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  7

  God on Trial - #3 - Standard of Justice

  by Amazing in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  eating fruit: when eve and then adam ate the fruit, they were given the death penalty and low productivity yield from their food growing efforts.

  but, they did get a nice long life, somewhere around 900-930 years.. murder: cain murdered his own brother, abel.

  cain whines to jehovah about how severe his punishment is, too great to bear, and jehovah consents to put a mark on him so that no one will harm cain.

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  individual

  What does David say to Jehovah after this mass slaughter?.

  This:

  "Here it is I that have sinned and it is I that have done wrong; but these sheep -what have they done?..."(2sam 24:17)

  Good question! What did they do? David is the one who took the census.

  Apparently God feels no need to follow his own laws:

  "Fathers should not be put to death on account of children, and children should not be put to death on account of fathers. Each one should be put to death for his own sin" Dt.24:16

  How about this for a thought... based on the evidence of the bible on how God was responding to humans and how the bible relates his feelings about how He had acted towards humans i.e the feelings of regret after He had destroyed humanity in the Flood, it seems to me that He was learning how to deal with chaotic situations. God is perfect apparently but when He created life which is naturally chaotic, humans have intelligence and can think for themselves, He created something that not only interested Him but that acted in new and surprising ways, life could take any direction it wanted. Things happen out of the blue. Even the bible says 'unforeseen circumstances'.

  Along the way God has taken some incredibly harsh decisions, I always remember the WT on blessings and maledictions which talked about how a malediction came on to some boys that had been taunting Gods prophet Elisha, they were killed by bears because they teased him (2Kings 2:24)

  'Finally he turned behind him and saw them and called down evil upon them in the name of Jehovah. Then two she-bears came out from the woods and went tearing to pieces 42 children of their number'.

  The reason for this is that they were saying ' Go up you bald head, go up you bald head'. Interesting to note that this took place at Bethel!

  Now this does not seem like the actions of a perfect God - after all these were just children doing what children do - tease! And it seems a bit harsh to rip them to pieces because of their immaturity, no matter what they said.

  Is this an example of perfect justice??
  This is just one example of many from the old testament, but in the new testament He seems to be a completely different God. Is this because He had learnt to deal with humans in a more subtle and dare I say it, humane way? I have raised this sort of issue with an elder before but I was told that I should never question God and his motives are perfect. But the evidence just speaks for itself.

  Heres another thought for you.. how would a person be viewed today if he wrote a book about his lifestory that contained some of the horrors that are within the old testament? But during the second half of the book he said he had changed... would you trust him? Wouldn't he need to explain himself and prove himself? To me I feel that God is responsible for everything that has happened in the past to humanity and He has to share the responsibility of what is happening now in various parts of the world. As a human I would not be able to stand by and watch children being hurt and murdered in the way that they are in todays world - if I stood by and just watched these things happening right before my eyes (just as God does) I would have to share in the responsibility for the wrongs that are being committed. If a woman was being raped right in front of me and I did nothing to help I would be as guilty as those carrying out the act. I feel that God has been responsible for a lot that has happened in the old testament but He gives no evidence or any justification of why He did it in the name of justice.

  In a perfect world He would want us to understand why He did all the things He did, but the evidence of the old testament is wanting, it is lacking in feelings of humanity.
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  26

  how have YOU changed since leaving?

  by idaho in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it's obvious that the sense of freedom is a dominant.

  feeling among most persons here, but it would be .

  interesting to hear in what way(s) you feel you .

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  individual

  I no longer look for the worst in people, I look for the best, no longer look for the bad, I look for the good. In the org. you look at the black spots on the white sheet of paper, no matter how small those black spots are, now I just concentrate on that white piece of paper and choose to accept people as they are.
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  28

  Where Do I Go Now?

  by individual in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  with all the problems in the 'truth' and all the things that we know are wrong with it there seems to be aspects of their theology (i.e the sequences of the world powers, statue in daniel, the promise of world restoration again found in daniel) that to me still make sense.

  although i cannot follow a religion that believes in the destruction of all humanity barring those that respond to their own preaching work i still believe in a creator and cannot accept the teachings of other religions that have no purpose for the earth and believe that mankinds only destiny is in heaven.

  my mind keeps telling me that if god was behind a religion it would be so much better than that of the jws.

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  individual

  Sorry Logical - didn't mean to confuse you! It just doubled up somehow, don't know why.......

  Thats one reason I changed the subject heading on one of them, trying to differentiate between the two so as not to confuse people!

