Posts by AllTimeJeff

322

God and Suffering

by AK - Jeff in

a few weeks back, in the midst of the haiti tragedy, much discussion took place in cyberland about the tolerance [or indeed the insistence on] suffering by a loving god.

the furor over haiti has settled a bit [as unfortunately most tragedy is wont to do far too quickly in the human mind], but this persistent matter continues to chew at my subconscience.

today i came across this:.

AllTimeJeff

If we proceed on the basis that God exists, then only two possibilities: either God is wrong or we are.

Hey BTS, I promise you that you and I won't be arguing or debating tonight. I don't want to. However, I would like to respectfully disagree with your entire last response based on the false dilema you have presented.

First, we do not have to proceed on the basis that God exists. If we do, we must have some evidence not of a creater, but of a personality.

I have evidence that the builder built my house, I have no idea if he loves me or cares about my suffering.

So if you want to say "I believe in creation and in it, I see god." Great. Doesn't mean he cares.

Secondly, and I can't stress this enough, God is silent. BTS, you are doing God's talking via your defense, via the raising of doubt in what I think are legitimate questions.

And what if "we" are wrong. How are "we" wrong? Everytime someone asks "Where is god?" the answer is complicated, abstract theoligcal explanations based on scrolls dating thousands of years old, and you wonder why "we" pull out our hair at the dialouge.

Having said that, I have had my say. I do understand why many do put faith in god, and it isn't my point to dissuade you. What I take exception to is the efforts to dissuade AK Jeff, myself and others, as if we are just clearly missing something so obvious, when your answer is in fact the last thing from obvious.

Anyway, thats all I wanted to say. I find the theological aspects on the subject evil and the existence of god fascinating, and I read it frequently. However, if one were to be honest, then one would have to conclude that answers are not readily available to point to.

If its complicated, that only tells me, that the answer isn't really an answer.

322

God and Suffering

by AK - Jeff in

a few weeks back, in the midst of the haiti tragedy, much discussion took place in cyberland about the tolerance [or indeed the insistence on] suffering by a loving god.

the furor over haiti has settled a bit [as unfortunately most tragedy is wont to do far too quickly in the human mind], but this persistent matter continues to chew at my subconscience.

today i came across this:.

AllTimeJeff

I know this is a sensitive subject, because a question will always threaten belief when an apparent answer doesn't exist.

When I say, apparent answer, it means one that is obvious and that doesn't require an interpretation.

So tell me God loves me, because your holy book says so. I at best can only take your word for it, because I have no evidence of a personality showing love. God sure is leaving you all in the lurch.

So for my theistic friends, I say, whatever works for you, thats great. I truly don't mean to mock your beliefs.

But I am wondering that age old question, one that to me is the essential question, "Where is god?"

That is very deep, I don't even mean to discuss it here to hijack this thread. But I would like to point out a couple of observations, so hopefully that some more reasonable god fearing people can understand the angst and the anger at "god".

First of all, God is not doing a thing. God is being defended by you. A person, a non godlike one. Which leads me to wonder, are you defending your idea and worldview because they are so important to you that you cannot consider questions because they could shake your belief?

Perry, when I see you jump from being a JW to your now stated beliefs, I question you only on the certitude you display and lack of respect for other people's questions and beliefs. I question you because you don't in any of your comments empathize with those who question or their reasons why. You argue as if we are arguing over the color of a piece of furniture we are both staring at, instead of the abstract argument of "god's love" and the question of suffering and evil. These aren't subjects that have questions with a simple yes or no answer.

And honestly Perry, you are defending god, and you are defending your beliefs, but you most certainly haven't proven anything. I must point out, God is leaving you out to dry, just like so many others. In all of the debates you involve yourself in, you fail to prove anything regarding your beliefs, other then you seem damned determined to point out that everyone is wrong for not believing in god/Jesus the way you do.

Honestly Perry, do I have to take your word for it? Because thats all you offer is your testimony, your word, your explanation, your interpretation. Thats all you got.

I read AK Jeff's subjects with great interest, as they are close to my heart. I usually have little to offer in the way of a solid direction or answer, and I sense AK Jeff that you are on your own quest, and use this board to work some things out for yourself. If I am wrong, I am probably projecting, because when I start threads like this for discussions and debates, that I what I try to do. I find your questions rational and relevant, and I wish for you at some point in your life the peace that you deserve to have, even if that peace involves laying down the question for a while.

322

God and Suffering

by AK - Jeff in

a few weeks back, in the midst of the haiti tragedy, much discussion took place in cyberland about the tolerance [or indeed the insistence on] suffering by a loving god.

the furor over haiti has settled a bit [as unfortunately most tragedy is wont to do far too quickly in the human mind], but this persistent matter continues to chew at my subconscience.

today i came across this:.

AllTimeJeff

Perry, you are in my mind, the Sarah Palin of nut case conservatives. Keep talking, you make being your kind of "Christian" less and less appealing the more you share your profound frontal lobe activity. (I am being generous there.)

When I asked earlier in this thread why evil needed explaining, to assume that it exists, I did this with the full knowledge that you totally missed AK Jeff's point of the thread.

