Posts by StephaneLaliberte

62

Ten reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses have the true religion (plus a bonus one)

by slimboyfat in

thinking back when i was a true believer these are probably the top ten reasons why i believed jws are the true religion.

1. they show love among themselves by not going to war.

not killing your fellow believers in any circumstances, including war, would seem to be a very basic requirement for true christianity.

StephaneLaliberte

You are trying to put an exact number something that is impossible to put an exact number on.

You're right—JWs probably don't have an exact number either, but I’m willing to bet that their margin of error is smaller than what historians have to work with.

One of the reasons I spent so much time looking into these numbers is that I was raised as a JW and repeatedly told that had I lived in Germany at that time, I would have been sent to jail and likely faced execution. And, as you seem to believe, I was told this story to reinforce the idea that JWs were the true religion because of their persecution.

However, the numbers show that the majority of JWs weren't incarcerated, and only a fraction were executed. While this doesn't diminish the heroism of those who were (in my book, they're heroes), it is a disappointment compared to what I was led to believe when I attended meetings.

JWs were an “island of spiritual resistance” and that other churches have had to come to terms with the “widespread complicity” of their leadership and ordinary members

While this statement is true, "spiritual resistance" was not what the Nazis needed at the time. As I said before, martyrdom didn’t win the war—physical resistance did.

any act of resistance was remarkable in the circumstances

That's where you and I agree. However, Jehovah's Witnesses don’t share this view. They don't believe in physical violence. In their view, those who picked up a gun to fight the Nazis were enemies of God. While the Nazis were killing millions, JWs were preaching that God would soon bring about Armageddon and kill exponentially more people who didn’t share their beliefs. Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc., would all be destroyed.

Essentially, they didn’t see resisting the Nazis as a way to serve the greater good of humanity. Now, nearly 100 years later, history shows that humanity needed Catholics, Protestants, and Muslims to pick up arms and fight back because God remained idle and did nothing.

Someone who spoke against the regime, went to jail, renounced their faith in custody, was released, later regretted that decision and rejoined. Did they resist, or not?

You enumerated several scenarios in which people could have renounced their faith, even temporarily, in the face of persecution. I completely agree with you there. I'm not in a position to judge them from the comfort and safety of my home. I probably would have been the first to sign the paper and say, “Heil Hitler.” But I’d like to think I wouldn’t have given up names, that I would have helped people evade the Nazis, and that I might have blown up some train tracks.

The point is that the same can be said of millions of Catholics and Protestants who faced similar choices. Was their faith worth any less than that of Jehovah's Witnesses?

Someone who was a JW for social or family reasons but decided it wasn’t worth it when the Nazis came to power.

The same can be said for other religions. You also have to consider that, in Germany at the time, you were either Catholic or Protestant. But how many of them truly believed and practiced their faith? Those who did often lied to the Nazis and fought clandestinely.

All this to say that the JWs response to the Nazis didn't make them the true religion. It was one way to face it, but it didn't make them the one and true religion.

62

Ten reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses have the true religion (plus a bonus one)

by slimboyfat in

thinking back when i was a true believer these are probably the top ten reasons why i believed jws are the true religion.

1. they show love among themselves by not going to war.

not killing your fellow believers in any circumstances, including war, would seem to be a very basic requirement for true christianity.

StephaneLaliberte

Former JWs who attempt to deny reality on this do themselves no favours. It’s a sign of being in a bubble. Not everything about JWs is bad. - Slimboyfat

Yes, the Jehovah's Witnesses were notably the only religious group that publicly opposed the Nazis. As a result, about one-third were imprisoned, and by the end of the war, around 1,500 were killed. Remarkably, they did this peacefully!

Martyrdom is a powerful story—one that inspires and captivates. The willingness to die for one’s beliefs is a narrative celebrated on monuments, war memorials, and museums throughout the Western world. People need inspiration, and what could be more courageous than a virtuous death?

