I guess we all have a common problem in not saying too much. I remember when I first became a Witness; I couldn't believe ALL the lies the churches were telling. It wasn't justs the trinity, or hell-fire, it was also tithing, the cross, having a paid clergy and on and on. When I was talking to old friends I tended to try and tell them too much and point out too many errors in their churches. Now it has swung back again. I don't want to just tell witnesses about the mediator (which most don't know about) or the chronology and how they got it, or the blood situation and how they can even take cow's blood but don't publish all the things they can take, or the United Nations tie, or the Bulgaria lies or....well anyway I know just how you feel. Seeing them so clearly makes me want to help all those I know who are still in to clear the mud off their glasses too. It is really hard not to tell them too much. I wish all of you well in your efforts. I like many others on this board have prepared a little fact sheeet that I put out in laundromats and drs. offices without drawing attention to it. I always engage any witnesses I see, which I must say is disappointingly few. I have, just for my own pleasure put one in the door of a Kingdom Hall in Leesburg, Fla. but as I know that just builds the paranoia and the sense of persecution they have I don't make a habit of that. I have to bite my tongue when talking to my neices and nephews or else I will lose them and their parents. Patience, patience, patience. Time is on our side.
(by the way - HI Marilyn!)
Posts by Grunt
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5Ran into an old friend
by pamkw intoday at the store i ran into an old friend i grew up with.
we were both jw kids.
we both rebelled at the same time.
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Grunt
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22
Wow! I'm so glad I found you all.
by curlers ini was raised 3rd generation dub.
my dad is an elder as his dad was and my brother and the other brother is ms on the way to elderhood.
i'm df for 21 years when i was 20. the only credit i can give my parents is they're crazy would be whether they were catholic, buddist or atheist.
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Grunt
Hi Curlers and Ashraven,
Glad you got out, glad you see them for what they are and have escaped their definition of who you are. I look forward to reading your posts. -
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When I called Patterson yesterday.....
by LDH ini made a three way call, i had a family member on the other line.
i had told this person about the wtbs/un thing to which they stated, "bullshit.
i first called headquarters, they put me through to patterson.
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Grunt
Thanks MoJo,
Sadly mine is far from the worst situation on this board. Those of us who have lost loved ones to the Tower for the "sin" of questioning the cult are legion.
My daughter is one of those who "would never bring children into this awful system of things." For that I am sad to say I am grateful. As much as we would love to have grandchildren; to have them and not see them would be terrible. Once again, there are those on this board who can speak to that. We are dealing with a cult. I try to keep remembering that in dealing with my daughter. She is certain she knows so much when in fact she knows so very little and her ignorance is reinforced at every meeting and by every conditional friend. All we can do is pray that she will be among the masses who drop out every year and rejoin the normal world. Thanks for your thoughts and concern. -
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When I called Patterson yesterday.....
by LDH ini made a three way call, i had a family member on the other line.
i had told this person about the wtbs/un thing to which they stated, "bullshit.
i first called headquarters, they put me through to patterson.
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Grunt
Waiting - I'm sorry about not putting in the paragraphs. I tend to start typing a little faster than my brain functions and frequently type far too much as well as forgetting the proper forms. I will do my best to keep them shorter and to make them a little easier to read.
Good to see your name again and I think you are right, it is a kind of blind religious jingoism just like nationalism. That has been proved in the court cases like the one in Washington State and others where they closed ranks with the child molesters against the victims. JT's site hits it on the mark I think. Survival above all else, sell off any friends, parents or relatives that threaten it. Completely selfish really. I wouldn't trade my loved ones for eternal life. How ironically fair that they are doing it all for nothing. Their only real reward is their own self-righteous smugness. The approving croaks of the other frogs in their mud-bound little pond which they think is an ocean. Wouldn't it be awful if they actually got something for such cruelty?Terafera - Nice to meet you too. As for my daughter, I took it pretty hard in the beginning, but I got real mad too which was a protection. We didn't deserve such treatment. My wife didn't get mad, she just got hurt. Still is. It is tough, but what can you do? I won't be emotionally blackmailed. If I was willing to spew lies and call evil good to stay close then I really wouldn't be much of a dad.
