It's not much of a review, just notes I'm taking while reading it. I'm enjoying the book and getting some ideas for talking to people about some of their beliefs. It's not my style to challenge people a lot, but I'm so surrounded by people with crazy beliefs, and I figure if I listen politely to what they say, they can listen to my doubts too.
Hortensia
JoinedPosts by Hortensia
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52
A Manual for Creating Atheists
by Hortensia injust received the book, sat down to start reading it.
first chapter has definitions:.
faith:.
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52
A Manual for Creating Atheists
by Hortensia injust received the book, sat down to start reading it.
first chapter has definitions:.
faith:.
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Hortensia
Chapter Four
Refers to evidence that people don't change their minds because of evidence. Presenting facts won't convince a person because their belief isn't based on facts. They start with a belief - Jesus was divine, for instance -- and then use that belief to understand ideas like Jesus walking on water. Of course he did that, he is divine.
So don't attempt to change someone's mind by deluging the person with facts. Circular nature of justification, one's beliefs are justified because of feelings, experiences, ancient documents or new revelations, without any outside support.
Coherentists believe a statement is supported if it agrees with other statements within the belief system. Uses the Matrix as an example.
Foundationalists believe a statement is supported if it can be inferred from other statements within the belief system. Refers to Descartes's famous statement "I think therefore I am," which Descartes used as a foundation to infer other statements or beliefs about his perceptions of the world.
It doesn't work to focus on coherentist beliefs, you just wind up in circular discussions. The author prefers foundationalist discussions instead. Focus on how they think, how they come to conclusions. There are foundational beliefs that hold up the whole structure of faith. Focus on the foundations of faith, not on religions.
Also many people experience religion as a social network, friends, families, community and relationships, so attacking religion can be perceived as attacking a person's social network, family and community.
Focus on how a person claims to know his faith is true, not on what that particular faith is. Don't argue about whether god exists, but ask how a person knows that god exists.
Separate faith from morality, by asking if you can think of anyone who does not have faith but who is a moral person. The author uses Bill Gates and Specialist Pat Tillman as examples of people who do not believe, but who are/were moral in their behavior. Then ask, "can you think of any person with faith who is immoral?"
other questions: what would it take for you to believe your faith is wrong?reverse question: what would it take to convince me there is a god?
Refers to Motivational Interviewing (Miller and Rollnick, 2002) for suggestions to help create nonadversarial relationships.
Don't become frustrated, even if the person you are talking with exhibits anger and hostility.
Don't make a judgement that a person is in denial. The author prefers the term "precontemplative" for someone who doesn't yet see that he or she could change opinions and beliefs. The anger and hostility are symptoms of this stage of change.
What am I thinking as I read the book? Well, I like the idea of not being invested in the results, not attacking religion, doctrine, politics, whatever, but instead just focusing on evidence for faith, whatever the faith is. Asking questions and listening carefully to the answers, being willing to admit myself that someone might know stuff I don't know, that I don't know everything. In fact, the whole idea of the book is that a person who thinks critically starts from a position of knowing that he/she doesn't know much at all. Then the critical thinker looks for information, examines competing ideas, looks for reasonable evidence. Faith is different, they seem to be immune to evidence, and not willing to consider that they could change their minds.I have been thinking, while reading, of a book that convinced me all religions are wrong. It is called Women Saints East and West. Ironically, it isn't about atheism at all, but a series of short biographies of women saints, mainly Catholic, Islamic, and I think Hindu or Buddhist. It has been a while since I read it, but the conclusion I drew from it I'll never forget. What I noticed was that all these women believed different things, that their religious doctrines contradicted the other religions. BUT, the women did similar things. They all meditated or prayed about six hours a day, gave away material possessions and lived a life of service to others. I realized that doctrine doesn't matter. It isn't a matter of one religion being true and others being wrong. They're all wrong. Doctrines don't matter. That isn't why people join religions.
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5
Welcome to the Masquerade Hall
by msconcerned init has been an interesting ride these last few months, and sometimes i have failed to put into words my feelings as of late.
but tonight i have something that will help explain the feeling i get whenever i walk in to the masquerade(kingdom) hall.
masquerade balls were sometimes set as a game among the guests.
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Hortensia
When I was in, I believed all the others in the KH. I was sure they were sincere and devout and I was the only spiritually weak one. Something wrong with me.
After I was out, I found out how many of them live double lives, and have two faces, one for the world and one for the KH. Then I realized the only thing wrong with me in regard to the JWs was naivete.