However, the situation is more complex. Before the Nazi era, there were between 25,000 and 30,000 Jehovah's Witnesses in Germany. By the end of the war, about 20,000 remained. To account for this:

About 1,500 were killed.
Between 1,000 and 2,000 signed a loyalty declaration to the Nazis, renouncing their faith. (historians' estimate)
Let's estimate around 1,000 fled Germany.

This means that by the war's end, between 500 and 6,500 individuals stopped practicing and did not return to the JWs.

Consider that between 1939 and 1945, 13,000 to 20,000 Jehovah's Witnesses managed to stay free despite the Nazis systematically targeting them. This was no small feat, given their beliefs, which included not saluting Hitler, reciting loyalty oaths, or participating in holidays and political events. It’s likely that some may have compromised their beliefs to remain undetected.

So, when you say, “The overwhelming majority of JWs resisted the Nazis,” that’s not entirely accurate. The actual numbers suggest that between 75% and 94% resisted.

Interestingly, while historians have made estimates, the Jehovah's Witnesses likely know the exact figures but choose not to share them. Anything less than 99% would cast a slight shadow on their heroic narrative against the Nazis.

Again, this is not to diminish their sacrifice, which is indeed commendable. However, absolutes rarely exist. The JWs were not entirely good, just as Catholics and other religions were not entirely bad. Millions of other Christians also died in war and resistance efforts, and many suffered in various ways. Ultimately, evil was defeated through the efforts of countless soldiers and fighters. The sacrifices made by Jehovah's Witnesses are no less significant than those of others who fought for justice.

62

Ten reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses have the true religion (plus a bonus one)

by slimboyfat in

thinking back when i was a true believer these are probably the top ten reasons why i believed jws are the true religion.

1. they show love among themselves by not going to war.

not killing your fellow believers in any circumstances, including war, would seem to be a very basic requirement for true christianity.

StephaneLaliberte

I could have added that the behaviour of JWs during the Third Reich was also something that convinced me Jehovah’s Witnesses have the truth. The Nazi regime is as close to a laboratory test of who are true Christians as you could conceivably devise and JWs conducted themselves well when so many others did not. That’s not to deny that individuals of other religions showed courage or that some other small groups also took a stand against the regime, but it seems obvious that JWs stood out as a religious group that stood firm under extreme trial. - Silmboyfat

When I was a JW, I believed the same thing. However, after leaving the faith and visiting Auschwitz, I came to realize that Catholics and other Christians simply followed a different strategy. They lied to the Nazis and publicly supported them, all the while contributing to the resistance behind the scenes. As a result, around a million Catholics died fighting in the resistance. Like the JWs, many of them were sent to concentration camps.

Certainly, there were ugly cases where some Christians were full-blown Nazis, but JWs had their own traitors too. The only real difference was the numbers—there were many more Catholics, and therefore many more traitors and Nazi sympathizers, but the ratios were likely similar.

Looking back, I now find it immoral for JWs to claim they were the only true Christians through all of this, while ignoring the significant sacrifices made by other believers for the good of humanity. Their faith was put into action, and if there is a God, it would be unjust to overlook those sacrifices.

In short: While JWs certainly deserve recognition for their unwavering stance, it is equally important to acknowledge the sacrifices and alternative strategies of other religious groups, including Catholics and Protestants.

37

NO SUPPORT FOR EXJWS DRAFTED IN UKRAINE

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/ulan2hhagz8?si=jpedzunzb5o_6axd.

here’s a cautionary tale for anyone counting on past ties with jehovah’s witnesses to dodge conscription: they’ll throw you under the bus faster than you can say “conscientious objector.” a man in ukraine learned this the hard way after refusing military service and hoping his old religious connections would save him.

spoiler alert—they didn’t.

StephaneLaliberte

Wow, just wow. Those elders sure love wielding the power of life and death.

We don't know what this guy did to be thrown out and kept out. Based on the latest watchtowers, it should be easier then ever before to get back in. Is this guy a child molester? Did he commit fraud against brothers and sisters? Did he go after an elder's wife?

I think it has everything with WHY he was thrown out and kept out of his religion. Because in this case, the court was evaluating the guy's conscience which he could not prove. I bet if he was kept out of that group because of apostasy, he'd stand a chance.