I am grateful that my parents didn't cut me out when my daughter did. Witnesses are being told it is for our good that they should "discipline" us. My daughter said it in her shunning letter, LDH's friend says it in hers. It is the party line. They take a lot on themselves, don't they?LDH - I am so sorry for the loss of your friend. What I tell myself is that with all the tens of thousands falling away each year maybe the ones I love will be among them. Maybe your friend will be. I hope so. When and if they do get free, I hope we can forgive them and get back to a real relationship. After the years of snubs and insults, of getting evil in return for good, it will take an effort to forget all of it.
Your friend's letter sounded remarkably like the one my daughter wrote me, only a lot warmer and more personal. Mine didn't even start with "dear" it was just "Dad." It was really just a business letter. Even ended it with "In summary this research has motivated me to make a change in our relationship." The gall. Writing something like that, so impersonal, to the man whose neck she hung from while he did chin-ups, the one who sold his motorcycle to buy her a piano, the one who used to buy her icecreams and snowcones and ask her about her day at school, The one who changed her diapers and rushed her to the hospital with croup and took her shopping for her prom dresses and gave her away at her wedding. She returned the keys to the car she had been borrowing for a year with the note saying I wasn't welcome in her home. Just plain "Dad" and "In Summary." In summary she has become a zombie who has sold her own heart for eternal life, shoved her mom and me away to curry favor with her real gods in Brooklyn and got cheated in the bargain. I suspect Watchtowers of being frigid enough to turn compassion to frost and hearts to icecubes. The more contact with Brooklyn, the colder you get. Once again, I am sorry for your loss and respect your attempts to help out your friend. There is hope. Here we are, we made it out. Let's keep opening the windows and turning on the lights. Maybe some will learn to love the light again. -
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Memorial Thursday
by Georgia inmemorial is this week on thursday.. i will be travelling with my jw mother and need.
to take her to kh for memorial.
i need to explain to her why i can't go there and.
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Grunt
Hi Georgia,
There is a pretty good discussion of this sort of thing with a good link from JT on the subject under a topic by LDH I think it was, Calling Patterson. In the discussion several people bring up discussions they have had, much like the one you are thinking of having. Were it I in your stead I would explain my feelings to her but then tell her I would not partake there as it would cause her problems. I agree with you 100% on partaking. You can, and I do, partake at other times and other places, why make her and her child the subject of gossip among her friends in the congregation? Hopefully your respect and empathy could make her appreciate your love and concern for her and maybe your respect for her feelings might lead her to consider the reasoning behind your point of view a little. I would NOT put her in a position where the elders are likely to talk to her about being around APOSTATE YOU. More than one parent/child relationship has been severed by the shadow of the Tower and the misguided advice of elders. Whatever you do I wish you and your mother well. -
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Quotes, new and updated
by Quotes in*** new postings @ quotes ***.
new or updated pages in the past few weeks:.
united nations -- new.
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Grunt
Thanks so much for all your hard work and for such a great site. I didn't know about it but will be using it.
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38
When I called Patterson yesterday.....
by LDH ini made a three way call, i had a family member on the other line.
i had told this person about the wtbs/un thing to which they stated, "bullshit.
i first called headquarters, they put me through to patterson.
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Grunt
First, hello to all, it has been a while since I posted here. It always feels good to come back and see the intelligence and fervor of my comrades in arms as we engage the Tower in a struggle for our loved ones. God, that sounds like a recruiting poster when I read back over it! Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that when I read your experiences and see how well you have put things and with what energy you too are struggling, it makes me feel much better about my own plight and about the efforts of others like us around the world. Man, that didn't help much. Forget it. LDH, I have had the same experience. I am trying to get my family back also. I like being on the same side of this thing as you are because like you, I push and try to show the facts. It cost me a daughter though, so be careful. Like JT's link says, it won't happen quick or easy no matter how glaring the proof. I will tell you one deal I had with my dad, much like your own.