  I've read your comments with interest and it has given me a lot to think about.
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  24

  Where Do I Go Now? Is There An Answer??

  by individual in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  with all the problems in the 'truth' and all the things that we know are wrong with it there seems to be aspects of their theology (i.e the sequences of the world powers, statue in daniel, the promise of world restoration again found in daniel) that to me still make sense.

  although i cannot follow a religion that believes in the destruction of all humanity barring those that respond to their own preaching work i still believe in a creator and cannot accept the teachings of other religions that have no purpose for the earth and believe that mankinds only destiny is in heaven.

  my mind keeps telling me that if god was behind a religion it would be so much better than that of the jws.

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  individual

  It is only when reading these replies that I realise just how much my thinking was influenced by the JWs. They teach you that the only way you can learn about God is through them, that there is no point reading the bible without their aid and no point praying to God unless you are a member of their religion, and there is definitely no point praying to Jesus.

  I asked a MS once, who is now an elder, why he was in the organisation, his reply was that there was nowhere else to go, nobody else has the truth. Other elders during public talks decried other religions and accused the churches who help others of being goody-goodies, how ridiculous. I was very angry at their labelling of the kindness of others as being self-righteous. Their term 'goody-goody' was derogatory. Their influence on your way of thinking is so strong that it makes it hard to envisage any other route to God and Christ.

  It was interesting also to note that during a WT study a couple of years ago an elder put up his hand and made a comment that we as a group do not talk about the Christ enough, we concentrate on God. I was quite surprised but it made me think at the time that how can this religion be a route to Christ when even this elder was concerned that not enough emphasis was put on Him by the so-called faithful and discreet slave. Not many people picked up on his comment, he only said it as an aside in answer to a question and it was quickly papered over. But it did confirm my feelings at the time, that although the publications talked of Christs new kingdom it mostly emphasized Jehovah, and Christ was just a side issue.

  I feel now that I would like to take on some of the suggestions that I should pray for Christ to be in my life but I feel that the WT indoctrination is the thing that is holding me back. I remember when I got baptized as a JW, I was expecting something to be different, something to happen, maybe a feeling or something, anything. But there was nothing.. I got congratulated but felt no different at all, I was now able to vote at meetings (making sure to agree with the elders motions of course, as everybody does!) but I felt absolutely no different inside at all. I suppose I worry that it will be the same even if I pray.

  So at the end of all this a person feels directionless. It is almost as if God has abandoned me. It is interesting to note from your replies that a lot of people have felt the same way and it is encouraging to see that people do move on from this. I wonder how many people are still in the org. only because they dont know where else to go.
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  28

  Where Do I Go Now?

  by individual in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  with all the problems in the 'truth' and all the things that we know are wrong with it there seems to be aspects of their theology (i.e the sequences of the world powers, statue in daniel, the promise of world restoration again found in daniel) that to me still make sense.

  although i cannot follow a religion that believes in the destruction of all humanity barring those that respond to their own preaching work i still believe in a creator and cannot accept the teachings of other religions that have no purpose for the earth and believe that mankinds only destiny is in heaven.

  my mind keeps telling me that if god was behind a religion it would be so much better than that of the jws.

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  individual

  Thank you for all your comments so far, it helps to know that people understand.

  And to Bikerchic - welcome to the board and thank you for your first post. There is certainly a long road ahead of us. Nice to know we are not on our own...

  By the way, why this thread doubled up - I have no idea....
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  24

  Where Do I Go Now? Is There An Answer??

  by individual in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  with all the problems in the 'truth' and all the things that we know are wrong with it there seems to be aspects of their theology (i.e the sequences of the world powers, statue in daniel, the promise of world restoration again found in daniel) that to me still make sense.

  although i cannot follow a religion that believes in the destruction of all humanity barring those that respond to their own preaching work i still believe in a creator and cannot accept the teachings of other religions that have no purpose for the earth and believe that mankinds only destiny is in heaven.

  my mind keeps telling me that if god was behind a religion it would be so much better than that of the jws.

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  individual

  Where do I go now?

  With all the problems in the 'truth' and all the things that we know are wrong with it there seems to be aspects of their theology (i.e the sequences of the world powers, statue in Daniel, the promise of world restoration again found in Daniel) that to me still make sense.

  Although I cannot follow a religion that believes in the destruction of all humanity barring those that respond to their own preaching work I still believe in a Creator and cannot accept the teachings of other religions that have no purpose for the earth and believe that mankinds only destiny is in heaven.

  My mind keeps telling me that if God was behind a religion it would be so much better than that of the JWs. Not only would the religion have an accurate belief but also would not be so harsh and judgemental, but instead would be one of love.

  I havent been to a meeting now since last November but I find myself in a quandry all the time, forever battling with the desire to serve God. The problem with this is that no other religion in my mind matches up with their basic beliefs in the world restoration and their understanding of the sequence of world powers in bible prophecy.