Then you continue to assert that we are born enemies of god, that this is proven. Dear lord man! Proven how? With a copy of your damn holy book and your idiotic interpretations of it?

You are changing the subject. The original premise is why suffering is allowed by a supposedly omnipotent loving god. Your insensitive, moronic, stupid, oxygen wasting answer is to blame mankind for being born in a sinful state.

How in the world you cannot see how much YOU are acting like a JW right now boggles the mind.

Jesus would be ashamed of you.

19

Why would he care?

by brainwashed-from-birth in

i have been going thru some very hard times lately.

anger and confusion.

i can't see the point in it all.

AllTimeJeff

My advice is that some very powerful emotional tools that we humans need have been hijacked by organized religion.

Faith, hope, and love.

Is it easy to seperate from organized religion these 3 important traits that make up such a big part of the human experience? No. But these 3 things are not the exclusive provence of religion.

The important thing to realize is that you can have your own personal version and definition of "spirituality" without god or religion being shoved down your throat.

31

To what degree due you think "Internet killed the "Jehovah's Witness" radio star."

by Witness 007 in

i remember getting my first crapy computer for $200 bucks and clicking on the internet for the first time....i said to myself: "i may just look up my jehovah's witness brothers on here.....free minds watching the watchtower hmmm .

so the nails in my faith coffin began to be hammered in rip.

so how big an influence was the net in your leaving?.

AllTimeJeff

I looked, pretty sure I would know what I would find on the internet. If they were soooo afraid of what would happen to my faith if I read even a paragraph, a story, and article, I knew some if it had to be true.

You see, I already stepped in JW dog shit, and some of it was still in my shoes, so to speak.

I already knew that opposers were out there. When I officially started to lurk here, and read up on freeminds, I knew what I would write about: Problems, false prophecies, lies, and damn lies.

Which is what I found.

20

"If Christianity Doesnt Matter Why Do You Bother With It?"

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

many theists ask why atheists care about god or the bible.

the question deserves an answer.

below, former pastor, bruce gerencser, provides one.

AllTimeJeff

It's a fine line.

Is there a state religion? No. (technically)

Do "Christian" politicians use the fact that they can whip their constituents into a frenzy simply because the oppnent is either not as vocal about their religion, or even worse, feel as if religion is being imposed in the government? Yes. In that case, a de facto religious influence is being introduced.

When religious/Christian precepts are introduced as law, to be legally binding on all, even those who don't believe in it, then we have a problem. It should be obviously a case by case discussion. But Christian political interests are primarily social politics. Instead of being "live and let live" social political discussions do demonize minorities and their rights, under the auspices of "morality".

A democracy is only as strong as their commitment to the protection of minority rights. When the majority insists that their rights are being infrigned upon, I find that a bit disingenuous, and I do see that from the Christian right that tries to thrust themselves into the public social debates.

Christians are allowed to feel strongly about whatever they want, and limit it to churches and their families. They simply cannot be permitted to introduce as potential law anything that seeks to limit the rights of others due to the simple fact that their religious sensabilities are offended.

If for example, someone only subscribes personally to 8 of the 10 commandments, an allowing of all 10 commandments in a government building would make me feel quite uncomfortable, as I reject 2 of them. Why should all 10 be thrust upon me as a secular political ideal? Ditto if it were only 4 or 5, 2 or 1.

I see this issue as a continual weakness in our democracy. Until religion is kept out of the public discourse, we will continue to see "moral authority" given to the squelching of issues regarding minority rights and behavior.

25

Best Action Films

by beksbks in

i'm sure we've done this, but it's been a while.. one of my top favorites, it's on now, die hard.

AllTimeJeff

Its hard to beat Die Hard and Speed.

Space Jam was awesome too!

23

Olympic Torch Failure A Blessing!

by leec in

the olympics is nothing more than a satanic contest between one wild beast and another.

the failure of the forth arm of the olympic torch is a twofold prophesy, to wit:.

1) the beast cannot stand on its own, it will ultimately fail due to man's folly!.

AllTimeJeff

Everything went so right, it was a great opening ceremony, and the hyrdraulics screwed it up.

Gretzky represents Jesus, its clear. He has fire, the power to resurrect, and the power to forgive. Also, he is a great hockey player. And he no longer smokes pork rhinds....

23

Olympic Torch Failure A Blessing!

by leec in

the olympics is nothing more than a satanic contest between one wild beast and another.

the failure of the forth arm of the olympic torch is a twofold prophesy, to wit:.

1) the beast cannot stand on its own, it will ultimately fail due to man's folly!.

AllTimeJeff

Your suppose to eat the pork rhinds, not smoke them people.

;)

23

Olympic Torch Failure A Blessing!

by leec in

the olympics is nothing more than a satanic contest between one wild beast and another.

the failure of the forth arm of the olympic torch is a twofold prophesy, to wit:.

1) the beast cannot stand on its own, it will ultimately fail due to man's folly!.

AllTimeJeff

Who does Wayne Gretzky portray in this prophecy? The prodigal son or Jesus?