Posts by Pahpa

43

Take out your bibles and tell me......with the proper verses

by JH in

should one adore and pray to jehovah or to jesus?.

Pahpa

It's an old game. One can take Bible verses to prove or to disprove doctrines like the trinity. (Ex.: "I and my father are one." vs. "My father is greater than I.") It largely depends upon the viewpoint of the reader. But the fact that the trinity doctrine took centuries to define should, at least, bring into question just how important that doctrine really is. In the fourth century when the controversy tore the Catholic Church apart the penalty decided by Constantine seemed to be exile for either Arians and Trinitarians. Both were in favor of the emperor and his son at one time or another.

I agree with Verodico that the earliest Jewish Christians had no concept of the trinity doctrine and that the doctrine slowly developed with the advent of pagan Gentiles coming into the church. This fact again would bring into question the claim that the trinity is the "central doctrine of Christianity." If anything, it bespeaks of the effort of the Gentile leaders to disclaim the Jewish roots of their faith. What better strategy to alienate the Jewish believers than to proclaim Christ as God....something that would be repulsive to any Jew.

18

"How The Governing Body Is Organized" - WT May 15 2008

by BluesBrother in

i know this was covered in fokyc's posting of the whole mag, but i felt it was worth showing seperately.

it gives an insight into how they work these days.. .

Pahpa

I wonder how the apostles would react to this arrangement of committees or, for that matter of fact, to the whole idea of a world wide publishing empire? They did not feel the need of distributing literature to build faith.

Paul and the other evangelizers counted on word of mouth witnessing. One senses that Paul did not need to consult with a "governing body" to perform his ministry. While he accepted the commendations of the apostles, he did not need their permission. He said he was directed by "holy spirit." That was enough!

343

I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

by Witness 007 in

some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

Pahpa

Because many of us disagree with the Watchtower's policies and prophesies, it doesn't mean that all of its doctrinal understanding is wrong. It's views on the trinity, soul and hell are not exclusive to the Watchtower organization. In fact, it borrowed many of its teachings from other sources that predate the Watchtower. Bible scholars have argued doctrine for centuries. Many reached different conclusions than those who accept what is now considered "orthodox."

Even the wide divergent views on other doctrinal points (salvation, baptism, sin, etc.) among those orthodox churches are evidence that they are not the monolith of faith they profess. In the end, it is up to each individual to make a determinatiion of what is truth. In the end, it seems that "deeds" not "doctrine" are the most important factor in God's eyes.

18

How the WT will allow all to partake

by yknot in

jw
friends

random memorial mainstreaming thought.

is it possible to allow all to partake and save face and authority?.

then it occured to me that yes, and quite simply too.. ahh new .

Pahpa

I'm not really sure that this will happen. Having the title of "anointed" is still a mark of superiority among JWs. Those in the leadership would find it difficult to give up this special status. It is part of their authority over other members even though they have downplayed the significance of it for those in the congregation who choose to partake at the Memorial. Leaders are always reluctant to give up any advantage they have over others.

20

If Jesus existed perhaps he only died for the Jews back then

by LouBelle in

jw
friends

this is just something i've been thinking about.

jesus was their messiah, he died for the jews back then and thus his "blood" doesn't automatically wipe out the sins of every human being.

we've got to take responsibilities for the sins we commit - so in order for "saving" we should "die" to the flesh every day.. thoughts?.

Pahpa

LouBelle

Early Christians understood that Jesus came to save the world, not just the Jews. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." John 3:16,17

You may not agree with this Christian teaching. But it was clearly one that was and is held by Christians down through the centuries to the present time.

20

Your comments on this Memorial Bible reference (1 Cor. 11:26)

by OnTheWayOut in

(1 corinthians 11:26) for as often as you eat this loaf and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the lord, until he arrives.. here's mine.

i was told that i have an earthly hope.

i won't eat from the loaf or drink from the cup, so i won't.

Pahpa

We have to understand that this partaking of the Memorial emblems evolved with the changing doctrine of the Watchtower Society. Russell taught that the "great multitude" were a secondary heavenly group. All were invited to partake. But Rutherford created the two class system, earthly and heavenly, that excluded those who claimed to have an earthly hope from even attending at first. Later, they were invited to become observers to the celebration but denied partaking.

