Hey Ashi....
great series... you went through it and were victorious, and for the most part, on your own terms... I can't tell you how rare that is in my experience... good for you.... If you live the rest of your life with that vigor and insight, you will do well...
I'm glad you shared this with all of us here... it's good to learn from other's experience.
Thank you
Inq :)
Inquiry
JoinedPosts by Inquiry
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17
Ashi's Apostasy---Part Last Formal Apostate
by ashitaka inmy future brother in law (futurebro) is a great guy, as ive mentioned.
he really cares about people, doesnt want to hurt anyones feelings.
yet, now he was trapped between doing the right thing, and possibly losing his parents.
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Inquiry
Hey Gravedancer...
IMO people act in irrational ways due to illness or ignorance... when I was a JW, I acted in what I now consider to be an irrational manner, ie: knocking on people's doors trying to convince them of something I really knew nothing about... signing that stupid blood card for nearly ten years and making that same decision for my son, etc.... because I was not aware of the facts... that kind of irrationality was due to ignorance... I have experienced the kind of irrationality due to illness... ie: a dear friend who had a serious mental illness and occasionally thought he was Jesus... Martin Luther King (he was white) and several others.... he was truly ill... but on medication he was a sweetie... I think that some normally rational people can act irrationally given certain circumstances... ie: a husband or wife discovers their mate cheating.... being lied to by people you trusted.... someone hurting your child.... all these things and more can bring out an irrational response from what are normally rational people...
In short, I do think it's possible for a rational person to decide to act irrationally...
Neat question.... I look forward to more responses...
thanks grave :)
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24
I challenge Joelbear to a DUEL
by Mindchild inmindchild vs. joelbear.
aka skipper aka joel.
in the view of jurors of the grand jury of participants of simons board, within the website of jehovahswitnesses.com, hereby one mindchild summons one joelbear, on or about, henceforth, the date of this post, to a duel of competing paradigms.
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Inquiry
hey Joel... I know this is a bit off of the posted topic but I discovered someone by watching Man Alive... it's a canadian program that I sometimes watch... the last one interviewed an Episcopalian Bishop named John Shelby Spong.... He broke with contemporary church doctrine and has written many books about his research and his view of the bible... I was intrigued.. for my part I am much more agnostic now, especially considering my personal WT experience, but I found what he had to say interesting and worth consideration.... He's written a book called "Living in Sin? : A Bishop Rethinks Human Sexuality". He's got his historical information down and his resume is very impressive... http://newark.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/spong_cv.html
Now, I am in no way espousing the Episcopalian church... I don't do churches anymore, or organized religion ... but I try to keep an open mind...
I thought this might be helpful to you... I am worried that in trying to satisfy your spiritual needs that you don't consider your own personal circumstances... I don't know how you can be a homosexual and have your spiritual needs accomodated by the WT.... the two are not compatible in any way and this move could prove to be so very detrimental to you.... Your an intelligent and caring individual and I hope that you don't find this post offensive... it's just a suggestion.... please tell me what you think of it....
I hope all is well with you...
take care
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29
Reading C of C
by startingover ini read crisis of conscience some time ago and it had a profound effect on me.
i just gave it to my ex-bethelite friend to read (he had already discovered the "truth" about the truth on his own).
he's about halfway through it and is in the anger stage.
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Inquiry
hey kitty (fred)*pets the kitty* Don't bite now, bad kitty....:)
glad you read C of C fred... even though the materials used in his book are what you and many others claim to be copywrited, much of it Ray Franz himself was involved in producing.... so much for copywrite...(why is it that when people hear the word copywrite they think that it makes the material inadmissable as evidence...?????) it doesn't detract one iota from what Franz was trying to convey... The WT is just a company run by company men who are selling the product of everlasting life in a paradise earth for the paltry price of your time, your money and your freedom, and in some cases your sanity.... His expose on how the org works compared with how the rank and file view the org is at the very least intriguing... I read C of C and was very glad I did.... I learned a very important lesson, but not after wasting 10 years of my life in the useless persuit of working for the WT gratis... not to mention what my son went through...
I am more than happy to be free from the snares of the WT grey suits... and so is my son... I found Ray's books to be a treasure... and I am glad I found them...
*pets the kitty* now that's a good cat.... :)
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25
PET OWNERS! New BAN from the Watchtower?!
by Focus in[for the full articles that were posted here, please now see:.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=18803.
thank you, brothers (sisters even)].
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well, you really had me going there... roflmao....
I owe you a spankin focus....lolThanks for the giggles
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24
Suicide and This and That .....
by Celtic inhow many of you have really gone through suicidal feelings, when you felt that no-one at all was out there to try to assist you?
did it help you to be told by so called friends, 'just pull your socks up!
' did you feel that such admonition was really daft and stupidly uncaring?