As for me personally? I'd pick up a gun and fight. You invade my country, my home, threaten my family. What else am I supposed to do?

26

What if JWs voted in elections?

by Las Malvinas son Argentinas in

all this political banter is exhausting, so i want to ask a question that has probably been asked before, so here it goes….

let’s try to keep this non-partisan - just give your opinion and why you think that way.. i’ll go first.

i think jws would generally lean to the right, but not by a whole lot.

StephaneLaliberte

[...] most of the Brothers are in the low income bracket, any direct and immediate financial support (as typically offered by these parties) would be highly desirable. [...] Witnesses are typically the kind of people who want instant help, rather than a people who would be happy to the government's long term strategic planning projects to help the economy, like the investing in ports, bridges or cleaning up the environment. - no-zombie

When I first read your comment, I disagreed, thinking that JWs don't typically respect laziness and often help one another whenever possible. But after giving it more thought, you're right. Despite not being lazy, I've seen many of them, including myself and my family, benefit from low-income housing projects and other assistance programs. They encourage hard work to support one's family, but since they frown upon business success and higher education, many JW parents end up in low-paying, hard-working jobs. They work hard for little reward, often for most of their lives. As they dedicate so much time to their religion (10 to 20 hours per week), they don't have the time to invest in themselves through training or exploring job opportunities outside their core trade. Some managed to do so anyway, but they did it against the current.

As for long term strategic plan, they don't really have any as Armageddon is just around the corner.

26

What if JWs voted in elections?

by Las Malvinas son Argentinas in

all this political banter is exhausting, so i want to ask a question that has probably been asked before, so here it goes….

let’s try to keep this non-partisan - just give your opinion and why you think that way.. i’ll go first.

i think jws would generally lean to the right, but not by a whole lot.

StephaneLaliberte

Had I not been raised as a JW, I would probably be conservative (Right / Republican). However, because of my upbringing, I find myself dead center between the left and the right.

JWs' theocratic vision for the world is one without countries and borders, where everyone is equal and the diversity of cultures is experienced through music, food, and clothing. It's a beautiful dream.

Unfortunately, this vision of the world is utopian. In today’s world, culture is tightly linked to their countries of origin and their religions.

People who have left the JWs know all too well that religious people lie. They say one thing in public and practice another in private. For instance, JWs tell the world that they don’t practice shunning when, in fact, they do. Or that taking a blood transfusion is a personal choice, when, in fact, it isn’t.

The same can be said of other religions whose values conflict with the host country, such as Christians, Muslims, Jews, and others.

In Canada, religion has mostly been removed from politics. As a result, views previously seen as incompatible with religion, such as women's equality, LGBTQ rights, sex before marriage, abortion, drug use, and more, have become accepted. Over the years, most Christians have peacefully come to terms with these changes. As a result, we now have a country where human rights take priority over religious views. This is also one of the reasons why living conditions tend to be better than in many other places and why many migrants come to Canada to live and share this dream.

Sadly, this is not the case for a significant number of migrants. Based on demonstrations and political activism that we see on the news and social media; it is easy to see that many strongly identify with their countries of origin and their religions.

This directly conflicts with the vision of a peaceful multicultural country that, I believe, Trudeau naively supports. Unfortunately, he and his political party even go a step further: they assume that people who fear such individuals are inherently racist nationalists. Do they even understand that people will boldly lie to protect their beliefs?

The country believes in religious freedom, but the religions do not. Many Christians, such as JWs, will retaliate against their children when they leave the faith. The same can be said of other religions, some even more violently than others!

All I can say is that I dream of a world where these words from Pierre Falardeau, a well-known separatist nationalist in Quebec, would make sense: "If you share my values, I don't care about your race and where you're from; I'll call you my brother."

5

2024 GB Update #5

by ukpimo in

let's mine for the next gb update!

it isn't yet on the servers, however the code 1112024014 is to be used for august.

it should be out publicly on the borg website tomorrow.

