reniaa

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Posts by reniaa

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  343

  I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

  by Witness 007 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

  the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

  now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

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  reniaa

  In the end I think the biggest arguement against the trinity is if you believe the bible is inspired by God because it was not written for scholars that can go into the hidden meaning of words or deeply debate,

  Well that is very, very convenient. A scholar proves a biblical point - well you can always argue it wasn't written for scholars.

  No what a scholar can do is make total gobbledegook sound like facts and blind you with science...

  Just because something sounds feasible from a scholar doesn't mean it is, most of the time it's just their opinion and you have to be really careful of that!

  Half of the explanations on this thread have been Peoples opinion of what something should mean, the cs lewis stuff is exactly that he goes off in to fiction to describe a way for us to try and understand the trinity,

  excert from earlier post of cs-lewis info

  Now the Christian account of God involves just the same principle. The human level is a simple and rather empty level. On the human level one person is one being, and any two persons are two separate beings - just as, in two dimensions (say on a flat sheet of paper) one square is one figure, and any two squares are two separate figures. On the Divine level you still find personalities; but up there you find them combined in new ways which we, who do not live on that level, cannot imagine. In God's dimension, so to speak, you find a being who is three Persons while remaining one Being, just as a cube is six squares while remaining one cube. Of course we cannot fully conceive a Being like that: just as, if we were so made that we perceived only two dimensions in space we could never properly imagine a cube. But we can get a sort of faint notion of it. And when we do, we are then, for the first time in our lives, getting some positive idea, however faint, of something super-personal - something more than a person.

  this sounds all very credible but it's pure fiction and opinion, it's not facts!

  Saying elohim (GOD) can be plural doesn't take away from the fact that the masculine presentation means it was purely used to say one God that is a fact of the hebrew language. but a scholar can pretend that fact doesn't exist and can make you think that pluralising elohim is allowable but any jew could set us straight on that.

  Next FACT there are more scriptures that describe jesus and God as separate and jesus as lower than God, than those that if taken alone may make you think hmmm maybe there is something to this trinity thing, So sheer majority vote has the single God belief as winning.

  And finally like I said if God wanted us to believe he was a trinity why not just write it, why use description father and son etc that are going to make any person view jesus as his son if they just read the bible for the first time.

  I just think if you have to twist scriptures and then your mind into loops to believe in the trinity then alarm bells should be going off, I don't have to twist my mind into believing a father and son are separate it's natural and it's biology.

  reniaa
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  15

  Busted Dreams--11/1/1989 Style (Big puke alert)

  by WTWizard in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  so here is the dreaded 11/1/1989 puketower article.

  this is the one that said "you are not going to do fornication, and you are not going to marry outside the cult".

  effectively, this has killed many a dream marriage, and stopped people from having any fun.. oddly enough, the opening paragraph tells us that jehovah is not out to bust up our fun.

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  reniaa

  But as a sufferer of the second decide your own morals group, were the father of my current child says he conscience allows him to walk away from me despite his religiousness and church. And how to explain to my fatherless kids when they are older?

  I think if left alone people have morals that are definitely motivated on the whole from personal selfish reasons, if they are moral and treat someone nice and with respect it's the exception rather than the norm in my experiance.

  Why is the first thing some people do when leaving JW's and perhaps even earlier is jump into bed with other people and leave spouses and kids with no thought of the consequences? I felt like putting a topic like that but I didn't want to get flamed lol but sometimes you do get the impression that they blame the Witnesses out of convenience if they want to leave a crumbling marriage or have more sex, rather than say I just couldn't live with not having sex with more than one person or I didn't love my spouse anymore and wanted to be able to divorce and find someone new.

  I see more TV talkshows occasionally and on one hand they are all "leave your spouse,relationship find someone new if they are that bad" then in the next breath they are "young teen single mothers are leaching off the care system etc" when you know they are just being hypocrites. the current reports are marriage as it currently stands will be an a outmoded institute by 2050 which is fine but personally I think the children will suffer. Surely somethings in life are more important than SEX although you wouldn't believe it if you watch the TV.

  When it comes to morality on fornication and adultery I think the bible has a point, I won't say WT bacause in this case they are following teachings of the bible. To assume people will make the right moral choices if given the freedom is to be unrealistic when all evidence points to the contrary.

  Sorry do I sound bitter, I'm pregnant and offloading today and all that might sound rubbish but I felt i needed to say it thx guys :)
• 
  15

  Busted Dreams--11/1/1989 Style (Big puke alert)

  by WTWizard in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  so here is the dreaded 11/1/1989 puketower article.

  this is the one that said "you are not going to do fornication, and you are not going to marry outside the cult".

  effectively, this has killed many a dream marriage, and stopped people from having any fun.. oddly enough, the opening paragraph tells us that jehovah is not out to bust up our fun.

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  reniaa

  this is what gets to me there's 2 groups of issues those that inc blood, dates of invisible coming etc that can be said to be purely of witness origin.