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Hey Celtic...
well, what a coincidence.. I've spent the last week dealing with a young girl who tried to harm herself.... She's been thinking of killing herself since she was in grade 7. The poor girl has had some really hard knocks and it seemed to her to be the only solution. It was really hard for her to come to tell me what she had done but one of her friends got her to me so I could help. I'm glad we got her the help she needed in time... it could have been so much worse... I do deal with several younger kids, 15-25, some of whom have dealt with feelings of suicide... I have an environment at home where the kids, mostly my son's friends, can tell me absolutely anything and I won't judge them or yell at them... I just listen, and that's what they, for the most part, want/need ... every once in a while, someone turns up really needing help, and I'm glad the kids think they can come to me...
I've learned from an early age (a friend of mine committed suicide when I was 15) never to ignore any threat of suicide, especially online as there is less information to go on... you can't see the face of the individual and you can't read in their comments everything that is going on. It's important to offer support, talk it through with them and to offer contact when possible and to try to find out where that person is....
I wasn't online when kevin was dealing with his difficulties... I hope he got or gets the help he really needs... it's such a dark place to be, and from what I can get, he was quite isolated... he was reaching out for help and he came here. It's a testament to this online community that he could reach out here...
I hope this little experience helps Celtic... we all deal with the dark inside of us at sometime, some of us have a larger darkness to deal with. I feel it is simple human decency to help out where able and to at least do the best you can. I have found a few wonderful people here who are likewise and am comforted by that.
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17
intro/ brief vent
by Axelspeed inhello..new to the board, though i have lurked for a while.
this is surprising because just a few months ago it would have been unthinkable.
if some even thought that i hinted in this direction, ....i dont even want to try and explain the repercussions.
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Inquiry
Hey Axelspeed...
Welcome to the board!!!
I read your touching post and remembered what a conundrum it is to be at the beginning of this thing. The thing is the inevitable exit. It feels like such a puzzle and the mind races trying to sort it out and trying not to make yet another mistake...
If it helps... it does get clearer... time works it's wonders and things do get sorted out... You seem pretty clear on the problems and how they make you feel and you see the results all around you... and yes, the affection for your fellow jw's is important... helping them is important..
One thing I had to come to grips with was do I continue being unhappy and unfulfilled helping my friends, or do I get happy and fulfilled and then help them when they don't want to listen... Both are hard roads, both come with sacrifice and reward... It's up to you how to proceed from this point...
From my personal experience exiting... those that are ready to hear will listen, those that aren't won't, no matter what you do....family, friends included....so staying miserable doesn't really make sense, moving forward does... there is no comfort like living with integrity, your own that is, not some copy from an organization that has lost sight of the value of personal integrity... it can't be dictated to you, you have to learn to live it, as it comes, day by day, lesson by lesson... life is a great teacher too.
I have been out for over 4 years now... and I must say, the experience, though difficult has been very rewarding... to be able to make up my own mind about my "faith" and what is important to me empowers me, makes me strong... to search out information and find out the things I want to know about is also great, it's a journey and one I wouldn't turn my back on... I've learned so much about religion and faith, the real world around me and more importantly, about myself, and found there is so much more to learn... I've discovered myself, learned some of my strengths and exposed some of my weaknesses... but I am free to do it without the constraints of WT conformity on me, or any other religious constraints for that matter... and I must say, I prefer it this way.
Sometimes you have to let go of something to get something... and this may be what you are dealing with right now. It's not easy, either road isn't easy, but in the next few days, the next few weeks and months your thoughts will clear more and you will know more about what you want to do and how you will do it... For me, it was very stressful at first, but in the end I couldn't deny that I was living a lie....the WT lie and I couldn't do it anymore.... losing friends and being outcast didn't weigh as highly in the balance as not living true to myself... Likewise, you will make your decisions... the consequences will follow as they naturally do and you will have to deal with them....
It won't be easy, but you will have friends, people who know what your going through, right here on this board.
Your welcome to email me, mine is open... and your in great company here... so many here have been through similar situations... they have been a help to me and I'm sure they will be of help to you...
Remember to take care of yourself, emotionally and physically... take your time... you don't need to rush...
I wish you the best...a new friend...
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9
A Blast From My Past!
by Farkel infreepeace sent me some photos of our old neighborhood.
i haven't yet asked him when they were taken, but from the clothing and hair styles, i would guess early-mid 1960's.. .
this is a picture of the kh i attended as a lad.
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Inquiry
Hey Farkel....
neat pics... I was a mere babe at the time... many halls still look like that today... the one near me bears close resemblance... on the inside that is... funny, the clothes do to :) ... now I'm just being cheeky....
Thanks for posting the pics... I enjoyed seeing them.Inq
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9
Speaking of Holes
by wonderwoman77 inwell i posted the post about holes in bottles when dealing with relationships.
well my mother must have known i was talking about her.
i have not talked to her since sept. 11, and that was becaue i called her because i was upset and really wanted family to be there, but she was just yelling at me for not stopping to see her the week before.
