Earnest

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Posts by Earnest

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  61

  Flood Legends "Proof" of Global Flood...

  by AlanF in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the march 1, 2002 watchtower contains a couple of articles on noah's flood and the application of this legend to "our day".

  thrust of the articles is first to show that the flood was a real, earthwide event, and then to scare ignorant readers into accepting the jw message by claiming that our world is about to undergo a similar divine punishment.

  pretty standard fare for long time jw observers.. in the past the watchtower society has published extensive material purporting to show that a global flood occurred a few thousand years ago.

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  Earnest

  Seeker,

  I have some good news and some bad news. The good news is that I found the reference to pseudo-Justin. It is contained in a treatise described as "Replies to the Orthodox" and is ascribed by Harnack to Diodorus of Tarsus. At any rate, there is little doubt it was written after the Council of Nicaea. It seems that he did not altogether concur with the idea of a limited flood but quite obviously there were some who did. The bad news is that I could not find an English translation and my school-boy Latin is a bit patchy so I leave the translation to the classical scholars in our midst :

  Quaest. XXXIV: Si, ut nonnulli dicunt, diluvium in omni terrae loco non fuit, sed in iis, quae tunc homines incolebant, quomodo verum est aquam evectam fuisse supra altissimos quosque montes quindecim cubitis ?

  Resp.: Verum esse non videtur non in omni loco diluvum exstitisse, nisi forte decliviora fuerunt loca, in quibus diluvium exstitit, caeteris terrae locis.

  In addition to this reference there were some exemptions by other early writers to the universality of the Flood :

  1. The earthly paradise was exempted by many, irrespective of its location on the top of a high mountain or elsewhere;
  2. The same must be said of the place in which Methuselah must have lived during the Flood according to the Septuagint reading;
  3. Augustine knows of writers who exempted the mountain Olympus from the Flood, though he himself does not agree with them.

  I would suggest that the lack of discussion on this subject in the writings of the early christians is simply because they knew so little of the physical earth they did not need to address these issues to the extent we do today. Nevertheless, it is interesting that they could make exceptions without offending tradition. Does this mean that your baptism is still valid if you were not entirely submerged at the time ?

  Earnest

  "Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" - Rev. Charles Dodgson
• 
  61

  Flood Legends "Proof" of Global Flood...

  by AlanF in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the march 1, 2002 watchtower contains a couple of articles on noah's flood and the application of this legend to "our day".

  thrust of the articles is first to show that the flood was a real, earthwide event, and then to scare ignorant readers into accepting the jw message by claiming that our world is about to undergo a similar divine punishment.

  pretty standard fare for long time jw observers.. in the past the watchtower society has published extensive material purporting to show that a global flood occurred a few thousand years ago.

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  Earnest

  Seeker, that is what I understand but I don't want to misrepresent pseudo-Justin. I got the information from a book I have called the Legend of noah by Don Cameron Allen and it doesn't have much detail on this quote. I will check up the reference at the library tomorrow and let you know exactly what pseudo-Justin wrote.

  Earnest

  "Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" - Rev. Charles Dodgson
• 
  61

  Flood Legends "Proof" of Global Flood...

  by AlanF in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the march 1, 2002 watchtower contains a couple of articles on noah's flood and the application of this legend to "our day".

  thrust of the articles is first to show that the flood was a real, earthwide event, and then to scare ignorant readers into accepting the jw message by claiming that our world is about to undergo a similar divine punishment.

  pretty standard fare for long time jw observers.. in the past the watchtower society has published extensive material purporting to show that a global flood occurred a few thousand years ago.

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  Earnest

  Seeker, the early Christians were faced with the same quandary as fundamentalists face today, namely that if the water covered the highest mountains to a depth of fifteen cubits that is an awful lot of water. If, however, (as Pseudo-Justin suggests) the Flood only affected the inhabited earth then the highest mountains would only refer to those mountains that were populated. If the majority of the population settled in valleys then that diminishes the problem even further. It is not a very convincing hypothesis but at the time faith carried more weight than it does today.

