Let's pick a park somewhere and get together for burgers and beers or whatever. Nothing formal, everybody bring themselves and their own food and drink.
Posts by JeffT
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31who is from Washington State besides
by Helen inmyself, tr, and jeff?.
btw i have met tr and he is a great person..
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7
Gain???
by tattoogrl333 ini've asked a few people this, but what do the jw have to gain by luring people into their religion?
do they take your money or posessions?
i just don't understand why people would want to do that.
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JeffT
Yes, there is a very large multilayer hierarchy above the elders.
Immediately over the elders is the circuit overseer, who is responsible for about 25 congregations, each of which he visits twice a year. A few of these are decent guys who are sincerely trying to do a good job. Most of them see their duty as beating the elders to get them to flog the publishers into putting in more hours.
Above the circuit overseers are the district overseers, above them the branch committees, and on top of it all the corporate officers and governing body.
As an example of how much power all these people think they have, in 1977 they attempted to regulate sexual conduct within marriage to the extent that certain common acts would get you disfellowshipped even if done with your spouse. They backed off of that one after a while, although I gather that it is still much talked about.
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44
Wrong date
by tattoogrl333 inhello i'm new to the whole jw study thing, but they said it fell in 607 but due to the advice of others here i looked it up.
i found in 3 encyclopedia's online that it fell in 586. i printed them out and am going to get more.
i'm going to show the lady i study with, i'm just curious what you think will happen, and if she will try to deny it.
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JeffT
Tattoogrl333:
Shunning, harsh elders and some of the other things you mention are not the reasons why you should not become a JW.
The reason you should not become a witness is because they do NOT teach the Bible correctly. Their method of interpretation is seriously flawed. They do not take into consideration the writer of any particular book of the Bible, his audience, or the historical context. They also lift verses out of their context so they can make them say what they want them to. This is intellectually and religiously dishonest.
By the way, my letter is still available if you want it.
Jeff Thomas
[email protected] -
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Wrong date
by tattoogrl333 inhello i'm new to the whole jw study thing, but they said it fell in 607 but due to the advice of others here i looked it up.
i found in 3 encyclopedia's online that it fell in 586. i printed them out and am going to get more.
i'm going to show the lady i study with, i'm just curious what you think will happen, and if she will try to deny it.
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JeffT
The original calculation was done by a catholic monk about 500 years ago. I don't have more source book with me, but I will look when I get home. Russell (the founder of the JW's) got all of his chronological stuff from other sources. 1914 is the only one still in use.
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Mass 'coming out': Revealing Our Identities
by philo inon a the exmormon board i started a topic about fear of the organisation (link below).
'stumped' put up this idea.... in america, founded on freedom, folks are afraid to discuss their church.
it's loterally scary.. anybody wanna take a challenge tostate their name, address, phone number.
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JeffT
My full name is Jeffrey A. Thomas. I live in Carnation, WA. I think the WTS got a pretty good idea of where I stood on March 18, 1989 when my wife and I sent them a thirty page letter explaining why we were no longer witnesses. A copy went to our local congregation and had our name and address on it. (We have since moved.)
Special message to anybody who thinks he's going to send the elders after me: I will happily and peacefully engage in any upbuilding spiritual discussion. I will even be happy to discuss our disagreements, so long as it is done in a spirit of agreeing to disagree. I have not committed any act of immorality, and I have not left the Christian faith. We are members in good standing at our church, one of the largest non-denominational churches in the state of Washington. However if you wish to threaten me, be advised; I have a shotgun, a shovel and nine acres of vacant land.
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Do Majority of exJWs remain Christians?
by Ray Skyhorse indo the majority of exjws retain a christian faith after leaving the borg?
does the majority of exjws continue studying the bible on their own or join a new christian group that's less rigid than the jws?
or does the majority say to hell with christianity?.
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JeffT
I became a Christian a year before I became a dub. Had I done some research first, I would have realized I was going up a blind alley. When my wife and I left our principal complaint was the the Watchtower distorts the Bible and Christianity. We now attend a non-denominational Christian church, but our believes our what we determine for ourselves, not what is spoon fed to us by some one else.
I think our pastors would die if they thought somebody was leaving the church on Sunday morning saying to themselves "Well, I don't agree with what he said, but I have to believe it."
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Can't decide if this is pathetic or funny.
by JeffT ingot an e-mail from a friend.
he's been invited to speak to a group in romania that calls itself "the true jehovah's witnesses.
