"Unity refreshes, it is like the dew....Disagreements sometimes arise--we're imperfect, we realize!"
I'm sorry, I just couldn't help but be reminded of that song. But hey, I don't want to get involved in this one.
Posts by sd-7
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37January 15, 2010 wt
by ssn587 inanyone know where i can get a copy on line, or if one has it can they upload, pls to let me know, tks in advance..
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NWT changes translation to not pray to Jesus
by sacolton injohn 14:14new international version (1984).
the kingdom interlinear translation uses the westcott-hort text, and that's how it reads in the kit.
the kit's interlinear reads as follows: "if ever anything you should ask me in the name of me this i shall do.
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sd-7
The NWT reference Bible mentions that "ask me" in the footnote, doesn't it? I'm pretty sure I've seen that. I'm reminded of when Paul "three times entreated the Lord" to remove a thorn in his flesh. Paul connects the Lord's response to him to "the power of Christ" remaining over him, not the power of the Father/Jehovah. I guess that's subject to interpretation, though. Could go either way.
But either way, I think it's logical to follow Jesus' own example and pray to our Father in the heavens. I mean, at the same time, Jesus has the authority to act in our behalf, having been given "all authority in heaven and on earth" by the Father. This in itself suggests that it would hardly be wrong to request something from Jesus--otherwise, what's the point in him having that authority, right? If every knee in heaven and on earth bends to him, if all the angels bow down and praise him, give him honor and glory and power, I mean, if that's not someone worth talking to directly, I don't know who would be. If he's our entryway to get to the Father, it really does make sense, in a way.
But I'm teetering over the edge into a Trinity doctrine, and I'm still not convinced of that, personally. Meh.
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Fear not those who kill the body, but cannot destroy the soul (Not in the new song book)
by slimboyfat ini finally got my own copy of the new song book in english.
i notice that the lyrics in one of the songs have been changed from:.
fear not those who kill the body, but cannot destroy the soul.
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sd-7
I figure it's probably a simpler reason than that, why they changed the lyric. Just like with "From House to House", where they don't mention the possibility of a negative response from the householder anymore. The idea of being killed for this religion is something they'd probably like to keep out of the minds of the 'belongings', if possible. Suppress any negative thought.
But clearly, you make a valid point. By JW logic, if you kill the body, you already HAVE destroyed the soul, because the body is the soul. To suggest that Jesus is speaking about destroying 'future life prospects' really is to make a significant leap of logic. I guess the only thing is, how does one explain the 'proof texts' JWs use, Ps. 146:3, 4 or Eccl. 9:5-10? Well, I think one would have to counter with Jesus' illustration of the rich man and Lazarus, which JWs say is symbolic of something else. My problem with that is, why would Jesus Christ, if he believed as JWs do, use an illustration that on its face looks like a blatantly pagan and false doctrine? He offered no detailed explanation of its meaning, none that is recorded in scripture, at least. So I find that one to be another example that's diffiCULT to wriggle out of.
But you know, it's just a thought. Interesting point.
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The moment I knew it was crap....
by Brocephus inalready had doubts from the time i got pubes... but i was about 15 and we were studying the revelation "book" for the upteenth time.
i realized for every actual bible verse they qouted there was 2-3 paragraphs of conjecture, assumption, faulty logic and just plain stupidity.
that's when i began to plan my escape.
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sd-7
I don't know if there was a particular moment for me. I had little warning signs that I picked up, but I ignored them. Growing up, there was always atalk or two that made me feel like we were being trapped inside this religion. The horror stories about people who leave--I always found myself thinking rationally, "It is possible to leave this place and not be raped and beaten to death by worldly friends. You just have to have a peaceful transition, a careful one." Perhaps in my head, I was already drawing up an escape plan without even knowing it.
But certainly, in reading the Bible, it was abundantly clear to me that the original Christians probably weren't anything like Jehovah's Witnesses. Apart from the glaring absence of Jehovah's name in the New Testament while it was every other word in the Old Testament, the sense of brotherhoood, true friendship, seemed more real amongst those men, less sterile and 'organized' than amongst the JWs. How often did YOU cry when a circuit overseer said he had to leave? Dry eyes everywhere.
The Revelation book and the other similar books (Daniel, Isaiah) were always a little boring. I think the thing I might've thought about was the fact that all these talks, conventions, and books were mentioned as being in fulfillment of Bible prophecy, yet...why aren't we still studying those books, those articles? Why doesn't anyone, anywhere, have a recording or a transcript of those talks? If they were so spectacular that God predicted them 2,000 years in advance, why are they not of paramount importance?
