TC - You could purchase a copy of the AP story directly from AP by going to the following link and search for jehovah. The article is the one from May of this year.
Hoping4Change
JoinedPosts by Hoping4Change
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33
Use Catholic Abuse Settle to Attack JWs re:KN #37 & JW Abuse Cases
by Seeker4 ini was thinking earlier of how the recent mega-million dollar catholic settlement in la is an ideal opportunity, in letters to the editor in local newspapers, to highlight the hypocrisy of the witnesses in how they have handled similar abuse cases.
a couple of points that might be useful to make this applicable anywhere: .
1. in the kingdom news #37 tract distributed around the country last fall.
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Just Witnessed at my Door to an Elder and his Wife About Child Molestation
by flipper inhello all, just had an interesting conversation with a p.o.
elder and his wife who were leaving me a incognito invitation to the "follow the christ" convention.i declined the invitation, but told them i had an associated press article i'd like to leave with them about molestation settlements jw's made outside of court.
i asked if they were aware of this settlement.
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Hoping4Change
I mentioned the NWT, asking if he knew who the translators were and why they weren’t mentioned. He, as usual, mentioned humility.
I've been a little confused about how they expect this type of reply (the 'humilty' response) to actually hold any water. My response goes a little something like this: when we send our children to school, we expect the teachers who will be teaching our children to be verifiably and accurately trained. So if my child is to take a French or Spanish language class, I have every right to know and be able to call upon the credentials of those who would be teaching my children. I am sure most may not do so, but if we wanted to, we certainly could. It seems to me, the same should hold true for any Bible translator or teacher of the Bible. Humility can/should have nothing to do with telling who a given set of translators were; offering verifiable evidence of the training/credentials of the translators, and showing an interested one that the translators/teachers for a given work and subject area are indeed qualified to to be doing so. Who would send their child to school to learn French or Spanish from someone if the school was unwilling to offer up the evidence of a) who the teacher is (we cant know a teacher's name??) and b) what credentials that teacher has to be teaching the subject matter. When it comes to the Bible I use for study, I wrote a letter to to publishers and received a 2 page response with all the names of the members on the translating committee, a list of all the denominations of those members, and the underlying translation philosophy behind the work. Yes, I still have to put some trust in what I have being told, as I havent gone and looked up or called all the colleges and seminaries these people went to, but at least I know who they are and if I really wanted to, I am confident I could find out the training and what credentials each of those individuals hold. It's hard for me to accept that the WTBTS hides the members of its' translation committee and won't confirm who they are once they are found out (through other sources).
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JW's celebrating the largest national birthday of all -- you heard me!
by Fatfreek inmy non-jw son just called from another state.
i asked him if he's attending any fireworks display tomorrow in observance of our nation's birthday.
he laughed, knowing that i was digging the lack of birthday celebrations amongst jw's.
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Hoping4Change
At last night's meeting I overheard a number of people talking about where to go see fireworks. Is the rule for this particular holiday that 'so long as there are no flags or remembering of the history of America' involved, than everything else is ok?
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40
Comments You Will Not Hear at the 7-1-07 WT Study (SUFFERING END SOON)
by blondie incomments you will not hear at the 7-1-07 wt study (may 15, 2007, pages 21-25)(suffering soon to end).
where is the love?.
17) "god is love.
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Hoping4Change
Thanks Blondie. Maybe I was a little quick to reply, but I had just finished reading the article and then read Tim Keller's sermon (which I thought was good), went to Deuteronomy 29 and felt that the "How sad!" comment was basically saying, "9/11? Ha! We know why it happened, its becuase they rejected Jehovah" (like the Deuteronomy example), which really bothered me. I went back and read the article again and I guess maybe all that was perhaps meant by "How sad" was "9/11? Ha! We know why it happened and isnt it sad that no on else does." If that's all that was being implied in the article, than my bad. I still feel it was in poor taste (but not surpised) to lift Tim's comment out of context of his sermon and a poor choice of scripture to 'puff themselves up', given the close proximity to what was said in Deut.24:24-25.
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Comments You Will Not Hear at the 7-1-07 WT Study (SUFFERING END SOON)
by blondie incomments you will not hear at the 7-1-07 wt study (may 15, 2007, pages 21-25)(suffering soon to end).
where is the love?.
17) "god is love.
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Hoping4Change
When one pastor addressed an audience gathered to mark the anniversary of a devastating terrorist attack, he said: "We don't know the reason that God allows evil and suffering to continue." How sad! Are we not blessed to have insight into this subject? (Deuteronomy 29:29)
and now Deut.29:24-29 from the NWT
24 yes, all the nations will be bound to say, ‘Why did Jehovah do like this to this land? Why the heat of this great anger?’
25 Then they will have to say, ‘It was because they abandoned the covenant of Jehovah the God of their forefathers, which he concluded with them when he brought them out of the land of Egypt.
26 And they proceeded to go and serve other gods and to bow down to them, gods that they had not known and he had not apportioned to them.
27 Then Jehovah’s anger blazed against that land by bringing upon it the whole malediction written in this book.
28 Hence Jehovah uprooted them from off their soil in anger and rage and great indignation and threw them into another land as at this day.’
29 “The things concealed belong to Jehovah our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons to time indefinite, that we may carry out all the words of this law
Perhaps I am dense, but just exactly how does Deut.29:29 show that JW's are "blessed" on this subject? Is it me or doesnt using this example from Deuteronomy in relation to the 9/11 attacks to explain their "insight" into why God allows suffering suggest that (according to JWs) the terrroist attack occurred on the World Trade Center becuase everyone who was in there (and all their families) deserved to suffer becuase they werent or hadnt become JWs (i.e "they had abandoned the covenant with Jehovah")?