  Earnest

  "Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" - Rev. Charles Dodgson
• 
  61

  Flood Legends "Proof" of Global Flood...

  by AlanF in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the march 1, 2002 watchtower contains a couple of articles on noah's flood and the application of this legend to "our day".

  thrust of the articles is first to show that the flood was a real, earthwide event, and then to scare ignorant readers into accepting the jw message by claiming that our world is about to undergo a similar divine punishment.

  pretty standard fare for long time jw observers.. in the past the watchtower society has published extensive material purporting to show that a global flood occurred a few thousand years ago.

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  Earnest

  Seeker, you asked whether there are any records of the early Christians putting forth the argument that the flood was limited in scope before science proved a global flood never happened.

  By and large the Christian apologists argued that the Biblical flood was global. However, pseudo-Justin related that some say the water only inundated the inhabited parts of the earth. In answer to the argument that scripture records the water covered the highest mountains, he replies that perhaps only the valleys were occupied. (Quaestiones et responsiones ad orthodoxos,PG,VI,1282).

  Alan, I have a step-daughter who has recently got her provisional driving license and know just what you mean by "uttering screeching sounds", more like death rattles in my case. At the moment she is away at college but I await the Easter vacation with trepidation.

  I think the only point I would add to what I've already said is that you cannot have your cake and eat it. If you are going to maintain that the absence of an Egyptian Flood legend is evidence that there was no such flood, then you cannot reasonably maintain that the plethora of such legends elsewhere is not evidence of a Flood. I think the truth is that the legends or lack of them are circumstantial evidence and have to be read in conjunction with the geological record, ice core samples and the record of magnetic fluctuation in the earth's crust.

  Earnest

  "Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" - Rev. Charles Dodgson
• 
  61

  Flood Legends "Proof" of Global Flood...

  by AlanF in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the march 1, 2002 watchtower contains a couple of articles on noah's flood and the application of this legend to "our day".

  thrust of the articles is first to show that the flood was a real, earthwide event, and then to scare ignorant readers into accepting the jw message by claiming that our world is about to undergo a similar divine punishment.

  pretty standard fare for long time jw observers.. in the past the watchtower society has published extensive material purporting to show that a global flood occurred a few thousand years ago.

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  Earnest

  moxy:

  I found this described as a cosmogonic fragment from the "Book of the Dead" :

  Furthermore I shall ruin all that I have made.
  This earth will appear (?) as an abyss,
  In (or as) a flood as in its primeval condition.
  I [Nu] am the one remaining from it together with Osiris.
  My forming is (then) made to me among other (?) serpents
  Which men never knew,
  Which the gods never saw.

  However, I couldn't identify what fragment it came from and don't know how reliable it is. Interesting nevertheless.

  Earnest

  "Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" - Rev. Charles Dodgson
• 
  61

  Flood Legends "Proof" of Global Flood...

  by AlanF in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the march 1, 2002 watchtower contains a couple of articles on noah's flood and the application of this legend to "our day".

  thrust of the articles is first to show that the flood was a real, earthwide event, and then to scare ignorant readers into accepting the jw message by claiming that our world is about to undergo a similar divine punishment.

  pretty standard fare for long time jw observers.. in the past the watchtower society has published extensive material purporting to show that a global flood occurred a few thousand years ago.

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  2. 
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  Earnest

  Alan,

  While I do not agree with everything you say I withdraw any implication of cowardice in the light of your teaching your daughter to drive.

  Your revelation (to me at any rate) that the Egyptians had no legend of a flood is quite a mystery. Just as the fact that a civilization has a legend of a global flood does not prove in itself that such a flood took place, so the lack of such a legend does not prove it did not. But I would have expected there to be such a legend simply because it was current in the Middle East, and (as you said) "particularly entertaining or frightening legends propagate easily from culture to culture."