I also had a feeling they were guessing in some of the statements they made. And certainly, seeing that when the end didn't come as expected, they just moved their dates back as necessary, that had all the markings of a charlatan. But I never consciously saw it. It was just a little whisper in the back of my mind.
The thing that did it was when the woman I loved got DF'd. Once I saw just how cold people could be, I realized something was wrong. I drove past her once, a pregnant woman sitting at the bus stop in freezing cold at night, rather than giving her a ride home, because she was DF'd. I couldn't continue to believe that God would want me to do that to someone. Even when she was reinstated, I was told to keep my distance, and it was at that point that I knew it was crap. There was no scriptural basis for that reasoning that I could see.
It just snowballed from there.
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Random, bored musings
by sd-7 inat a certain point, you just get tired of watchtower-bashing.
i kinda miss the awesomeness my life had when things were more normal.
when i didn't know about being in a cult.
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sd-7
nugget--You sure you're not a therapist? Pretty insightful stuff there. I don't know if I need to tell her she's forgiven for throwing me to the wolves--I mean, she doesn't feel she did anything wrong, and I can't rightly blame her; she acted based on the knowledge she had available to her. Using the kid as a blanket? She's got all the blanket every night! I know, you didn't mean it that way. Well, if there's some way to smooth things over with her, hope I can find it. I'm not even 30 yet, but I feel old right now, and far too old, emotionally, to have to start from scratch in some other relationship.
I do have a therapist, but wife spent up therapy money on groceries, so...couldn't go this week. Maybe 2 weeks from now.
Sylvia--I used to be a history buff back in school. I do rather miss it. Civil War history in particular was my favorite, but I do think learning more about my heritage would be wise. Perhaps you're onto something.
--sd-7
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Random, bored musings
by sd-7 inat a certain point, you just get tired of watchtower-bashing.
i kinda miss the awesomeness my life had when things were more normal.
when i didn't know about being in a cult.
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sd-7
Brocephus, I'm just going to go with one at a time on that one:
1. Find a real church of your preference and make new friends
Having a bit of trouble trusting religious establishments right now. Not interested in getting taken to the cleaners again by a different group of self-righteous sons of dishes.
2. Start drinking and hitting on loose and immoral women with out losing all your friends (your wife might leave)
Hmm...I've thought of drinking, but don't want to risk waking up next to someone with no memory of what happened. That, and I wouldn't have the courage to hit on a woman--didn't when I was single and sure as heck don't now! I happen to think my wife is pretty hot, at least, so...the prospect of eventually resuming the marital due is enough to keep hope alive a little bit longer. I'm not good with the ladies. Only other woman who paid me attention was 12 years older and an unemployed alcoholic. Sure, I've looked in all the wrong places, but...I'm scared of bars and the like, terrified. A beautiful woman overrides my logic sensors, so...I'd rather stay away from them, too.
3. Start gambling
Dude. I am debt up to my eyeballs. Not happenin'.
4. Get into politics
Look, since I can't see Russia from my house, I don't think I've got a real shot in that line of work. Besides, they've already got one black man in the business. They've got a quota for that, you know.
5. Volunteer and do charity work
Not a bad idea. But I've no time or energy for that. Barely got the money to pay other people to do charity work in my place. But it's something I'll definitely think about.
6. Learn to play an instrument and join a cover band and play some shows downtown.
I don't know about that one. It just feels like a Spider-Man 3 kind of thing to do. And that didn't turn out well for Tobey Maguire. It would be nice, though. But again, time, energy, etc...
7. Catch up on rated R movies.
Well, after seeing "Watchmen", I don't think I can deal with R-rated movies anymore. Just too disturbing for me. Too much cursing. Besides, can't watch that with the wife and kid there all the time. It'd be a bad influence.
8. Masturbate guilt free (with or without porn)
Again, wife & kid are there. Not so simple. I admit, though, if they're not there, sometimes...I've been known to take some self-liberties. But being married, I don't feel right about porn anyway. (Besides, my wife provides me with occasional doses when she walks around in her underwear or comes out of the shower. If only she would grant me a private photo shoot, we'd be set...)
9. Discovery your bi-sexuality (please use condoms)
Good Lord, no! I don't have nothin' else to add to that. I like women, women, and more women, okay? Ewwwwww...