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Inquiry
Hey WW
Yep, you've had your share.... it's a rough, very tough road... sorry it's like that for you.... I know where your coming from too... your a real sweetheart you know... doing all that for your mom... I'm giving you a huge cyber hug ((((((((((((((((((((((wonderwoman77)))))))))))))))))))))))))) !!!!!! :) You chose your name on this board aptly.... a wonder woman 77 times over... I feel for you and your mom.... she must be so lost and unhappy.... and you sound like you've run the gambit from frustration to knowing your limits.... That's one of the hardest things in life, how do you support Mom without buying into her game plan....
I didn't want to sound critical, I just know what the other side of it feels like... and I don't wish it on anyone... but there is truly only so much a person can do, and it sounds like you have done it. The rest is really up to your Mom... some people can get help and achieve a good balance in their lives, Some just can't. My Mom tried, and was unable to keep facing it... She slid back into her usual role and never revisitied healing again.... Fortunately for her, she had a fellow who loved her dearly and let her live her way.... I am so grateful for that.... I feel bad that you don't have that comfort...When I think back on my relationship with my Mom, I wonder if there was any way out of the situation without regret.... when they're gone, it sticks with you... you can deal, but you always feel sad about it.... I guess it's the nature of the parent/child relationship, in it's disfunctional form.....
I was an abused woman too... I was with someone who was quite cruel and violent... love for my son and an intolerable despair got me to leave that situation... I was very young at the time and knew that I couldn't live like that for long... I took it for a year and then I set about doing what I needed to, to never become involved with someone like that again... Research and therapy.... it was my ticket... Your Mom's claim that without this man she has no identity is a very lucid thought considering her circumstances... but if she won't go get the help she needs, it's really out of your hands beyond that...
I send my best wishes, and hope for your mom.... take very good care of yourself WW...
Thanks for sharing this personal and painful issue in your life... You're courageous, that's for sure... and your handling yourself top notch... My email is open if you ever want to write to me...Your friend in cyber space....
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9
Speaking of Holes
by wonderwoman77 inwell i posted the post about holes in bottles when dealing with relationships.
well my mother must have known i was talking about her.
i have not talked to her since sept. 11, and that was becaue i called her because i was upset and really wanted family to be there, but she was just yelling at me for not stopping to see her the week before.
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Inquiry
Hey Steph aka WW....
I too had a rough relationship with my Mom... She had sooo many problems, and in hindsight she just didn't get the push she needed to go get help for herself... I used to hate my mom and feel guilty for hating her.. What I realize now is that I hated how she acted. My Mom acted the way she did for reasons... she was a very insecure woman, had never led the life that she wanted, she always seemed to settle for second best, and she really hated that... she never learned to cope with her real problems and other problems set in because of that... she drank, a lot, she took many different kinds of medication... and she was sooo depressed.... After she died I found out about some of the things that had happened to her, she had never told her kids.... her mother died in my mothers tender years... apparently it was a terrible death, her father had an affair while the mother was sick and one week after she died he moved in with his lover....and took every belonging of grandma's with him.... he basically abandoned my mother.... my mother married at 16 to a terrible man, he walked out on her and her young son.... somewhere in my mother's history, someone abused her sexually... it affected her whole perception of herself... and she was unable to make herself happy....
All this and so much more... she had a miserable life, and was miserable almost every day of her life, she even tried therapy, but it was too hard for her to face those realities, and that she may have been part of the problem.... Mom couldn't handle that...
During all of this she had four kids... and I can tell you it was tough for us... but unfortunately too late for my mom and I, the information came too late..., but I can understand where my mom was coming from... I knew she was in pain and people in pain lash out.... it wasn't that she meant to, it was just what she knew to do... she had no other skills in the matter... unfortunately, she died before we could really make peace, but there was one moment, one tiny occurence, a phone call when she was in the middle of therapy, and she apologized for everything... told me she really did love me... and that I wasn't as bad as she always let on.... it was the only lucid moment I had with her, it lasted an hour, just one, and then everything went back to "normal". My mother passed away a few years back, and that moment comforts me to this day...
My point is, you won't be able to change your mother's attitude... only she can do that... and not having a relationship with her will only end up making you feel bad... I know that you feel you have good reason for the way you react to her... and in many ways you do... but I can tell you from experience that the challenge and the reward comes when you try to understand why your mom is the way she is... it's too late to find it out when she's gone... now that I know what I know about my mom, I wish I could ask her about them... let her know I understand a few more things now... and offer the opportunity for a better relationship... but I can't do that now... and it leaves a void no matter what my excuses at the time for not persuing it...
I normally don't go around walking around in my underwear like this...:D but I thought another perspective may help you out...
I wish you well in these endeavors, it is one of the most challenging lessons in life... dealing with our parents.... but they have taught us good lessons, even if learning them was painful.... My mom had lots of problems, she worked from a deficit of skills and experience in her own life about how to be a good parent... and I spent a lot of time blaming her for it. In the end I wish things were different, not so much about her, but how I handled it.... I still miss her....Hope this helps
Inq :)