  I have come across a few references which might allude to such a flood. Frederick Filby suggests that "...the ship of Isis and the chest or coffin of Osiris which floated on the waters for a year are confused Egyptian recollections of the Flood" in his book The Flood Reconsidered: A Review of the Evidence of Geology, Archeology, Ancient Literature and the Bible, Zondervan, 1977, Fifth Printing, p.106. In addition, in Egyptian mythology Nu [with overtones of the Sumerian Anu and Noah] was the god of waters who sent an inundation to destroy mankind. (Andrew Tomas, Atlantis from Legend to Discovery, London: Sphere Books, Ltd., 1972, p. 25.) Nu and his consort Nut were deities of the firmament and the rain. Nu was identified with the primeval watery mass of heaven, his name also meaning "sky." (Lewis Spence, Myths and Legends of Egypt, London: George C. Haffap & Co., Ltd., 1915.)

  But even if these are allusions to a flood the question still remains as to why there is so little in Egyptian literature on the subject. The most reasonable explanation I have come across is that because they had their own flood from the Nile every year, they couldn't attribute the beginning of everything to such a common event.

  Earnest

  "Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" - Rev. Charles Dodgson
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  12

  The outline for last weeks Blood Card talk

  by Kent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  outline for service meeting: benefiting from kind provisions .

  take a look at: http://watchtower.observer.org/apps/pbcs.dll/artikkel?nocache=1&dato=20020124&kategori=news&lopenr=201240001&ref=ar.

  this is the latest "new light", and this subject has been discussed all over the board, i've heard.. instead of claiming all and everything, i feel it's much better to produce evidence to what the rules really are - and then the jw apologists can simply shut up and accept facts.. i will be interested in comments.. yachyd da.

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  Earnest

  SS,

  You may be interested in a previous thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=18930&site=3 which provided the context of Fred Franz's statement.

  Earnest

  "Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" - Rev. Charles Dodgson
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  2

  Uk Health Care Advance Directive form, and the Soc

  by Kent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  [h3]uk health care advance directive form, and the societies instructions[/h3.

  notice in the guide page 3 par 14, they say "no lawyers are necessary".

  http://watchtower.observer.org/apps/pbcs.dll/artikkel?nocache=1&dato=20020124&kategori=jwandmedicine2&lopenr=201240002&ref=ar.

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  Earnest

  Thanks for providing this, Kent. But I do think your comment Notice in the guide Page 3 par 14, they say "No Lawyers are necessary" is misleading.

  Anyone who cares to read it is aware that it immediately adds "But feel free to consult with anyone who might be able to help, including an elder, a lawyer, or a doctor." It is quite clear the guide is not discouraging legal consultation but simply saying it is not essential.

  Earnest

  "Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" - Rev. Charles Dodgson
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  19

  elder commits suicide.....need advice

  by Nat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  hey everybody,.

  my sister-in-law's brother took his life sunday afternoon.

  it has been devastating to her and her family.

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  Earnest

  I also lost my dad to suicide, Nat, and without any reservation I would say Go. There is no need to say anything to anyone there. They will know how much it means for you to be there. A card or letter would also provide some comfort which it is not always possible to share at the time of the funeral.

  Earnest
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  12

  Underwater civilisation discovered

  by ISP in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  interesting story developing on the matter of a civilisation that was submerged due to globally rising sea levels....global flood?

  the city is believed to predate the harappan civilisation.

  by bbc news online's tom housden .

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  Earnest

  Great minds indeed, ISP...I was glad you posted the thread as it confirmed what I thought I'd heard about this 'civilization' being submerged. I do treat reports of lost civilizations with a certain amount of caution as it makes good copy for the newspapers and provides funding for film-makers! And of course anyone who believes in the scriptures needs to balance their desire to read of evidence of the flood and an older civilization with verifiable archaeology and geology. But this particular report had a ring of truth to it, especially the reference to enormous foundations. I am sure we will hear more about this now that the Indian government is taking an interest and will possibly provide funding for further excavation.

  Earnest

  "Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" - Rev. Charles Dodgson