" seems that they were underground for a long time and not in regular communication with brooklyn.
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JeffT
Got an e-mail from a friend. He's been invited to speak to a group in Romania that calls itself "The True Jehovah's Witnesses." Seems that they were underground for a long time and not in regular communication with Brooklyn. When they were able to regain communication they decided that the GB had changed so much stuff they must have gone apostate!
So 5000 or so broke away and started their own religion.
Seems to be a good commentary on how much stuff gets changed.
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42
Studying
by tattoogrl333 ini flat out asked the jw i'm studying with what she would do if someone was disfellowshipped and she was honest and said she wouldn't talk to them since they wouldn't be good examples of jehovah witness.
then we started talking about appearances and tattoos, and about my pink hair :) and she said it didn't matter.
i am enjoying reading and visiting this web site but i am just not seeing the same things you guys have.
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JeffT
I became a Witness in 1973, the year I graduated from college. They are very very good at not letting you see the stuff that is being talked about here, until after you are to far in to think straight about it.
I was eventually told in no uncertain terms that I could not have a beard, but this didn't come up right away. I'll bet that at some point you will be told that the pink hair must go.
Don't take what they say at face value. They are dead wrong on their understanding of many parts of the Bible. They have made many wrong predictions in the past.
Here is a test: email me at [email protected] and I'll send you the letter I sent the WTS when I left. It consists almost entirely of quotes from Watcthower publications. Show it to the person you're studying with and see what reaction you get.
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The Last Days in the 14th Century
by JanH inthe last days in the 14th century .
all through recorded history there have been people who have pointed to the calamities, horrors and disasters in the world, and preached that this signified an imminent end of the world.
this isnt even unique to christianity, which started off with strong millennial expectations in the 1st century, and for the most part retains the same expectations almost 2000 years later.
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JeffT
The problem is in looking at what Jesus intended to say.
More and more Bible scholars are looking at the verses in Matt. 24 not as a sign of the end, but as a warning NOT to be looking for signs of the end.
A Bible translation called the message puts it very well: (this is a paraphrase, I don't have it in front of me) "Don't be alarmed, this is just routine history."
He then follows that with the statement that his coming would be obvious to everyone.
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Where were you in 1975?
by dins ini have a vivid memory of 1975 even though i was only 6 years old.
i remember the whispers and the fervor surrounding the year.
i even had an uncle who marked his calendar every day with big red xs proclaiming that he couldn't wait for "this evil system of things to end.".
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JeffT
I was baptized in the fall of 1973, the year I graduated from college. I had started an informal study the year before with a friend who had become a witness. That spring and summer I did the usual routine; formal study, commenting a meetings, going out in service etc. I was living in Pullman, a small, isolated college community in Eastern Washington. The congregation there was a very close knit group, and I thought I was hooking up with a group of real Christians. (In the spring of 1972 I had become a Christian, but had little actual knowledge of the Bible.)
The sense of the approaching end of the world permeated witness culture at the time. There was also an emphasis on how successfully the WTS had interpreted Bible prophecy. Here are a few representative quotes:
“When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.” Deuteronomy 18:22
“Consider too, the fact that Jehovah’s organization alone, in all the Earth, is directed by God’s Holy Spirit or active force. Only God by His Holy Spirit could have revealed this to those early Bible Students so far in advance.” WT 7/1/73“Jehovah’s Witnesses today make their declaration of the good news under angelic direction and support; and since no word or work of Jehovah can fail, for He is God Almighty, the nations will see the fulfillment of what these witnesses say as directed from Heaven.” WT 4/1/72
“So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? This prophet was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as ‘International Bible Students.’ Today they are known as ‘Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses.’ Of course it is easy to say that this group acts as a Prophet of God; it is another thing to prove it. The only way this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?” “They Will Know That a Prophet Was Among Them.” WT 4/1/72
Books, Magazines, talks: all emphasized the nearness of the end. It was the dominant conversation topic around the hall. Again, a few representative quotes:
“According to this trustworthy Bible chronology six thousand years from man’s creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 CE” (Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God. Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. 1966 p 28)
“So in not many years within our own generation we are reaching what Jehovah God could view as the seventh day of man’s existence.” (Ibid.)