  I spent 25 years under this religion and it is very hard to see the bible or life in a different way. I keep reminding myself that their ban on birthdays for example is stupid, why would God be upset because someone reached 5 years old and you said 'happy birthday, well done!'. I also didn't like the way they rely on money more than God and the way they bully the rank and file, it reminds me of the warning about the evil slave class which is the faithful and discreet slave having gone bad. The scripture says that they bully their fellows, which cannot be apostates because they are outside of the congregation. They are no longer the fellows of those still in the 'truth'. That scripture in Matthew 24 was quite a clear warning to me at the time that they could go bad.

  As well as feeling that they have gone bad, I also feel that some of the theology from the bible was correct, is there any truth out there in this world?

  Where do I go from here?? The one thing that I was looking for was a religion with a similar belief system, that the world would be put right and that religion would have love amongst itself and would also rely completely on God and Jesus. So where is it? Does it exist? Is it just futile to search for such a religion? Or has God not yet brought it into the world yet? It has been suggested that I go to other churches to sample their beliefs yet I feel that would be hypocritical of me because their theologies are so far removed from anything I could accept.

  The only comfort I get is from Matthew 25 where Jesus said that he would give talents of different values to different ones, he describes these ones as good and faithful slaves but he indicates that there is more than one good and faithful slave which indicates to me that he gave different levels of truth to different slave groups. He expected more from those that he gave more 'truth' to and the warning in Matthew 24:48-51 would apply to those that had let him down.He indicated that those who let him down would say - 'the master was delaying and would start to bully their fellow slaves'. If he gave 'truth' to different groups, which I am absolutely certain was what he meant by that scripture, then there would be other religions out there with some truth in them.

  Although I have twinges towards the 'truth' (because of spending so much time in there) I feel that they have let Christ down so where do I go now???
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  28

  Where Do I Go Now?

  by individual in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  with all the problems in the 'truth' and all the things that we know are wrong with it there seems to be aspects of their theology (i.e the sequences of the world powers, statue in daniel, the promise of world restoration again found in daniel) that to me still make sense.

  although i cannot follow a religion that believes in the destruction of all humanity barring those that respond to their own preaching work i still believe in a creator and cannot accept the teachings of other religions that have no purpose for the earth and believe that mankinds only destiny is in heaven.

  my mind keeps telling me that if god was behind a religion it would be so much better than that of the jws.

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  individual

  Where do I go now?

  With all the problems in the 'truth' and all the things that we know are wrong with it there seems to be aspects of their theology (i.e the sequences of the world powers, statue in Daniel, the promise of world restoration again found in Daniel) that to me still make sense.

  Although I cannot follow a religion that believes in the destruction of all humanity barring those that respond to their own preaching work I still believe in a Creator and cannot accept the teachings of other religions that have no purpose for the earth and believe that mankinds only destiny is in heaven.

  My mind keeps telling me that if God was behind a religion it would be so much better than that of the JWs. Not only would the religion have an accurate belief but also would not be so harsh and judgemental, but instead would be one of love.

  I havent been to a meeting now since last November but I find myself in a quandry all the time, forever battling with the desire to serve God. The problem with this is that no other religion in my mind matches up with their basic beliefs in the world restoration and their understanding of the sequence of world powers in bible prophecy.

  I spent 25 years under this religion and it is very hard to see the bible or life in a different way. I keep reminding myself that their ban on birthdays for example is stupid, why would God be upset because someone reached 5 years old and you said 'happy birthday, well done!'. I also didn't like the way they rely on money more than God and the way they bully the rank and file, it reminds me of the warning about the evil slave class which is the faithful and discreet slave having gone bad. The scripture says that they bully their fellows, which cannot be apostates because they are outside of the congregation. They are no longer the fellows of those still in the 'truth'. That scripture in Matthew 24 was quite a clear warning to me at the time that they could go bad.

  As well as feeling that they have gone bad, I also feel that some of the theology from the bible was correct, is there any truth out there in this world?

  Where do I go from here?? The one thing that I was looking for was a religion with a similar belief system, that the world would be put right and that religion would have love amongst itself and would also rely completely on God and Jesus. So where is it? Does it exist? Is it just futile to search for such a religion? Or has God not yet brought it into the world yet? It has been suggested that I go to other churches to sample their beliefs yet I feel that would be hypocritical of me because their theologies are so far removed from anything I could accept.

  The only comfort I get is from Matthew 25 where Jesus said that he would give talents of different values to different ones, he describes these ones as good and faithful slaves but he indicates that there is more than one good and faithful slave which indicates to me that he gave different levels of truth to different slave groups. He expected more from those that he gave more 'truth' to and the warning in Matthew 24:48-51 would apply to those that had let him down.He indicated that those who let him down would say - 'the master was delaying and would start to bully their fellow slaves'. If he gave 'truth' to different groups, which I am absolutely certain was what he meant by that scripture, then there would be other religions out there with some truth in them.