Am I off on this reasoning that they appear to be using? I sure hope so, becuase otherwise, it is a sly way of expressing some very repugnant beliefs.
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37
Arguments against Disfellowshipping
by TheListener ini would like a simple step by step explanation that refutes the disfellowshipping policy as practiced by jehovah's witnesses.. obviously, i don't agree with the policy but i have had trouble making my explanations clear and straightforward.. any help would be appreciated..
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Hoping4Change
(I just finished re-reading this before posting, and I guess it is more of an anti-shunning reflection, rather than an argument against disfellowshipping, but I'll leave it here anyways. Sorry if it seems off-topic)
I was just reading the 1 Cor example (for the zillionth time) last night, ignoring the during the drudge of the book study, and as I was reading, it struck me (in a way it hadnt before) that Paul said to put the man out so that SATAN could have his way with him, not so that the rest of the congregation could punish him by shunning him.
5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor5:5 NASB)
It wasnt for the congregation to 'actively' punish him anymore than to remove him from the church (clean out the old leaven). Yet, how is a 'brother who doesnt listen" supposed to be treated"
17 ......if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. (Matt18:17 NASB)
Once he was 'put out' for Satan, he obviously became 'part of the world', no longer a brother, no longer a member of the church, but just part of the world. Paul's instructions to the church re: those "of the world' was not to "judge them" :
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges.
(1Cor5:9-13)By putting such a one out of the church, the congregation is openly stating that such a one is no longer a brother (or sister), so Paul's admonition not to associate DOES NOT apply to those who are outside, who are "of the world", those who are not brothers, including the one who is removed from the church. Morover one's outside the church are EXACTLY the ones that members of the church are supposed to go to! For didnt Jesus goto and eat and drink with the sinners?
9 As Jesus went on from there, He saw a man called Matthew, sitting in the tax collector's booth; and He said to him, "Follow Me!" And he got up and followed Him.
10 Then it happened that as Jesus was reclining at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were dining with Jesus and His disciples.
11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?"
12 But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.
13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." (Matt9:9-13 NASB)
Further more, once one is outside, do you suppose it is proper to leave such a sheep alone, to totally forsake such a one to Satan's ways? Hasn't the one who has been put of the church been put out precisely becuase he has 'strayed' from the truth? Yet what is supposed to happen in such a case:
12 "What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? (Mat.18:12 NASB)
So basically I used the sickenly dull book study to truly reflect upon this whole disfellowshipping/shunning thing (again) and concluded (again) that while it may be that there do arise occassions where church members are to "not associate with a so-called brother" who continuously practices sin unrepentently and should stop calling a 'brother or sister' (i.e put out of the church) one who continuously practices sin unrepentently, it is completely unscriptual to judge or act towards such a person in the manner as taught by JWs. As a matter of fact, JWs go far beyond the admonition of scripture and do exactly the opposite of what they are supposed to do with regards to sinners and people 'of the world'.
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101
I've been studying with JW's for a few months..
by MichaelM ini've been studying with the jw's for a few months and i've attended a few meetings but things are feeling somewhat strange...i don't quite get the jist of things but i feel that i'm learning more of what the watchtower teachers and less of what the bible actually says.. i never open my bible.. i'm always reading the watchtower pamphlets.
i really like the people i've met in the congregation and the guy thats been doing the studies with me has been an awesome friend.. .
but i'm just having some issues.. i mean.. they translated their own bible to suit their own doctrines it seems.
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Hoping4Change
By the way, the Witnesses have an explanation for "failed" bible studies, too. They call them "goats".
jgnat - Do you have a reference/scan for this? I am curious to see for myself how I am sure they would regard me if I ever indulged them in an 'official' study. Thx!
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What's the intent of Mat.23:1-3 ?
by Hoping4Change inthen jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying: the scribes and the pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.
(mat.23:1-3 nasb).
i've been wondering a lot about what these verses.
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Hoping4Change
These are all good thoughts to help with some perspective on this. Thanks!
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I've been studying with JW's for a few months..
by MichaelM ini've been studying with the jw's for a few months and i've attended a few meetings but things are feeling somewhat strange...i don't quite get the jist of things but i feel that i'm learning more of what the watchtower teachers and less of what the bible actually says.. i never open my bible.. i'm always reading the watchtower pamphlets.
i really like the people i've met in the congregation and the guy thats been doing the studies with me has been an awesome friend.. .
but i'm just having some issues.. i mean.. they translated their own bible to suit their own doctrines it seems.
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Hoping4Change
I was told by the Witnesses to not trust my own heart. Because my heart is one of the strongest weaknesses that I have because we are imperfect and have inhereted sin.
How do you know that it isnt Holy Spirit itself that isnt instructing your heart and giving you the warnings you are feeling? If we were to never trust what we feel then you have absolutely NO chance of ever recieving Holy Spirit. No man, no organization can give you Holy spirit. Even JWs who consider themselves 'annointed' made that decision based upon a FEELING that they had, something they 'knew in their heart', that they are of the 'annointed class'. If you are not to trust your heart, and part of your heart (even if it is small) may be suggesting you should join, shouldnt you 'not trust' that feeling also? It is ridiculous reasoning to tell you that you cant ever trust your own heart. Our hearts are not %100 deceptive. Your 'friend' just doesnt like the fact that your heart is contrary to what he wants it to be.
As I mentioned in my other post, the parrallel between their reasoning and trying to get you to NOT trust yourself is EXACTLY the same pattern used by Child Abusers against their victims. Very, very frightening.
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August 15th Watchtower 2007: 1935 A GENTLE REMINDER
by AlphaOmega inlest you forget.... .
this provides another chance to highlight the change.. .
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Hoping4Change
After reflecting upon the actions of David, exactly what sins are 'unforgivable'? Or is it just that unrepentant sinners are unforgivable?