My dad, God bless him, is quite a guy. I have always admired him because he always went his own way and tried to do what he thought was right, whether conventional or not. To give you an example, he was a heli-arc welder on the missile sites out west, became convinced they weren't building them all for nothing, quit a great job working on them and moved to a remote area in the South where he thought in case of nuclear conflagration we would be safest, bought some land and built a bomb shelter. He didn't worry about what the neighbors thought, (bomb shelters were rare in backwoods Alabama) he did what he thought was right for the family. Well, Dad got involved with the Witnesses though family, the trinity, not killing and hell-fire and all that were just too much to overcome. Once he got convinced then he got in, he is pioneering as I write this. Still, he kept his own head to a certain degree, wouldn't refuse to shake hands with my cousins when they were disfellowshipped, still talks to me and lets me stay with them and spend a lot of time there with he and Mom when I have it. This last despite his knowing I am out and against the Society though I took my family and moved before my attitudes could get me disfellowshipped or da'd. I'm glad I did as it saved Mom and Dad the stigma of having me Disfellowshipped (except by my daughter the zealot). Anyway, Dad is convinced he is right, and always brings it up for which I am grateful, I guess. Unless one day I step on his toes too hard and lose them. I need to walk more softly with Dad. Last discussion we had went like this. Sitting in the living room in his home after a giant southern meal with several meats and umpteen vegetables, Mom and my wife cleaning up in the kitchen. Out of the blue...."Son, you've got to think about what you are doing, who else you are affecting and get back into the fold." me-"Dad, knowing the pain the Organization causes and some of the important things they have lied about, I couldn't do it." him-"Well, you have to look at the big picture, this is the only org. on the earth teaching the same thing around the world." me"Teaching a lie around the world is not impressive, you are just misleading more people. That is bad, not good. The Catholics do the same thing, so do the Mormons." him-"What is the big thing that bothers you?" me-"Remember that you brought this up, OK? You are welcome to believe what you want and I don't want to lose you and mom, I've lost my little girl for saying much less to her than I have already said to you." him-"You read that book written so long ago with the stuff on the pyramids and you can't forget it even though it is no longer relevant." me-"That bothered me and got me looking, and I found a lot. We've had this conversation before. If I had to say right now though, I'd say the single biggest thing is the mediatorship. The Society saying that Jesus is not the mediator for everyone, only for the 144,000." him-"We don't believe that. It says he is the only mediator for all men." me-"Yeah, well, I am glad you see it that way. I agree, but the Society says it is only for the 144,000 and that in fact they wind up "rendering" the ransom sacrifice during the 1000 year reign for everyone else. They put themselves in Christ's place or at least between Christ and you. Look here, you've got the bound volumes lets look it up." We look it up in the questions from the readers, and I point out the brackets they put in saying [not all men] which reverses the meaning of the verse. me-"See Dad? They twist it completely. They make themselves co-mediators when the scripture says there is one mediator and that is Christ." him- silence, reads and re-reads, then in matter of fact voice "OK, so they are all mediators. What are YOU doing to promote the work? I guess if they are the high priests they can be mediators too. What are you doing to help your neighbor learn about Jehovah?" me-"Dad, you just swallowed a giant lie, you just reversed your beliefs that quick? Now they can all be mediators, when you said yourself a few minutes ago that there was only one mediator?" him-"Son, they have people, smart people, up there studying the bible all the time. They have people who are experts in languages and who have Jehovah's Spirit on them and a special understanding. How did you learn all you know? From them. Now, if they say they will be mediators then I believe them. This is the only Organization doing Jehovah's will and wearing His Name on this earth, and you are rejecting them. Now what are you going to do to correct that? Think about your wife and kids. Think about your duty to help your neighbor, who else are you going to join to really serve Jehovah? Who else has the fruitage? No one." me-"Dad, if there is a group in the world that lacks the fruitage, it is this one. My own daughter won't have me in her home because I asked a question she couldn't answer and because I dare to question this group. Not for any sin mentioned in the bible, but for questioning this bunch. She shared my letters with her elders without asking me and they told her it was a conscience deal but ADVISED her to "limit her association" with me. She cut her mom and me out of her life. I live fifty miles away and haven't been invited to her home in the three years since she "changed our relationship" as she so lovingly put it. They twisted her into shunning me and she threw her mom in as part of the bargain even though she'd never even been a witness. They not only don't love their neighbor, they don't show love to even their parents which violates everything in the bible. Look at Matthew chapt.15 and see what Christ said about that. If you are willing to swallow a lie and love it then there are some scriptures you need to look at again real close. I've