Posts by simon17

1495

An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff in

estimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.

that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.

still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.

simon17

In my opinion its better to ask this question with things are that independent of human choices and action. Diseases, natural disasters, cancer, etc.

Any argument will boil down to "we just don't understand God's more perfect plan from our perspective right now." In fact there are many debates that would boil down to this.

And the whole mess of religion/god/etc is necessary because, basically, science's argument on the origin of life & the universe is "We just don't understand how that happened from our perspective right now."

35

A Sneaky Way To Mess With Watchtower Statistics

by DT in

jw
friends

the watchtower society is addicted to numbers and growth.

the problem is that their very existence is justified by a preaching work that is intended to result in growth.

other religions don't have that kind of pressure.

simon17

What are a few dozen (or hey, optimistically a few hundred) time reports going to do? When you're on the scale of a billion hours, adding or subtracting a few thousand is meaningless. I think it would be suspicious if you started putting in time reports of 75,430 hours a month but thats what you'd basically need to do with the few people on here that would actaully do it it.

Nice idea but, no dice I"m afraid.

233

Does the Issue of Universal Sovereignty make sense to you as an explanation for evil?

by gubberningbody in

jw
friends

it used to for me, and now it doesn't.. i'm not sure how i was able to accept that argument now that i don't, but perhaps it was connected with my increasing compassion for people and their personal suffering as i've grown older.. now it seems like a sick excuse.

more like a bar-bet with satan and all of creation suffers.. i read paul's words and he has no rejoiner except to say in effect "sucks to be a vessel of wrath...glad i'm not one, but who are you to complain anyway, huh?

who's bigger, smarter and more powerful than you, you, you complaining vessel of wrath, you.

simon17

I concluded that God did, in fact, care, but only about himself and his agenda. Anyone and everyone else was expendable. He was interested only in his private war with the Devil and using whatever was necessary to fight him.

Except thats where it doesn't work on another level. If god truly was only worried about his personal situation and his agenda, he supposedly could have effortlessly wiped out the devil and all else who opposed him. In fact, any letting the devil hang around all these millenia is only complicating what he could have done in seconds. So you're left with these two alternatives if you accept hte biblical account so far: either God somehow is using this whole crazy experiment to help out humans/other creatures OOOOR God is just blatantly messing with people cruelly.

After my awakening, it became clear that God had intervened to make sure man couldn't rule himself, which negated the entire concept. He disrupted man's language at Babel because he was concerned, maybe even afraid, of what humanity could accomplish as a united entity. But the issue of sovereignty by its very nature demands that he not interfere in any way.

This is exactly right. The entire concept of the legit 'test' is a major farce.

22

JWs in the UK diferrent to USA or elsewhere?

by punkofnice in

i am in the uk.. i have an ex-jw relative in the usa.

he says that having lived ib both the uk and the usa that the jws are different from the uk to the usa.. how true could this be?.

at least int he area i grew up the term 'mother' for the organization is not familiar to me.

simon17

Some of these things are just cultural. The 4-door thing is probably because tiny compact cars are the norm in England (due to much higher gas prices and more congestion), so maybe that is not emphasized much. In the U.S.A, the cars are much bigger on average so it is very common for people to have 4-door spacious cars taht are considered an unnecessary "luxury" almost in England. therefore it is seen as selfish almost to get a 2-door car and restrict your access for the ministry. Although with the traffic in Cali and gas prices everywhere, we might be heading for smaller cars being the norm here too!

24

For those still "in" the W.T , a Moral Question.

by wobble in

jw
friends

for those who are still in the jw/wt religion for whatever reason , and to whatever extent, i ask :.

how high would you rate your moral standards ?.

where do you stand on telling lies, upholding truth, deceiving others etc ?.

simon17

What bugs me is, does my mere presence at meetings, service etc. actually encourage others on the fence to stay in. I mean, for many years I would think to myself, "This doesnt make any sense, but Brother AttendedCollege digs it and he's smart so what's wrong with me?"

Of course it does. That is what the organization is all about. Its about control in order to undermine or eliminate feelings of cognitive dissonance. Thats why people "leaving" is such a jarring thing with such jarring doctrinal practices. If someone leaves, it does not compute with their world-view of absolute truth and how a 'good' person could reject the group-think truth. Either people can accept that rational people will come to various conclusions about thigns like God, the Bible, 1914, and whether or not pant suits are socially acceptable (which completely begins to undermine the comforting group dynamic that is reinforced by ones entire association remaining faithful to the group world-view) OR people can eliminate what is causing that cognitive dissonance. How do they do that? The ostracize and shun those with the different world view. This allows for a rationalization ("this person just wants to live immorally; this person allowed Satan to take over their heart") and the shunning allows for that view to persist uninhibited.

So, yes, by your bending to show tacit approval of the witnesses means you are, at some level, reinforcing the delicate and persistent need for group members to reafirm that they are correct by seeing everyone they associate doing it.

Of course, you can say if you chose to fully leave, they will rationalize your leaving away and it may not make any difference anyway (by the mechanisms defined above). Thats fair and what you choose is really up to you.