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52
A Manual for Creating Atheists
by Hortensia injust received the book, sat down to start reading it.
first chapter has definitions:.
faith:.
-
-
Hortensia
Tammy, other people feel as strongly as you do about their faith, only their faith is in Allah or Krishna or spirit guides, whatever. How can you prove that your faith is right and theirs is wrong? They can't all be right, with all the conflicting doctrines.
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19
My wife is truly a non-jw...
by Jim_TX ina little bit of background (for those of you who came in late).... i used to be a jw (no joke!).
i married a jw wife.
we were married for about 20 years, and i couldn't take it anymore - since i was no longer a jw, and didn't believe in their doctrines anymore.. i got divorced in 2002. since that time, i was solo, and then met a nice non-jw woman.
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Hortensia
I had a job pricing books at a used book store for a while. The owner held up some JW book and asked if it was worth anything. I said, "it's Jehovah's Witnesses, they're a cult." She tossed it without a second thought.
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52
A Manual for Creating Atheists
by Hortensia injust received the book, sat down to start reading it.
first chapter has definitions:.
faith:.
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Hortensia
I agree.
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9
Pinker & Wieseltier on scientism
by bohm insteven pinker, one of my favorite current thinkers, has given his perspective on "scientism" (or the lack thereof) in what turned out to be a short debate with leon wieseltier.
the articles contain too many points to summarize here, but pinker point out some obvious issues with the word "scientism" as it is currently used, discuss what science is (and offer a positive definition of scientism) as well as what he percieve to be an unnecesary resistance towards science from *some* parts of humanities.
the articles are quite long but easily the most interesting thing i have read on these subjects this year; they also show what happends when one as wieseltier bring rethoric to a knife-fight with a first rate intellect.
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Hortensia
thanks for sharing, I read all the articles.
I'll probably have to read them again.
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52
A Manual for Creating Atheists
by Hortensia injust received the book, sat down to start reading it.
first chapter has definitions:.
faith:.
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-
Hortensia
I think faith is wishful thinking. I think all of us at one time or another just want to be rescued, and the belief that some invisible deity will do just that someday must be nice. I just don't see how it can be true, in fact I'm certain it isn't true. So, what then? Face the facts, do what you can to live a fulfilling life while not hurting others.
Meanwhile, I'm reading this book about creating atheists and having some interesting thoughts. I find the book interesting and educational. I'm enjoying the information. I just can't see myself doing it very often. I'm like NY44M - for the most part I don't care what people believe, unless they challenge me in which case I tell the truth. However, I think that the more extreme religious folks really cause damage when they are in power. So maybe the book about the religious right taking over the US and what we can do about it would be better for me. First, though, I'll finish this book and share some more tidbits with you.
BTW, after I read the first chapter I read all the appendices in the back, and flipped through reading endnotes. The endnotes for each chapter are great, full of all sorts of information and resources. I think the author could have included much of the endnote material in the chapters without muddling the chapters at all.
Have any of you checked out the link to the Skeptics 101 course? Lots of interesting information in the course outline, and the course evidently deals with developing critical thinking skills in students, whether the subject is religion, snake oil, conspiracies, politics or whatever.
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26
Should I ''respect'' Bible and Koran believers?
by ThomasCovenant inbelievers in the koran/islam, that's all of them, not just so called extremists, believe that i, as an unbeliever, will be the fuel for the fires of hell.
that's nice.. they, along with all bible believers, worship a god who is, according to his written publications, a right bastard.
i despise their god/s.. i find that i do not respect their beliefs.. i cannot help but think that when all the philosophical talking of this, that and the other is done, they're just idiots.. i, on my down days, find that i do not respect them as human beings.
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Hortensia
I certainly don't respect their beliefs. At the best, they are just superstition, at the worst they cause damage and death. Why respect that? I've met lots of nice people, decent people, with weird religious beliefs. I can like the person and dislike the beliefs. But I don't think religion should get special treatment -- to respect it, it has to be respectable. I think that true believers who demand that I respect their beliefs are arrogant and smug. If they are willing to admit that everyone has the right to believe or not to believe, then we get along better.
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52
A Manual for Creating Atheists
by Hortensia injust received the book, sat down to start reading it.
first chapter has definitions:.
faith:.
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Hortensia
Snare & Racket: "Webster's Dictionary faith is "an unquestioning belief that does not require proof or evidence.""
Unquestioning, there's the problem!