Posts by Pahpa

55

I think you may have confused some facts with regard to Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower Society. The two dates that the Watchtower has set for Christ return were 1874 and 1914. The other dates mentioned involved predictions of "the end" or Armageddon.

Also, Russell borrowed heavily from the Second Adventists....not the 7th Day Adventists. The SDA church was an offshoot of William Miller's movement even as the Second Adventists were. But they clearly went in different directions. As far as I know, there never has been any connection with the SDA church and the Watchtower.

Technically, "Jehovah's Witnesses" are connected with Rutherford, not Russell. Russell's followers were "Bible Students." Rutherford came up with the name of "Jehovah's Witnesses."

"Disfellowshipping" has nothing to do with "dismemberment." Otherwise, many of us would be missing limbs....

27

Ray Franz Comments on Y.M.C.A.

by compound complex in

ray franz states that, according to governing body decisions on matters of faith, fault found with certain of a religion's teachings makes said faith, in its totality, unacceptable to god.

therefore one's association in that religion renders one unclean.

as a consequence, a jehovah's witness would be disfellowshiped for joining the y.m.c.a.

Pahpa

compound complex

I think you may have misread Ray's comments. He is not advocating staying in the organization and "wait upon God." Rather he pointing to the PARADOX of the Watchtower's reasoning on this matter.

"Paradoxically, when inidividuals associated with Jehovah's Witnesses find some of their own organization's teachings to be unscriptural or its practices to be unchristian, they are told that they should not be overly critical, should not expect perfection, should stick with the organization, 'waiting on God' eventually to clear matter up."

This is the mindset of the Watchtower....not Ray Franz.

5

My reinstatment letter is in

by nonamegiven in

well, sunday after the public talk i turned in my letter to be let back in the club.

i changed it a little bit from what you saw in my post a while back.

i added some info to let them know that i do attend meetings while on the road for work.

Pahpa

nonamegiven

I hope things work out well for you. But be prepared to be viewed with suspicion by many in the congregation and treated as a "pariah" by some. Also, the elders may hesitate to reinstate you without giving you another interrogation to see if your "repentence" is "sincere." It probably will mean regular attendance of the meetings. They realize that many make an attempt to return primarily because of the shunning rules that separate family members. The main point they will be searching for is whether or not you accept the Watchtower Society as God's organization and channel of communication. If you get past all this, you may have a chance for reinstatement.

13

Ex-Jehovahs WitnessesAngels With Dirty Faces?

by The wanderer in

jw
friends

ex-jehovahs witnessesangels with dirty faces?anyone who is familiar with the jehovahs witnesses .

religion knows how the watchtower society views fallen angels.. .

they view individuals who leave the truth as weak malcontents that share no appreciation for god or spiritual matters.

Pahpa

Wanderer

I believe that the Watchtower Society has lost some of its best and brightest members. (Ray Franz, Ed Dunlap, Jim Penton, etc.) Many of these were not "malcontents." They wanted a serious investigation of the teachings of the Watchtower to see if they really were Bible based. They had no intention of leaving the organization. Rather, they were forced out by a paranoid leadership.

It is true that some leaving the organization do so for a selfish purposes. They don't want to be morally restricted by Chrisitan principles. These not only reject the Watchtower but also the Bible as well. They want an excuse for leading immoral lives.

Unfortunately, when the Watchtower condemns former members it paints with a very broad brush. It serves to separate any of its present members from doing some serious research into the real "truth."

2

Early Judicial Settings

by Pahpa in

unlike the secret meetings that the watchtower conducts for judicial matters, its apparent that the early church was open to all members.

on the matter of gentiles being circumcised, it would seem that the entire congregation at jerusalem was present as matters were discussed.

(acts 15:4,5, 12) also, in the case of the incestuous man in corinth, paul's appeal was to the entire congregation.

Pahpa

Unlike the secret meetings that the Watchtower conducts for judicial matters, its apparent that the early church was open to all members. On the matter of Gentiles being circumcised, it would seem that the entire congregation at Jerusalem was present as matters were discussed. (Acts 15:4,5, 12) Also, in the case of the incestuous man in Corinth, Paul's appeal was to the entire congregation. (1 Co. 5:4) And if the man is the same as mentioned in 2 Co. 2:6 he notes that "the punishment inflicted on him BY THE MAJORITY is sufficient for him." ( Does this imply that there was a minority that did not agree with the punishment and kept associating? )

The involvment of the entire congregation would insure that the actions of the leaders were above suspicion and that fairness and justice were being dispensed. But the clandestine meetings of the Watchtower leaders are more like the Star Chamber procedures.