StephaneLaliberte

and "very important" reminders about remaining neutral before the upcoming elections

To be fair, that's not such a bad advice for most of them: A lot of people have a political opinion and shouldn't. That's the reason why we have so many stupid exchanges on the news and social forums.

Black women should vote for Kamala.
But she's Indian.
No, she's also Black on her dad's side.
Yeah, but Jamaicans aren't the same thing as Black Americans.
When they live in the US, they are!

Another one:

Trump said they'll never have to vote again! He'll turn the place into a dictatorship!
He was talking about the Christians that never vote; he needs their vote this time.

And another:

This poll says this party is winning!
No, look at this poll: we are winning!

These exchanges have no bearing on the content of the political ideas and intended directions of the parties, and yet, take up the majority of the space on public forums. Why? Because a lot of dumb people with the right to vote, a vote equal to yours, will make their decision based on feelings and not facts.

64

Ages of each user here?

by ukpimo in

jw
friends

i'm interested to know the age demographics here.

it must be significantly different to other exjw forums.

it would be a damning report for watchtower if most of us appear to have left for decades.. you don't have to mention your exact age, you could always say "in my 50s".. i am in my 70s.

StephaneLaliberte

Mid-40s. I became inactive about 10 years ago.

28

Remember the sex talks?

by KerryKing in

i remember sitting through public talks where the speaker spent the hour discussing in great detail anal sex, masturbation (of yourself and others), sex during menstruation and so on.

.

i was a child, looking back now, i realise that they systematically stripped away our childhood innocence, we knew and heard things no 'worldly' child would have heard.. the child abuse and grooming happened to every single one of us, the feelings of guilt and shame was in all of us even if we didn't actually do anything bad, the mental images caused by these filthy men hung around in our innocent minds till there was no room for that innocence.. it has taken me 44 years to realise that what was done to us, even those of us not physically abused, is a crime.. do they still have talks like that nowadays i wonder?

StephaneLaliberte

I was a child, looking back now, I realise that they systematically stripped away our childhood innocence, we knew and heard things no 'worldly' child would have heard.

I also remember these talks and remember I was a bit troubled by them. I was thinking the same thing: worldly children didn't hear about such things. But then, I remember the pride that I had in the sexuality course in school where they talked about a few things I already knew about.

My mom was also very open on the subject.

Now that I'm an adult and dad myself, I look back at all this and think my mom did a great job. I also believe the watchtower did a fairly good job had I been older than 10 year old at the time. I mean, the way the approached the subject is fine by me, but gosh, why in the world would you need hearing about the details when your 5 years old?

37

Avoiding Temptation As a Young Elder

by TMS in

it was the summer of '72.

i was 24 but had been the presiding overseer or congregation servant of a small congregation in the county seat of an arkansas county for about 3 years.. my regular pioneer wife of nearly four years was big and pregnant, with our attempts at birth control unsuccessful.. one of my wife's several bible studies was with a young woman named brenda whom my wife had encountered in door to door work.. brenda had two young children she could barely handle and was married to a very countryfied arkie named henry who worked as a chicken catcher, one of the most difficult jobs at the local chicken plant.. brenda eventually revealed that she'd been raised as a jw, but was never baptized, having left home to marry henry at age 14. she spoke of her family in texas, mentioning her mother and two older sisters, all jws she said.. one morning, just before the meeting for field service, we noticed a small car in kingdom hall parking lot.

my wife and i were parked to one side of the hall in our aluminum nashua house trailer.. two young women got out of the car and soon joined us for the meeting for service, identifying themselves as brenda's sisters from texas.. the two girls, ages 17 and 20, were distractingly beautiful, with the eldest decked out like a magnificent southern belle including hat and heels, her high-end clothing accentuating her very obvious curves.. with no one else showing up for field service, it ended up just the four of us in the car group with the two texas girls in the back seat.. starting our time at a not-at-home, the 20 year old asked if she could accompany me to "hear my presentation.

StephaneLaliberte

Captain Schmideo2: there is a scene almost exactly like this

Found it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlO5LT96dQ8

Very funny! And no joke, that's basically how it goes for me!