  Although I have twinges towards the 'truth' (because of spending so much time in there) I feel that they have let Christ down so where do I go now???
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  81

  RUSSIA GOES FOR THE GOLD

  by You Know in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this present system is definitely finished.

  the present system being the anglo-american dollar dominated system.

  it is in the final stages of collapse as is becoming more obvious by the day.

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  individual

  You Know is representative of an interesting development from within the confins of the org. It is a development that has happened before after the death of Russell. That development is a schism, one that always develops in a beleif system when the disappointment of failed promises leads followers onto differing paths. The disappointment of the org.s promises has lead You Know and others to make more and more extreme statments concerning world affairs in order for them to justify their desire for the systems end. They cannot face up to the failures of the org.s prophetic interpretations.
  I wonder how many more like You Know are currently serving as JW,s. I would think that the org. is very concerned by this development from within its own borders. The fact that he is writing to the society expressing his strange views must have their attention. Schisms are an indication of stress from within. The rank and file members are questioning the authority of the org. by giving their own opinion on prophecy, it shows a weakening of the gov bodys control.
  Schisms represent a very interesting development in the history of the org.
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  30

  God on Trial - #1

  by Amazing in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  premise: many who have read the bible over the centuries have accepted it as authoritatively from god, and have glossed over some glaring inconsistencies, contradictions, and shear nonsense.

  some cultish groups have attempted to mimick the myths and twisted beliefs they have derived from the bible.

  jehovah's witnesses are no exception to this.. this raises the questions: if the bible (as we know it) is from god, having his stamp of authorship and approval, then can we ever at some point raise serious questions about it?

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  individual

  Amazing - God set up the institution of marriage and according to the Christian Greek scriptures a man is to have one wife. When God created Adam he created one wife, Eve, for Adam. But God overlooked the Israelites and their practice of polygamy. Now when Israelites had concubines as extra to their wives surely this is fornication? But God in the bible condemns fornication and adultery. This is another inconsistency because he allowed it to continue in Israel giving laws to protect concubines and extra wives so therefore stamping his approval on the practise. I raised this question with other JWs and the only answer I got was that He needed the Israelite seed to become many and become a large nation so in order for his purpose to be completed he allowed them to have several wives and concubines. So why not instead just make the woman more productive and stick with one wife per man? Was it impossible for God to do so and make triplets and quadruplets the norm and birth easier whilst He was building His nation? Why establish rules that allow a man to have more than one wife only to have this 'unchanging' God change this law after Christ?
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  45

  what job could you have had?

  by sleepy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi i've just come home from cleaning windows.what an absolutely soul destroying job.. when i think of the things i could have done.. i remmember how my teachers in school used to tell me i would surely go to university and get a good job.i remmember the shock on one teachers face a few years after i left school when i told her i was a window cleaner.. i was also intrested in art and quite good at it.my grandfather who wasn't a witness offered to help me and my brother get good jobs in the art world.. we turned him down.. arrmegeddon was so soon.. anyone else like me ?.

  what do you do and what could you have done?

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  individual

  Hi Sleepy

  I've just come home from a days window cleaning as well and I agree that it is a soul destroying job. My IQ is between 125 and 130 on the Mensa test and I could have easily gone to university, but because of the org. I now have the same highly stimulating job as yourself...

  This to me is my biggest personal disappointment at serving the org. for the best part of 25 years. I feel that they have robbed me of vocation that would have suited my talents and I would have enjoyed.

  When I was a teenager the one career that I was interested in was climate research, I looked into this but the elders advised against it because of the university problem and also because the meteorology office in the UK is part of the National Defence (made so during the Second World War). It is my one wish in life now that at 37 years of age finally I can make this dream come true. Climate research was a career I would have done voluntarily such was my interest but the new system was always just around the corner. I get so angry at this, that they robbed me of my future and limited my choices to low paid manual labour that nobody else wants to do. And robbed me on the basis of false promises. It is equivalent to promising somebody the riches of the earth next year if they follow you and give everything else up and when next year comes they say that it has been delayed but is sure to come the following year.

  I am now putting in plans to go back to college so hopefully I can then realise my dream of a career I would actually enjoy and my wife is also likewise about to start her studies at college. I think this is more realistic than looking at pictures in the WT of nice new houses and not just ordinary houses, but palatial dwellings that we were supposed to enjoy in the new system. I've wasted enough of my life following that dream and being deceived.

  The new system is just around the corner.... the problem is - the corner has turned into a roundabout...