Posts by LayingLow

365

Richard Dawkins Gets "Expelled" by Ben Stein!

by Perry in

i just got back from seeing the new movie release "expelled" which is a documentary exposing the militant culture of supression regarding intelligent design in the scientific community.

in a "million years", i never would have imagined that ben stein could get the author of "the god delusion", richard dawkins to speak favorably about i.d.

(intellignet design).

LayingLow

I just got back from watching the film. I wanted to know exactly what Richard Dawkins had said and with what tone. This is what I observed:

He was asked how that first cell got here and he visually drew a blank. He said quite honestly that he hadn't a clue. Then he said that it was possible that an alien society developed and planted a "seed" here.

He paused for a moment and said why he couldn't accept I.D. It was the implication that God had no beginning. He could accept a creator or originator that had a beginning but not one that didn't.

The tone was definitely serious and not in jest.

In the end he didn't say "I believe in God". He did however say that he didn't know how that first cell started.

I can say without reserve that Richard Dawkins believes that everything must have a beginning, therefore excluding God.

Both parties agreed to change in species over time. Technically that is the "evolution" part. However, the term evolution seems to be quite loaded language that also includes spontaneous generation. That part is not science (it is faith [not observed, not repeatable, not calibrated, etc.]). It is clear that there is no consensus among scientists as to what started the first cell. That being the case, it is a guess (in the form of a strong assertion on both sides). Both sides may assert their faith, but it shouldn't be covered as a "scientific theory". Neither of the theories are scientific.

Adaptation, mutation, and natural selection are facts. Spontaneous generation is a religion.

40

Your JW Relatives Have 2 Personalities - Cult & Authentic- See the Change

by flipper in

jw
friends

in steve hassan's book, " combatting cult mind control" - one of the points that assisted me the most is understanding that all cult members have a " cult " personality which turns on when defending their faith, and they have an authentic, non - cult personality they were born with- the personality they had before being programmed by the jehovah's witnesses or any other " cult".

how is this dual cult/ authentic personality manifest ?

hassan mentions in his book that, " one moment the person is speaking cultic jargon with a hostile or elitist know-it-all attitude .

LayingLow

I can sense a switch in my personality from easy going to rigid and serious. I still do it though. I can start out one way in the morning and can be the other by that night. For me it is passion. Passion for an ideology makes my volume increase and every other thing mentioned. When I'm not presently considering a topic that I'm passionate about I drift back into a really lax mode. I can't say for sure that this started in the JW's however. I think I've always done it. Maybe I'm screwed up like that, it's hard to say really.

The glassiness comes from a mental disengagement with the person and a concentration on the thought of passion (human rights, or whatever). Unfortunately I can also do that if I'm bored. I try to pretend I'm interested but my mind has disengaged.

This all comes from an inward sensation of believing that others must feel the same as me about something. It's weird, it's like if I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, then there's no pressure, but as soon as something comes up, click. It's there.

Anyone else experience this?

71

Criticism worthy of your time

by johnnyc in

as i read posts throughout this site, i became amazed at some of the criticism people have actually spent time creating, reading (as i did), and responding to.

dont get me wrong, some of what i read are good issues that seem worthy (to me) of discussion, but to be honest, i find that 90% of the posts are based on ridiculous petty topics that are obviously tied to a sense of deep hatred of the wtbts.

i can appreciate that some of the people who leave such post, and have this hatred, are taking their time to discuss such things as part of a therapeutic process to combat the fact they spent a large portion of their life dedicated to an organization they feel abandoned them at some point.

LayingLow

On that note, why wouldn't Barbour be the FDS then (assuming that the one given the insight into the 1874 presence/ 1914 expiration of gentile times, would be the one led by God)?

That prophecy interpretation was definitely Barbour's.

3

Dr. Bernstein Diet

by Thinking of Leaving in

has anyone tried it?

the lady i take the bus with has been on it for the past 3 weeks and has already lost 15 pounds.. any experiences to share?.

LayingLow

I edited this because it doesn't directly relate to the topic.

It does seem amazing what people are willing to do to lose weight (besides exercise).

A low calorie diet that makes you lose more than 2 lbs per week is definitely going to atrophy your muscle mass. If you do that, then even if you lose the weight, you will still have a lower capacity for naturally burning calories on a normal diet (50 calories a day X 1 lb. of muscle). In the long run this means that you will gain the weight back quicker and have an even harder time losing it the next time.

