so the uk is divided into 4 separate countries - the big bit called england that has wales on the side and scotland at the top with northern ireland off on its own island.. each country has multiple cultural identities.
broadly speaking (and i generalize) the wealth of england (and the uk generally) is concentrated in london, the 'rust belt' is in the middle namely birmingham and manchester and the north of england tends to be poorer.. scotland - where i'm from - is culturally rich but economically poor.
there is a long-standing argument about how wealthy scotland could have been if it had been able to keep all the north sea oil revenue instead of sending it to london.
Thanks Midwich..........only 10 minutes walk from my house.
When you walk in The Crooked House you feel drunk before you've had a drink. There's a wall in that pub where if you place a ball on the railings it appears to go up.
I often walk my dog down to there, but it's more for tourists than locals.
Paul
was discussing how secular references point to destruction of jerusalem in 586/7 with a jw.
used kiss method of counting back the kings from babylonian fall (according to wt daniel book on page 50-51, says it was 539.).
not sure what this person meant.
Hi Whyizit,
OnTheWay Out has said it for me,
Jeremiah ends the 70 years with the "account against the King of Babylon". Babylon fell in 539 B.C. indicating the start of this 70 year period against "these nations" could have been 609 B.C.
It most certainly could have been 609BCE when Babylon conquered Assyria, most scholars mark 609BCE as the starting point for Babylonian domination, hence Jeremiah 25, 'that these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.", implying a number of nations, rather than the nation of Israel.
Alternately, 70 years was the length of time the temple was in a state of disrepair, from the start of the siege on Jerusalem in 589 B.C. to the completion of the new temple in 519 B.C.
Here he has shown two explanations for the 70 year period, both reconcile a 587/6 destruction for Jerusalem. There are alternative explanations for a 70 year period that fit in with scripture.
What the JW's do is to set up a strawman argument. They tell you that that the 70 scriptural period HAS to begin with Jerusalems destruction and HAS to end with Cyrus announcing decree which they guesstimate at 537BCE, yet this is not what the scriptures actually say. The strawman is then set up that if you accept a 587/6 date you are then arguing with scripture, this is then presented as a scripture VS secular debate and ask you which one you should choose, the bible or secular sources.....typical strawman.
The reality is that alternative explanations for a 70 year period do harmonise with the bible and secular sources.
Paul
as mentioned in my very first port here, i will now give my story and some thoughts i have so far.. i ve been lurking here for about a month, before i registered.
well, a few months ago something like that would be unthinkable for me.. i was raised as a jw, and serve currently as an elder in a congregation.
i have family, also jws.
Hi Inbetween, welcome to the forum.
For me the issue was 1914, it is worth looking into. I always used to use the fact that JW's prohesied this date as reason enough to prove JW's had the truth.
Imagine my surprise when i found out that what they prophesied was Armageddon. That there were a number of dates of which 1914 was only one, that the thoughts on 1914 being an invisible presence, along with dropping the dates of 1874, 1925 happened in 1929. That the same guy (Nelson Barbour) who changed the adventist prophecy of 1874, coming up with an invisible presence idea after the event for the Adventists, then went on to write for the Watchtower. In fact Russel himself was an assistant editor on the Adventist magazine, Herald of the Morning, not just associated with the adventists i was led to believe, i was told that he just listened in on their meetings. It is no wonder that this invisible presence idea of 1914 was adopted.
Then to top it all Jerusalem wasn't even destroyed in 607BCE, but in 587/6BCE. Only JW's give the 607 date for the destruction of Jerusalem. They do this by counting 70 years backwards from 537BCE when they guesstimate Cyrus announced his decree....which shocked me, considering the certainty they place on 1914. They then present the 70 year period as a scriptural reason to acccept 607, verses a secular reason to accept 587/6....a complete strawman's argument as their are plenty of ways to harmonise a 70 year period with a 587/6 date, so this date then becomes both scriptural and secular. 1914 was completely debunked for me, if they were wrong about this, what else can they be wrong about i began to wonder.