10. Wish your kids a happy birthday.
The only kid around was born into a cult. Ain't nothin' happy about that, trust me, I know. But um...I guess every year if she gets smarter and more creative, maybe there's hope. Still...never been into birthdays, probably never will be. Rather just spoil the kid all year round, if possible.
11. Make career desicions based on what you want to do with your life and for your family, not how many hours of field service you can give.
I never really had that problem, as I always hated field service. Never made my decisions based on that crap. So...it works out.
Thank you.
--sd-7
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Random, bored musings
by sd-7 inat a certain point, you just get tired of watchtower-bashing.
i kinda miss the awesomeness my life had when things were more normal.
when i didn't know about being in a cult.
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sd-7
Very insightful, dgp. Thanks, Sylvia (for helping a brotha' out, and for recognizing that in this case, Toby cannot "be good [slave] for massa"). Palmtree67--if you do find that magic wand, hope you'll let me know.
I want to undo it all. But the evidence just proves to be an avalanche. I can't ignore it, no matter how hard I'd like to try. I'll just have to face up to the facts, you know?
Thank you all, again.
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Feel the Love ? ... continued
by AK - Jeff innov 15, 1952 watchtower pp.703-704 questions from readers .
questions from readers.
in the case of where a father or mother or son or daughter is disfellowshiped, how should such person be treated by members of the family in their family relationship?p.c., ontario, canada.. we are not living today among theocratic nations where such members of our fleshly family relationship could be exterminated for apostasy from god and his theocratic organization, as was possible and was ordered in the nation of israel in the wilderness of sinai and in the land of palestine.
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sd-7
This is that infamous article everyone loves to point to. I don't know whether or not mind-altering drugs were being used by the Writing Committee in the 50s, but this is probably the single most bizarre article since the pyramid was in style.
The pattern of unstable ideas and twisted human relationships remains to this day, of course. This is why people are being persecuted and labeled as 'extremists'. Any person upon reading this would never join up with a group that condones such thinking--save maybe the extremist type who just got disillusioned with actually killing people and just preferred to shun them instead.
The first thought of the true Christian religion is that of murdering someone who does not share your beliefs. That's the first thought, and THEN, 'oh, right--the laws say we shouldn't kill people'. What if there were no law in your country to forbid killing 'apostates'? Would the law of Christ be enough to hold you back? I wonder.
As I said to an elder in my committee, not everyone would actually kill if the Society told them to. But a lot of people would, absolutely. THERE is the love, indeed.
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Random, bored musings
by sd-7 inat a certain point, you just get tired of watchtower-bashing.
i kinda miss the awesomeness my life had when things were more normal.
when i didn't know about being in a cult.
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sd-7
At a certain point, you just get tired of Watchtower-bashing. I kinda miss the awesomeness my life had when things were more normal. When I didn't know about being in a cult. I could sit there at home and watch movies to my heart's content, and nobody in particular harassed me so long as I made 6-10 hours a month--except the Thought Police checking up on me to see if I'd stopped looking at porn. Which I hadn't.
Now, it's like...all of that normalcy is gone. It was a twisted kind of normal, but...at least...I don't know. Now, I'm married, broke as a joke, and can't do anything beyond go to sleep once I get home from work. Can barely afford to rent movies, much less buy 'em. I miss that.
Now that I'm out, what now? I don't know how to enjoy life. My wife...it's so hard to hang in there with her. She believes in it. It's hard to even listen to her about mundane things because I'm so fixated on and disturbed by having spent my whole life in a cult. It still seems so impossible. How could it happen to me?
I did think of starting a ministry of my own, maybe hitting up YouTube or something, maybe trying to team up with the 4Jehovah.org ministry team--except I don't accept all their ideas, so...probably can't happen. I'm overwhelmed with a wife and kid who both refuse to just sit still and chill out. I can't seem to concentrate. My wife tells me 5 different things and I can never remember them or it just doesn't register. I ended up late for work because she told me to take her somewhere before work and I had no memory at all of her saying that, I mean none. What's wrong with me? Do I not care? Am I so distracted by being here or by realizing I'm in a cult that I literally can't think about anything else?
I don't want to be self-centered. I'm just...exhausted all the time, unable to give my family the quality time they deserve. I'm bored with this job and the commute is way too long. But I don't know if it's a good idea to look for anything else in these uncertain times. A bird in the hand, they say?