9

Did the U.S. Overreact to the 9/11 Attacks? Undoubtedly

by Rabbit in

jw
friends

ever wanted to know your risks of being killed by lightning or a terrorist ?

read on...and make a comment.

this oughta be interesting... did the u.s. overreact to the 9/11 attacks?

simon17

This is very misleading, mainly that is ONLY considering the loss of life from terrorism. Certainly the 9/11 attacks were NOT a major per capita killer. Howerver, what about the other effects:

* Economic value of destroyed property: these attacks brought major damage/destruction to three of the most expensive structures in the entire country. The cost of the attacks alone cost billions and billions of dollars. This was not a bus blowing up where the loss of life is comparatively high in a small state in Israel but where the cost of destroyed infastructe is minimal.

* Symbolic value of destroyed the most important landmarks and the effect on the country's psyche. Equivalently, by this argument you could say presidential assassination risks are minimal because they kill 1:300,000,000. But the symbolic and resulting implications of the TARGET are massive.

* Economic Results of Attacks: Such large scale attacks crashed the stock market, nearly bankrupt the airline indursty (or did), and contributed to widespread fear and instabilty. THe cost of future attacks could have brought down the entire system.

So no, they did not overreact (aside from the stupid foray into Iraq, but that was just Dubya being Dubya)

44

Dec 15th WT: "Be like Solomon and don't go to university / don't be like Solomon and join a sports team!"

by cedars in

thanks to 'gayle' for bringing our attention to the fact that the december 15th watchtower has now been uploaded to jw.org.

it doesn't take long to reach the first juicy bit on pages 8 and 9, this time regarding higher education:.

it would be good to ask, am i taking to heart solomons example of treasuring divine wisdom?

simon17

"extracurricular, masturbation, fornication....I knew they were very bad - never had a clue what any of it was."

Thats funny, same here. I wish I had urbandictionary.com when I was growing up because it was such a source of guilt to think I was doing some of this stuff, which I didn't even understand and didn't even really know if i was doing it or not. Crazy, crazy crazy

68

Your top 5 most irritating doctrines/practices?

by cedars in

it's clear that virtually everyone on here is infuriated by wt teachings/doctrines/practices, but i would really like to know what is of most concern to people who frequent this forum.. here is my top 5, number 1 being the most significant/infuriating:.

the disfellowshipping practice - expanded to include family members (but not parents) who are old enough to leave home.

wrecks families and creates abject fear once people find out the truth about the organization.the blood issue - another unmerciful teaching, but one that costs lives.unquestioned authority of governing body - a handful of men make life-altering decisions as representatives of a larger group of people who they never see or speak to, and yet they demand unquestioning obedience on pain of being disfellowshipped.failed prophecy - the fulfilment of huge swathes of bible prophecy, including revelation, has been attributed to the events of the early 20th century, and the actions of a small group of men.two-tier christianity - faithful and discreet slave are anointed who go to heaven to whom ransom provisions apply directly, whereas remainder, or "great crowd" stay on earth and form a sub-class, only access benefits of ransom through fds.i realise that many of these issues are inter-related, but that's roughly how i would put them.

simon17

1 - Belief in the flood. Got me going. Completely ignorant belief in this day and age. Its probably as bad as continuing to believe in a geo-centric solar system.

2- disfellowshipping and shunning. Enough said on that one.

3- Babylon destroyed in 607. Also a preponderance of evidence against this. It wouldn't even be as bad if they said they realized all the evidence was against it but they were going with their odd interpretation of scripture. To deceptively force the evidence is just insane.

4- the need to settle the "court case" of universal sovreignty. Its illogical on every level for an all-powerful, not to mention all-loving, God to solve things in the way it is purported

5- I think the trying to force the creation account to fit scientific discovery is inane, it is so clearly written in a way that is demolished by science, but then day is not really "day" and "create" is not really "create". Its really a pathetic attempt.

322

WT Nov. 1, 2011 (public) - When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed - Part 2

by AnnOMaly in

out now.. yes, yes, yessssss!

on p. 26-27 they talk about how the lunar positions on vat 4956 fit 588/7 bce!!!.

"clearly, much of the astronomical data in vat 4956 fits the year 588 b.c.e.

simon17

Rather than there being a GAP between Amel-Marduk and Neriglissar as the Watchtower suggests in footnote 10, the tablet they cite in footnote 9 actually shows a three-month OVERLAP in the documents from the reigns of Amel-Marduk and Neriglissar.

Just a note on this: I think that is what the WT was trying to say in footnote 9: that like the supposed 6 month potential overlap mentioned in the paragraph, these two kings had a tablet which suggested a potential overlap. I think I'm reading that correct.

Also wanted to say that simply wonderful work on this, great research and dedication to showing how twisted most of this disucssion has been.

322

WT Nov. 1, 2011 (public) - When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed - Part 2

by AnnOMaly in

out now.. yes, yes, yessssss!

on p. 26-27 they talk about how the lunar positions on vat 4956 fit 588/7 bce!!!.

"clearly, much of the astronomical data in vat 4956 fits the year 588 b.c.e.

simon17

Rather than there being a GAP between Amel-Marduk and Neriglissar as the Watchtower suggests in footnote 10, the tablet they cite in footnote 9 actually shows a three-month OVERLAP in the documents from the reigns of Amel-Marduk and Neriglissar.

Just a note on this: I think that is what the WT was trying to say in footnote 9: that like the supposed 6 month potential overlap mentioned in the paragraph, these two kings had a tablet which suggested a potential overlap. I think I'm reading that correct.

Also wanted to say that simply wonderful work on this, great research and dedication to showing how twisted most of this disucssion has been.