I do not want to give all the details on 607-1914 as there is far too much to digest for someone having doubts, but it is well worth the effort of looking into.
Welcome to the forum, so Neo will you take the red pill or the blue pill, all we can offer is the truth about the troof?
Paul
i have decided to start another thread to the one on jesus...god or god's son?.
the reason for this is that i started a thread really looking for personal experiences, looking for reasons those with a jw background would change their opinion on this.
i wanted to know why those that believe that jesus is god now feel this, whereas years ago they didn't.. i think it's a shame the other thread has descended into a debate between trinitarians and jw apologists, whereas only a couple of posters responded to my original post.
I have read all of the posts with interest, sorry that i cannot respond to everyone but my time is limited today.
I want to pick up on Jaguarbass -
I have been through AA. I had the best 5 years of my life in AA.
I have heard you say this before, so do not understand why you don't try again. AA is always there, the door is always open. You are correct in keeping it simple, i have complicated the program. But now i am looking into aspects of Christianity because i no longer have the anger against God and biblical techings that i had 18 months ago. I feel comfortable with my progression through the steps, but those steps are always evolving and changing. If i can take something from a Christian perspective then in my view that would only add quality to how i work the AA program. I have considered visiting a church, i am curious as to why ex JW's who once felt so strongly on that Jesus is God's son have taken up the concept of Jesus as God.
This thread has given me a great insight into people's experience.
As regards the Reniia comments, i feel that she has respected the fact that i have asked for no debate on this thread. It seems as though when she posts a comment that many want to respond to her, which in turn makes her respond back. I saw this on the other thread and felt as though it wasn't just Reniia hijacking that particular thread. I do read her posts on here, it kind of reminds me what i used to believe, which is a good thing for me. But i do see many that use her as a bit of a punchbag for post JW anger. I admit that i am in the minority in that i enjoy her posts, maybe it's because i let go of my JW anger by working the AA program and appreciate that there are many here that still have that anger that i harbored for many years.
Paul
i have decided to start another thread to the one on jesus...god or god's son?.
the reason for this is that i started a thread really looking for personal experiences, looking for reasons those with a jw background would change their opinion on this.
i wanted to know why those that believe that jesus is god now feel this, whereas years ago they didn't.. i think it's a shame the other thread has descended into a debate between trinitarians and jw apologists, whereas only a couple of posters responded to my original post.
Thanks for the posts on this. I find it interesting that ex JW's have done a U-turn on this issue, it intrigues me as to why years ago we so valiantly defended Jesus as God's son, yet some now have done a 180.
Blacksheep, I will have to look at that Moffat's translation, i didn't realise it existed.
Narcissos, i am not a Christian either. I do see what you are saying with reference to 2 Cor 5:19
sspo, i agree that this board is not going to settle the issue. There are varying view points, but alot can be learned from here i feel.
Chalam, i like that write up, it seems comforting. Thanks for that. And thanks for your experience.
Satanus, thanks for your input. the question of God is something that's been unimportant for me for many years. It is only of late that i have been looking into this.
Deputy Dog, short, but to the point.
Amazing, i didn't realise that the Trinity doctrine was documented so far back. Thanks for your experience.
BTS, the Holy Spirit being a person is maybe something i will look into at another stage lol
Snowbird, I was like you in that i had the know it all JW beliefs. I always remember being 14 years old and knocked the door to a vicarage with my 15 year old friend. We spent a good half hour talking to the Vicar about John 1:1 and the Trinity doctrine. As we left he told us to place more emphasis on Jesus, but we felt as though we'd done ourselves justice. I will look at John 8:58 when i've finished here, thanks.
The research lady, Amazings post was a good read.
Lurker, i think i will bookmark this too.
Sacolton, i came to the conclusion to drop the WT filters, i think however after years of indoctrination, it still lingers.