I think I'm having a bit of Stockholm syndrome. I could choose to appeal the elders' decision if I do it by Sunday. But how the heck could I demonstrate repentance? I'd have to acknowledge the 'faithful slave class' and that the JWs are 'God's organization'. But my logic circuits went mad trying to go along with this cancerous thinking. I couldn't recruit people into this. The moral responsibility involved in that is staggering. It would be very wrong for me to go back, even for family. Family doesn't know yet, most of them. Don't know how to tell them.
Wondering if it's the only way I'll get to have intimacy with my wife again. It's been almost a month since the last marital due, and...we've not been married that long (almost 4 months). Now the kid's in bed with us these days. My wife doesn't even want me to touch her anymore. I'm usually bowled over with surprise if she gives me a hug. I'm supposed to talk to her about my need for affection from her, and maybe...I haven't done much for her needs apart from being the sole provider and a father-figure to the kid. But maybe I'm not much of a real husband. I come home so tired that I can barely eat dinner. I keep forgetting stuff she tells me or it's like I don't remember her telling me about it at all. I want to listen to her. I want to.
Is there an unconscious part of me that's ignoring her because she's the one who turned me in, set me up for being expelled? I don't know if I still have resentment over that betrayal. I know she didn't see it as a betrayal, and never will. ...
What I find particularly sad is those moments in the day when I daydream about the love we used to share, used to make together. I'm fantasizing about my own wife, as if she's the unattainable girl I fell for in high school.
I wanted to take her to see the orchids that are on display. Or to that restaurant we never got to go to for our 'honeymoon', which consisted mostly of shopping for necessary household items and one meal at a Chinese restaurant.
I'm asking for a lot of advice, aren't I? I shouldn't be. I'm just feeling a little down today, remembering...how the men I most respected in my life now treat me as a non-person. Perhaps I only feared them. But brothers don't fear each other. Not in a normal relationship. Only in an abusive one.
Was it really a cult? Why did they make up all this stuff? Nobody's really getting rich off of it. Is it just a power thing? Or just something that people inherited from the original power-mongers?
I messed up my life so badly. I hope my wife leaves me someday. I didn't deserve to get her back. I wasn't up to the challenge.
I was supposed to stay morally clean to make this stand, not be put on trial for the very things I vowed I would never do in life. All those tears my wife cried, she cried because of me, because I didn't treat her as a sister with chasteness. What right do I have to criticize corruption in this religion when I'm no less dirty than they are?
I'm no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't think I ever really earned the title anyway. It was my mother's religion, and I just went along with it.
I can't even say goodbye to my family because I don't know how. No matter what, I'll always be the villain. I deserve to be alone. It doesn't matter if those people think I'm unhappy or not. I was unhappy amongst them, and I'm still unhappy. The only thing that's changed is my religious affiliation.
There's nothing left for them to take because it doesn't matter what they take. I wasn't a friend to anyone on the inside. And probably only a rare few were genuinely friends with me. The only one I know of who fits firmly into that category is dead now. He died never knowing what was really going on, in fact died as a zealous proclaimer of the Society's version of the good news.
I can't help wondering if this knowledge was worth its price. I may never produce an heir to it, with my wife. She will never allow me to teach her daughter, and any other children we might have, she would claim as belonging to her, and to the religion. My knowledge, the years of struggles to reach this point--all of that will die with me. Rendered irrelevant in the stream of time, just another speck of lint on its immense fabric.
For that it matters, I might as well have believed it. Because none of what we do here really matters. All the good, it's just a band-aid on a cancer. ...
I'm sorry. Just feeling a little depressed today. No point in it. You folks, and many others, have real problems. You all take care.
--SD-7
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How do they justify not having normal human interaction with non-believers?
by dgp inhow does the society justify not allowing its members to have normal relationships with non-jws?
if i were to argue that this smells of the way other religions, such as moslems or moonies act with respect to non-members, what do you think would be the way to rationalize it?.
thank you in advance.
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sd-7
They would simply assert that the stance is perfectly scriptural. 1 Cor. 15:33, James 4:4, 2 Cor. 6:14-18, and so on. They could point to the Israelites being told not to form covenants or alliances with the surrounding nations. "Normal" is a word that exists only in quotes for the Society. Human interaction with non-believers in the field ministry is sufficient as a demonstration of love towards one's neighbor. There might be some rare occasion where you might help a non-believer, but you wouldn't invite him or her over for dinner. That's just how it works. Everything is justifiable if you use the Bible the "right" way. Isn't it obvious?