So, as we can see, it was not based upon any scriptural foundation. Rather, it was a feeble attempt to explain away the influx of interested persons when it had been decided that the "heavenly calling" had stopped. In contrast to all of this, Paul seems to indicate in his letter to the Corinthians that members were expected to partake unless they were "unworthy" for some unspecified reason...perhaps because of not discerning the significance of the celebration. (1 Co. 11) In any case, there is no mention of two classes of Christians.

2

WT Extremism?

by R.Crusoe in

jw
friends

sanctioning family breakups to be expected and godsent has to be one of the most fundamental aspects to wt dynamics that leaves permanent lifelong rifts in thousands if not millions of peoples lives.. the circumstances under which they advocate this are various!.

i know they do it with new converts telling them jesus came to divide and not unite - non jw family - unless they follow along!.

and with jw family who shunn leavers - tempted away by non other than an imaginary bad boy - satan!

Pahpa

While it is an accepted fact that religious differences do separate families, I don't think that Jesus and the early Christians meant that the Christian believer would initiate the separation. They were stating the consequences of how unbelievers, even family members, would create the divide because of not accepting the new found belief.

In contrast, the Watchtower has encouraged its members to shun unbelievers especially those that were once part of their organization. This cruel policy is "extreme". One might remember that some years ago the policy was different. A JW could associate with disfellowshipped/disassociated members as long as they did not discuss religion. This was a much more reasonable (and humane) policy than the one currently followed by JWs now.

9

OBVES and JCannon: Willing to wager on 2011?

by inkling in

as they say, talk is cheap.

this seems to hold true for prophecy.. obves and people who buy into his and h camping's end times prediction.

may talk a lot, but in the end all they are wagering on 2011 is a. measure of empty hope and perhaps what's left of their reputation.

Pahpa

It seems incredible to me that anyone who has been associated with the Watchtower and left the organization would again be inticed to dabble in "end time" predictions. Didn't we learn anything from our experiences of Watchtower failures to automatically reject this sort of foolishness? How can anyone seriously consider these wild speculations?

28

That Martin Luther? He wasnt so bad, says Pope

by Deputy Dog in

from the timesmarch 6, 2008 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3492299.ece according to vatican insiders the pope will argue that luther, who was excommunicated and condemned for heresy, was not a heretic.

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Pahpa

Nark

Clearly John's messages to the seven churches (Revelation) are evidence of the breakdown in the early church by the end of the first century. By the fourth century, one only has to compare the paganized rituals and beliefs of the compromised church to the simplicity and purity of the apostolic church to discern just how far removed it was from the early Christian organization. There is no doubt that sincere Christians remained as "wheat" among those "tares" in those corrupted churches. But the gathering of them would not be until Christ's return.

Historically, the course that the Catholic church (Roman and Orthodox) took was not a christian one, If we judge these churches by their "fruits" it is not difficult for even a person with average intelligence to see just how far they strayed from the teachings of Christ.

28

That Martin Luther? He wasnt so bad, says Pope

by Deputy Dog in

from the timesmarch 6, 2008 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3492299.ece according to vatican insiders the pope will argue that luther, who was excommunicated and condemned for heresy, was not a heretic.

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Pahpa

StAnn

It is clear from Scripture that Christ and the apostles foretold the corruption and the fragmentation of the church. History confirms that this is exactly what happened. By the time of Constantine the Catholic church compromised with the secular powers and sought to build an earthly empire of its own. The break in the Catholic church between the Orthodox and Roman churches was precisely over whose authority had precedence. This controversary continues to this day. And each claim to have apostolic authority on their side.

In contrast, Jesus foretold that true Christians would remain scattered as wheat among tares until he would return again. Only then would they be gathered together under the leadership of Christ. The church's deplorable record of persecution, torture and murder is far more than just human imperfection. It is the evidence that the church did not follow Christ's teachings and that it lacked the "love" that Jesus said would identify his people.