Reniia, thanks for your input, i am one of the few here who actually welcome your posts and respect the fact that you are willing to engage. You will find previous posts where i have said that, in fact i was only talking to someone by email a couple of days ago about how i welcome your posts. I also repsect the fact that you show your photo. I do not agree that other religions have threw away the name Jehovah, as a more correct rendering is Yahweh which the NWT in it's foreward admit. you are correct that i have asked for one type of experience, due to the fact that i wondered why people have made a u-turn on this issue. I am only interested in this one issue, which is why i posted it, so i'm not really interested in other experiences. For instance if i posted a thread about marijuana experience, i wouldn't really be interested in people's experience of alcohol. I will not post my thoughts on another forum, as i want to know about an ex jw experience so i will post it here.
Thanks all so far for your posts, i would like to ask again that debating the trinity doctrine be left to the other thread as it is good to read about experience, rather than doctrine. I think it's good for others to see too, and would hate to see this thread get swallowed up in debate.
Paul
i have decided to start another thread to the one on jesus...god or god's son?.
the reason for this is that i started a thread really looking for personal experiences, looking for reasons those with a jw background would change their opinion on this.
i wanted to know why those that believe that jesus is god now feel this, whereas years ago they didn't.. i think it's a shame the other thread has descended into a debate between trinitarians and jw apologists, whereas only a couple of posters responded to my original post.
if you want to promote a purely themed debate on one religion I recommend you use the forum for that religion.
But i don't and you'd have read the OP properly you would have seen that i don't.
Paul
I learned how to clean a window without leaving smears! (and still can)
Paul
i have decided to start another thread to the one on jesus...god or god's son?.
the reason for this is that i started a thread really looking for personal experiences, looking for reasons those with a jw background would change their opinion on this.
i wanted to know why those that believe that jesus is god now feel this, whereas years ago they didn't.. i think it's a shame the other thread has descended into a debate between trinitarians and jw apologists, whereas only a couple of posters responded to my original post.
I have decided to start another thread to the one on Jesus...God or God's son?
The reason for this is that i started a thread really looking for personal experiences, looking for reasons those with a JW background would change their opinion on this. I wanted to know why those that believe that Jesus is God now feel this, whereas years ago they didn't.
I think it's a shame the other thread has descended into a debate between Trinitarians and JW apologists, whereas only a couple of posters responded to my original post. That thread has re-enforced to me that Christians just can't even agree on the most central of doctrine. The handful (well less than a handful) of decent posts in the thread have been swallowed up between the arguments amongst Christians on this site. Had i have posted the other thread on a site like JWS where the OP can lock the thread i would have done, as the majority of responses had nothing to do with the OP. I accept that the OP cannot control how a thread goes here, but i would ask for any debates to be kept to that thread, not this one, as i am asking for personal experience of how you came to this decision.
Please do not debate on this thread, i am asking for your personal experience of this, NOT trinitarian doctrine VS non-trinitarian doctrine. I have found the personal experiences of Christian friends interesting to me whilst i define my own spiritual path, but would like to hear those Christians with a JW background.
For those that don't know here, i am a recovering alcoholic and using AA. The AA program is based upon spirituality, which 18 months ago was a massive issue to me, previous threads will show. I enjoy growing along a spiritual path now, love to learn from different philosophies and there is part of me that wonders whether i can take something from Christianity, rather than reject it outright as i did years ago. I now have a great respect for the bible, can learn from it and can live by many of the principles within, the thing however that does stop me attending a church is that i don't accept the divinity of Christ, even though i think he was a great teacher and a great man.
So what CONVINCED you that Jesus is God?
Paul
I learnt from an early age how to do a tie.
Paul
following on from a post of sacolton's on a recent thread.
i hope he doesn't mind me cutting and pasting it as i want to examine it.. was jesus our god?
consider these two scriptures:.
Thanks Sylvia for your response to my questions on original post.
It's a shame that this thread has descended into a lengthy debate between Renaii's official WT position and those that believe in the trinity. Whereas only one or two posts have responded to the question on the original post.
I already know the WT scripted response and as nobody other than Sylvia and another poster (sorry can't remember who) has attempted to answer my questions on Acts and Ecclesiastes, i am outta here. In fact in some forums the OP has the power to lock the thread, i wish that was the case here.
Paul