What are your thoughts on this subject?

33

Unbled meat.

by DJK in

what is the (or your) definition of unbled meat as described in 1 samuel 14:32-35 where saul fed his army unbled meat.

i would assume that his army did not travel with a herd of sheep and the meat they ate would be from the wild.. i am a hunter and when i harvest a deer, i do not hang it and cut the throat.

i have already dressed (disemboweled) the deer and that includes removing the heart from the inside which allows a total bloodletting.. there are jdubs who hunt and it is quite obvious to game officials who they are because they will check in deer with the throat cut.

Pahpa

I don't believe that the Christian writers of the scriptures felt that all covenants in the Hebrew Scriptures had been nullified. The covenant made with Noah and his descendants about "blood" (Genesis 9:4) was understood to be still binding upon Christians. (Acts 15:19,20) And the Abrahamic Covenant about the blessing of all mankind was being fulfilled through Christ. The covenant that was becoming obsolete with the advent of the Messiah was the Old Mosaic Covenant.

142

This board is not for me.

by Wafe in

jw
friends

when i came to this board, i thought that it was for encouragement amoung people who had been treated badly by the wtbts, i did not understand that people were going to come here and bash god, his son and the bible.

i could understand some embitterment over religion but some of you people are down right insulting.

not to mention the fact that i have tried to contact others on the board and have had my messages ignored.. .

Pahpa

Wafe

Sadly many who have left the organization have been so devasted by their experiences in the Watchtower Society that they feel the need to reject God, Christ and the Bible. Perhaps, it is because they equated the Watchtower with their faith in God. In any case, they are wounded and hurting. And they lash out at those who they feel responsible.

It reminds me of the small child who, in anger, may say to parents "I hate you" or "you're not my parents." In time the anger may cool and the love may return.

Christians use patience and kindness when dealing with people who are hurting and suffering.

13

The field service report

by James Free in

jw
friends

whenever i read the bible, about prayers and giving gifts in secret, and not letting the right hand know etc.

it became clear to me that handing in a report with my name on was unscriptural.

my elder friend even agreed - but said we gotta do it anyway.

Pahpa

I think the thing that I resented the most about the field service reports was the assumption that one could tell another person's spirituality by examining them. Whenever a circuit overseer visited he would spend time going over these reports. From them he would determine who was "weak" spiritually.

There was no consideration about all the other "good works" a person may have done in the congregation. I remember one sister who felt she wasn't qualified to go from house to house. But she was always the first to call whenever someone was sick to see if she could help. And she always was very hospitable and kind to others in the congregation. Yet, she was considered "weak" because of her field service report.

It was clear that the only thing the overseers cared about was the field ministry.

11

WTS's two 'classes' of Christians is completely artificial

by yaddayadda in

please read the below excerpt from a 1996 questions from readers on the difference between the little flock and other sheep.

the article makes it very clear that both classes receive the holy spirit and there is absolutely no discernible difference whatsoever between the 'anointed' and the 'other sheep'.

the society is well aware there is no practical difference at all between these two so-called 'classes' of jw christians.

Pahpa

Most Bible commentaries agree that the "other sheep" mentioned by Jesus (John 10:16) were the Gentile believers who were invited into the family of God starting with the conversion of Cornelius and his family. (Acts 10) These Gentiles joined with the early Jewish Christians to become "one flock" under "one shepherd."

The problem with Jehovah's Witnesses is that they are locked into the peculiar interpretation of the Watchtower Society. Russell and Rutherford both decided that Christ's return was invisible. Rutherford changed the date of the event from 1874 to 1914. Based on this false assemption, it was easy for Rutherford to propound any "new light" that fit his purposes. So, Jehovah's Witnesses have inherited this "legacy" and are stuck with it.

35

Christians - Does a JW baptism count as Christian?

by AK - Jeff in

i tend to accept that mine did - i was baptised prior to the changes that made one a 'watchtower disciple'.

my dedication was and is to god - prob the reason i am finally out.. opinions?.

jeff .

Pahpa

It would probably largely depend on your understanding at the time of baptism. I was baptized three times in my life. Once as a baby in the Methodist church, again as a teenager in the Baptist church and then as a young adult as a JW. I discount the baptism as a baby because I feel that it does involve a committment. I view the baptism in the Baptist church as valid because I did accept Christ as my personal savior And my baptism as a JW enlarged my understanding of the Father in the whole process of salvation.

Now, there is the issue of recent baptisms of JWs. Part of the vows involve loyalty to the Watchtower organization. This should never play a role in one's dedication since it was done in the early church "in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit" ....not in the name of some human organization.