106

So what caused you to have doubts in the first place?

by nicolaou in

jw
friends

i had no doubts at all about the 'truth' untill a friend of mine in the cong' began falling away.

in trying to help him i had to ask questions and do research and that of course cracked the doors of my mind open for the first time in over thirty years.. years ago, when jwd allowed members to have signatures, i used the following quote from voltaire as mine.

i still love it.. doubt is uncomfortable, certainty is ridiculous..

LayingLow

Things that helped me along the way:

-Having problems with scriptures about how you should be in Christ and baptized with the Holy Spirit.(The whole two-class Christian system)
-Having problems with them forbidding speaking in tongues (Not that I do, but it obviously says in the scriptures not to forbid it.)
-Having a householder ask me what I would do if I read the scriptures and could see one thing clearly while another belief was espoused in the WTBTS literature. He asked me who I would listen to. I said the scriptures and stuck to it (That's why I'm not a JW any longer)
-I read some of the Studies in the Scriptures by Russel. This was huge in that it allowed me to see alternative views to interpreting scriptures that were actually more logical than the WTS (and yet still wrong!). That was what really got me. How he could be more believable and use more scriptural proof than them and still be wrong. I thought "Wow, if he could be wrong with that compilation of doctrine the WTS definitely could be."
-Audio booking the N.T. and listening to it constantly emphasized all of the above points.

The only thing that kept me in so long was that I would suppress the doubts and distract myself with some material pursuit. I was a better Witness when I was more focused on material things. Whenever I would regain the focus on spiritual things I would again get full of doubts and want to leave. Then the cycle would happen again. I'm not talking so much about getting a nice house, etc.. etc.. I mean thinking about "When is that next build", "Where are we going to hang out after service", "That next part I'm going to give", and things like that. The organization may call them spiritual activities (Except the one), but they really are a distraction from doctrine and a focus on activity.

I remember being at a quick build and thinking, "This is really a great time, with nice people, I wish they had the truth.", but I knew they didn't.

106

So what caused you to have doubts in the first place?

by nicolaou in

jw
friends

i had no doubts at all about the 'truth' untill a friend of mine in the cong' began falling away.

in trying to help him i had to ask questions and do research and that of course cracked the doors of my mind open for the first time in over thirty years.. years ago, when jwd allowed members to have signatures, i used the following quote from voltaire as mine.

i still love it.. doubt is uncomfortable, certainty is ridiculous..

LayingLow

Yeah, all those anti-biblical comments about "Following the slave" set triggers off in my head as well. It wasn't the first thing to get me thinking, but when I had hidden my doubts it would certainly bring them back to mind. I remember at times during the convention thinking to myself, wouldn't it be crazy if they just came out and said "This is all an experiment, we just made half this stuff up to see if you all would accept it without reservation. You should be ashamed of yourselves."

14

Patchy memories

by Princess Daisy Boo in

jw
friends

i often think back to my childhood and discover that my memories are very patchy.

names, faces, school teachers, things related to being a brought up as a dub.

memories of some years are patchier than others - for example when i was about 10, we moved from the city that we had always lived to a small town, 2 hours drive away - we moved back to the city 3 years later - i remember very little of the first two years in that small town.. i seem to think that the years where the memories are patchy were times when i was quite unhappy.

LayingLow

I don't think that is peculiar to adults who were raised JW's. I wasn't and I have very foggy memory / don't remember much of my youth. I remember some parts were depressing and so I have always spent my time thinking of the present/future. Some people think of the past often. I'm not one of those people. It seems like people like that (friends that I've known) remember my youth better than I do. I think if you review it often it sticks more. I may be way off but that is something I've been pondering over lately as well.

71

Criticism worthy of your time

by johnnyc in

as i read posts throughout this site, i became amazed at some of the criticism people have actually spent time creating, reading (as i did), and responding to.

dont get me wrong, some of what i read are good issues that seem worthy (to me) of discussion, but to be honest, i find that 90% of the posts are based on ridiculous petty topics that are obviously tied to a sense of deep hatred of the wtbts.

i can appreciate that some of the people who leave such post, and have this hatred, are taking their time to discuss such things as part of a therapeutic process to combat the fact they spent a large portion of their life dedicated to an organization they feel abandoned them at some point.