  Then we get this second group which are clearly of bible origin like fornicating and sex only inside marraige, shall we start calling the bible puke-bible for it?

  reniaa
• 
  7

  Has my mom given up?

  by Princess Daisy Boo in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so with the memorial a mere 3 days away i was not heard a word from her about it?

  each year i am told at what time it will be at the local congregation and some years she has even got one of the local witnesses to contact me to invite me (they even offered to fetch me once!)..

  i am assuming that she has decided not to bring up the subject after the talk we had a few weeks ago, but this must be eating away at her big time!.

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  reniaa

  Maybe it's just a case of her realising that atm you are not interested, there is a point where you just have to accept were people are at and so this is a good time to keep bonds strong and loving.

  lol you almost sound piqued that she hasn't tried this year.
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  343

  I hate the Watchtower but I really still hate the Trinity Jesus is NOT God!

  by Witness 007 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  some bibles use the term "worship" when refering to jesus...at times people did fall down and bow to him........this doesn't show he was god!

  the greek term; proskeyneo, means to prostrate oneself, to bow down and show honour.

  now, this was done for jehovah.....and his representatives....jesus israelite kings and priests....but for the honour of jehovah not as creature worship which even angels would refuse.. also i studied the non-biblical early church gospels which really does show a slow decline over 150 years, into the trinity as the watchtower claims...........although i still hate the watchtower society at least i learnt something that wasn't a lie..

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  reniaa

  It's still all assumpations and twisting scriptures to fit your own viewpoint, In the end I think the biggest arguement against the trinity is if you believe the bible is inspired by God because it was not written for scholars that can go into the hidden meaning of words or deeply debate,

  It was written so any person could read and understand...and from that God says he is a the father and jesus is his only begotten son, God knows what a normal everyday man would make of that sort of relationship because he created our biology so in using that as a way to describe himself and jesus he's showing quite clearly their relationship. is that Father and son separate and unique, A father and son can be very similar though looking alike maybe thinking the same but they have still got their own conscousness separate to each other to make decisions separately.

  If jehovah wanted to make a trinity arguement for himself he would have used better examples like twins etc that too would have been understood. No where in the bible does it say trinity, no where in the bible does it say 3 in one, the holy spirit doesn't get a look in you get the impression that was tacked onto the trinity because men dug a hole for themselves by twisting jesus and God together they had to add that too. Others are right when I view the trinity doctrine I have to send my mind in scriptural mindloops to try and believe it. But the simplicity of believing in father and son as separate beings as the bible describes appeals on a major level to me.

  reniaa
• 
  66

  What do you do when you exit and your wife stays in?

  by Quirky1 in

  1. social
  2. relationships

  i have recently left the wts and almost have my da letter ready to send.

  my wife is still in and is higly upset by my stand.

  she is afraid she'll lose her parents because they are still jw's and refuses to leave the wts, she still beleives it.

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  reniaa

  I feel for you, If you still love and respect your partner it's worth working on to save your marriage,

  I'll be honest one of reasons I faded was because of a failing marriage even though my partner wasn't a JW I knew in a small part of myself that I couldn't leave him while I was a witness.

  I think you soon realise this once you fade DA etc if it's other issues besides JW's that influence your decision especially if it is a failed relationship, But thats also why if you love each other it's important to try and save that love, theres no guarantee you will find it again outside of the JW's although many have,

  reniaa
• 
  181

  It looks like I will become an elder this week!

  by outofthebox in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  that's right guys.

  as i told you before, they boe have been considering me for the eldership.

  which i don't care for, but since my family is stuck in this cult, i guess i can use the new position to help them see that the holy spirit has nothing to do with me being an elder.

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  reniaa

  Here's his list of accomplishments so far from his original posts words,

  So far ...

  I faked my hours
  I have celebrated my first birthday
  I have been writing in this forum
  I have been reading "apostate" literature
  I have been showing the hard truths to my family and several elders
  I don't comment in the meetings, unless is from the Bible
  I don't close my eyes in the prayers or agree to them with an "amen"
  I have talked to disfellowshipped people
  I am swearing a little
  And I don't believe for a second the JW are the true religion

  Does any of these sound positive things to do? or do they sound like someone having a joke and taking pleasure in thumbing his nose at the organisation?

  Gopher I don't think his words support your hopeful view,

  While it's correct to point out that OOTB would be walking a tightrope if he accepted an appointment as elder, he doesn't strike me as one who would be unkind towards people who need kindness.