lost my little girl. I don't want to lose you and Mom. Let's drop it before they (my mom and my wife) come in from the kitchen. Think about the mediatorship thing, study it some. Don't let them feed you this lie." him-"There is only one group, this is it. Name another free from prejudice and willing to die rather than kill. You look at what you are doing and remember that you are supposed to join yourself together with other believers, we are the other believers. Don't reject the rule to come together with other believers. Are you doing that?" me-"Yeah, Dad, I think I do it enough to count through conversations at work and on the net, and I did just try to talk to you about believing the truth, and not just what men tell you. Let's drop it but look this up and really study it. Read all the places in the Gospels where it is talking about the Last Supper, see that you have to partake of the blood to be in the Covenant, it is the Blood of the Covenant. If you aren't in the covenant then Christ isn't your mediator, and there are no other mediators, read Timothy again for yourself, there is ONE mediator between god and man, not a bunch"
I ended the conversation there as I will not talk about it with or in front of my mom. She deals all from the heart, not the head and as I said, I don't want to lose them. Mom and Dad are and have been great parents and are now nearly 80. I couldn't stand not to be able to help them and be around them in their old age, not just for myself but because they need me and will need me even more soon. The next time I am around Dad he will probably ask me what I am doing to identify myself and am I talking to my neighbors, that I'd better assemble myself with the Witnesses as told to and we will go around again. Dad erases what he doesn't want to hear. He and mom are old, all their friends are in their congregation, today he is probably standing in a parking lot in a small town in Alabama arguing about hell-fire and the trinity with any Baptist or Pentecostal he can get to stop. Hard worker, great Dad, had 18 acres of land and a new home paid for at 35, always worked hard and helped anyone who asked, great husband and grandfather, but swallowed whole by a group of liars in Brooklyn. At least he hasn't let them cut me out of his and Mom's life. I love them both with all my heart and wish I could pull them and my daughter and her husband out of the cesspool of lies they have fallen into. They are too good to be a part of the filth in Brooklyn. -
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Jehovah's Witnesses are like smoking
by Grunt inalmost all of those who begin eventually want to quit.
that is the best thing about this religion, the near certainty that you will eventually quit it.
that is also the thing that keeps me most hopeful in regards to relatives still "in.
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Grunt
Almost all of those who begin eventually want to quit. That is the best thing about this religion, the near certainty that you will eventually quit it. That is also the thing that keeps me most hopeful in regards to relatives still "in." They, or almost certainly their children, are nearly certain to be free again, it is just a matter of time. For the older ones who have put in so many years and who now have to face death wrapped in this pack of lies, it is especially sad to watch. Would that I could help them to an "accurate knowledge of the truth" so they would leave this cult and have a few good, normal years, but as with the smokers, the longer they have done it the harder it is to quit.
Hello to all of you old timers. Just dropped in to see how things are and to read a few posts. I hope all of you are doing well.
Just another old -
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dealing with shunning
by serenaj92 ini had a nonreligious email that was just cute and funny and sent it to everyone i considered a friend.
some were witnesses.
one gal, sara, sent me a letter of reply.
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Grunt
Hi Serena,
I'm sorry you are having to go through the pain of realizing that friends, or even family, who are part of the Jehovah's Witnesses are conditional friends. Conditional in two senses, one in that they are only friends when YOU meet the conditions laid down by the cult headquarters in New York through the Watchtower, and also conditional in that THEY have been conditioned to cut any tie, however close, when it starts to theaten their faith in this sad groups thinly supported belief system. I'm glad you made it out. If your husband still attends I hope he is soon able to see and feel why you left.I wish you well,
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Why My Wife and I Have No Kids
by JT in*** g74 11/8 ***9 is this the time to have children?there has always been a positive attitude about childbearing.
*** g74 11/8 10 is this the time to have children?
what does imminent mean?
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Grunt
Hi JT,
First time I have been on the board in a long time and as I always read your posts here I am with supper and the NEWS waiting while I post an answer to you.
Short and sweet, you did the right thing waiting. What if you'd had kids and brainwashed them? I don't need to tell you how many on this board have immediate family, including kids, that treat them as "dead." So now is the ideal time to have kids! Now you can raise them free of the cult. Besides, having kids when you are a little older and with a little more money will make it more enjoyable for all of you. I take so many trips now that I wish I had been able to take when we were raising the kids. I wish you and your wife happiness. It will be a lucky child that has you two for parents. Take care.