LayingLow

johnny, Here are some of my thoughts on this. If JW's are not the true religion then it wouldn't necessarily follow that an ex-JW board would have the smoking gun of the truth. If you believe in annihalationism (hell = destruction) then check out Adventist beliefs. That is what Russell started his religion from anyways. If you think Witnesses have a lot of true basics then Adventism is probably the route to check. Maybe you could also explore Christadelphians.

If you think an error occurred in Christianity before this, then I would check into Protestant denominations like the Quakers, Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, Lutherans etc... Check out Luther's five points and find out if you agree with them. If not, maybe you should go back further. Roman Catholicism and the Eastern Orthodox Church preceded this. Investigate them. Who was right at Nicea? Read publications by Athanasius and the other Church Fathers. Check out the Anthology of the Church Fathers at ccel.org.

I would verify my beliefs before I took a JW checklist and tried to see which religion fit. Research the Deity of Christ. That may open many doors for your. Was following some religion what Jesus wanted? Did he just want you to follow him?

I offer more questions than answers but I think that all of these questions are valid. Truthfully, I don't expect to find those answers here though I do frequent this place. Sometimes I find helpful information but this is more of a place to vent than anything. I find that when doctrinal issues are discussed you can get both sides of the arguments and understand how as Witnesses we were trained to misapply and twist scripture.

There are hurting people here. It's not a formal scholastic approach to Biblical interpretation that you will find. It is bleeding hearts. Husbands and wives torn over religious beliefs. People emerging from indoctrination that they have trusted their entire lives. Families, sons, daughters, sisters, and brothers ripped apart. I think you have a walked into a hospital and complained that everyone is whining over injuries.

I actually agree with you that 90% of the things discussed here are not reasons to leave a religion. However, the other 10% are excellent reasons to leave a religion and better reasons to tell others not too join in the first place. If I'm molested by someone I may complain about how s/he's dumb, a misfit, dresses sloppily, etc... I don't do it because these are good reasons not to like someone. I do it because I'm dealing with extreme issues of anger/mistrust/loneliness that the person has caused. Please see through all of this... It's pain.

At least that's my personal opinion. You're dealing with people who are hurting. When someone is in pain and you say that 90% of the things they complain about are not legit you may be correct but don't expect them to thank you for it.

I hope you don't feel that I'm trying to come down on you. Just please be understanding.

67

God dammit!!! I hate this cult!

by bluesbreaker59 in

jw
friends

so my girlfriend and i are getting very serious, and i've bought her engagement ring, should be done being built sometime in may.

then at some point later, i'm going to ask her to marry me.

she was with me and picked out her ring, so she knows its coming.

LayingLow

How about this:

"Dad, if you don't go to my wedding all of your friends are going to ask why you aren't there. I would hate to have to tell them that it is because we have religious disagreements. I don't want to make it a bad witness for them, and I doubt you do either. You probably would hurt the organization more by not going."

Just a thought.

24

ENOCH & the Watchtower Society

by Honesty in

genesis 5.

5 so all the days of adam that he lived amounted to nine hundred and thirty years and he died.

8 so all the days of seth amounted to nine hundred and twelve years and he died.

LayingLow

Hebrews 11:5-
"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God translated him: for he hath had witness borne to him that before his translation he had been well-pleasing unto God:"

Hebrews 11:13-
"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth"
If I had to guess I would have guessed that the first meant he wasn't dead, but the verse in 13 seems to indicate that he is.

Genesis 5:21-24-
"And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: and Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: and all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

So God translated Enoch. Aside from letting him skip the dying part of entering death I can't really figure out what else it could mean. If he was translated in space to another location he would have continued to walk with God and therefore his years walking with God couldn't have been summed up. I thought maybe he could be translated through time and then suddenly appear (maybe as one of the two witnesses in Revelation). If that were the case, he would be translated, would not have seen death, and wouldn't exist presently. With the exception of Hebrews 11:13 I would go with that.

I don't think the being translated through time would nullify Jesus statement that no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven. But there still is that Heb 11:13.

I actually intended to write this post proving that he wasn't currently dead but I'm leaning the opposite direction now.