  He's to wrapped up in the "game" to think of others thats why i'm concerned but enough said.
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  383

  Thinking of becoming a Witness again and my reasons for doing so :(

  by reniaa in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i've been a faded jw for 10 years i left because of my failed first marriage, i'm no hypocrite and realised i had left completely so i embraced the world and dived in, only christmas and birthdays i could not get into, they were too foreign to me having never celebrated them, like if i suddenly tried to do ramadan or something like that.. 1/ all the criticisms of the people in the truth you say on here, i've found in the world, warts and all only in the world nothing holds them back from being utterly horrible to you.. 2/ i got stabbed by a worldly boyfriend, i got married 2 times of my own choosing to men outside the truth, the first smoked and was an alcoholic, the second gambled every penny we had and defrauded me out of money after we separated, 2 divorces later i am currently pregnant and a single mum since current boyfriend decided kids was to much of a responsibility and he needed his freedom and i was 'too selfish to expect him to give up his life'.. 3/ parents-in-law!

  i have been shunned by them as equal to anything you accuse witness families of and for the silliest of reasons, i had a disabled son and his grandparents said they wanted nothing to do with him because they didn't want to become attached in case he died.. 4/ i miss the honest friendships of the truth, i had friends of all ages from 14 to 80 years old and they genuinely cared for me, many trying to keep me in the faith a long time after i left but i was determined to fade so moved away completely, but i find friendships in the world so shallow in comparison and very hard to sustain :( i've never been a drinker and sometimes thats what friendship means you being a companion for them to goto pub with.. 5/ my recent boyfriend was in a christian religion, i thought why not find out about it, harvest churches if you ever heard of them, unfortunately it still hasn't stop him leaving me pregnant and alone and when i said to him how does he clear that with god, he replies "as long as i repent it doesn't matter" it's like he has a "get out of jail free card" for any wrong-doing in the bible, this is so alien to me and my witness trained conscience.. 6/ i recently out of frustration tried looking into atheism and joined their forums, it wasn't fun, they are as bombastic and arrogant as their religious counterparts can be from any religion, they make a religion out of not believing in god, it's very weird they talk of saving people from believing in god and offer nothing to replace it.

  they said to me "be happy you are in reality now and enjoy it" and i thought "well if this is reality i've had enough of it".

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  reniaa

  I think it's time this thread went to happy thread land! but if you and leo could give me one example of where other religions haven't been controlled by governing men either one or more inc the teachings and practices from Paul onwards, I'd be surprised! Men where given the responsibility to present the bible to other men once jesus died, you and I can't change this fact, and If I quibble that I say what you accuse JW's of has been done by all Christian faiths that doesn't stop me being right.

  All I can say is each person has to judge for themselves which faith presents to their satisfaction what they themselves closely find in the scriptures and from jesus's words if Christian, other faiths also have similar criteria in this way.

  I have my doubts about JW's but I'm struggling still to find an alternative that fits my current beliefs. On this i have been totally honest from the start, but this thread has given me food for thought especially info from leolaia :)

  reniaa
• 
  181

  It looks like I will become an elder this week!

  by outofthebox in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  that's right guys.

  as i told you before, they boe have been considering me for the eldership.

  which i don't care for, but since my family is stuck in this cult, i guess i can use the new position to help them see that the holy spirit has nothing to do with me being an elder.

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  reniaa

  Reniaa,

  I think you've expressed yourself, and we aren't under any illusions as to your take on this!

  Shell69

  I'm not doing this to make a point, but because I feel genuine concern for the lad involved, I'll say lad because outofthebox sounds very young and foolish, certainly hasn't consider the consequences. I would have thought those of experience on these forums would realise that a lot of these type of actions often rebound on the perpertrator, Outofthebox says he has family and friends in JW's and that is why he is still involved, it's also a another reason why he shouldn't be doing this and also why you shouldn't be encouraging him. You guys only know what he's told you and have no idea what the consequences will be to him or those he has influence with.

  I think we would better be trying to support him in positive actions (especially ex-elders and ms) not in doing something he see only as a joke and a game from his very words. This is real life!

  reniaa

  I said all I'm going to say but in this case I don't think this forum has done much good.

  Outofthebox I hope you reconsider your actions and try to find a positive way to be with your family and friends through this, get some new positive interests to stop you dwelling on something you hate now. I'm taking your words are the truth and so I would say that a lot of EX-Jw's on here have manage to get away from the WTS in positive ways maybe talk to some of them for advice.
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  181

  It looks like I will become an elder this week!

  by outofthebox in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  that's right guys.

  as i told you before, they boe have been considering me for the eldership.

  which i don't care for, but since my family is stuck in this cult, i guess i can use the new position to help them see that the holy spirit has nothing to do with me being an elder.

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  reniaa

  He's playing with peoples lives by not being honest.

  the WTS has been playing with peoples lives for over a hundred years.

  So Two wrongs make a right? we become what we hate, to do what? And if he damages people by words and actions in conflict, people, old, young, depressed and ill who however misguided, look to elders for guidance with love and respect..your saying because so many elders are corrupted, deceitful, dishonest etc so adding another one deliberately doesn't matter? Your reasoning is floored people.

  This is quite repugnant to me that so many people would support this level of deceit on this forum (I am fairly new to this forum and this support has honestly shocked me), how much more heinous is a bad act when done deliberately? Elders who are bad and do wrong things can answer to god themselves for their actions but if you guys are trying to put yourself in a higher moral position than WT in this case you have failed miserbly by supporting this deception.

  reniaa