“How appropriate it would be for Jehovah God to make of this coming seventh period of a thousand years a sabbath period of rest and release, a great Jubilee sabbath for the proclaiming of liberty throughout the earth to all its inhabitants! This would be most timely for mankind. It would also be most fitting on God’s part, for, remember mankind has yet ahead of it what the last book of the Holy Bible speaks of as the reign of Jesus Christ over the earth for a thousand years, the millennial reign of Christ. Prophetically Jesus Christ, when on earth nineteen centuries ago, said concerning himself: ‘For Lord of the Sabbath is what the Son of Man is.’ (Matthew 12:8) It would not be by mere chance or accident but would be according to the loving purpose of Jehovah God for the reign of Jesus Christ, the ‘Lord of the Sabbath’ to run parallel with the seventh millennium of man’s existence. (Ibid. p 30)
“Hence, the fact that we are nearing the end of the first 6,000 years of man’s existence is of great significance.
“Does God’s rest day parallel the time man has been on earth since his creation? Apparently so. From the most reliable investigations of Bible chronology, harmonizing with many accepted dates of secular history, we find that Adam was created in the autumn of the year 4026 B.C.E. Some time in that same year Eve could well have been created, directly after which God’s rest day commences. In what year, then would the first 6,000 years of man’s existence and also the first 6,000 of God’s rest day come to an end? The year 1975. This is worthy of notice, particularly in view of the fact that the ‘last days’ began in 1914, and that the physical facts of our day in fulfillment of prophecy mark this as the last generation of this wicked world. So we can expect the immediate future to be filled with thrilling events for those who rest their faith in God and his promises. It means that within relatively few years we will witness the fulfillment of the remaining prophecies that have to do with the ‘time of the end’” (Awake 10/8/66 p 19,20)“The immediate future is certain to be filled with climactic events, for this old system is nearing its complete end. Within a few years at most the final parts of Bible prophecy relative to these ‘last days’ will undergo fulfillment, resulting in the liberation of surviving mankind into Christ’s glorious 1,000 year reign.” (WT 5/1/68)
“The fact that fifty-four years of the period called the ‘last days’ have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years at most remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God.” (Awake! 10/8/68 p 13)
“There is another way that helps us confirm that we are living in the final few years of this ‘time of the end.’ (Dan. 12:9) The Bible shows that we area nearing the end of a full 6,000 years of human history.” (Ibid. p 14)
“More recently earnest researchers of the Holy Bible have made a recheck of its chronology. According to their calculations the six millenniums of mankind’s life on earth would end in the mid-seventies. Thus the seventh millennium from man’s creation by Jehovah God would begin within less than ten years.
“In order for the Lord Jesus Christ to be ‘Lord of the Sabbath day’ his thousand year reign would have to be the seventh in a series of thousand year periods or millenniums. (Matt 12:8 AV) Thus it would be a sabbatic reign.” The Approaching Peace of a Thousand Years. Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1969)“So, as we draw close to the completion of six thousand years of human existence during this decade, there is a the thrilling hope that a grand Sabbath of rest and relief is in sight.” (Awake 10/8/71)
This last quote was accompanied by a chart showing seven one thousand year periods beginning with man’s creation. The date 1914 is marked near the end of the sixth period. The seventh period is labeled “Millennial reign of Jesus Christ?” If the question mark was meant to convey the idea that this was speculation it was not clear from the context.
“In view of the short period of time left, we want to do this (pioneer service) as often as circumstances permit. Just think, brothers, there are only about ninety months left before the 6000 years of man’s existence on earth is completed.” (Kingdom Ministry March 1968)
“Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world’s end.” (Kingdom Ministry May 1974)
“One thing is absolutely certain, Bible chronology reinforced with fulfilled prophecy shows that six thousand years of man’s existence will soon be up, yes, within this generation! (Matt. 24:34) This is, therefore no time to be indifferent and complacent. This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that ‘concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.’ (Matt 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. Make no mistake, it is sufficient that the Father himself knows both day and the hour.” (WT 8/15/68)
The quotes from WTS sources do not begin to demonstrate the “buzz” that was going around. Here is one personal example I remember vividly. At the big international (five days if I remember right) convention held in the summer of 1975 there was a drama about the destruction of Jericho. Special emphasis was placed on the fact that the Israelites marched around the city silently for six days. Immediately following that was a talk announcing the release of a new pamphlet. It was one of those things where everyone there knew the talk was connected to the drama. So they announced that in September we would be taking these pamphlets around and blanketing as many houses as possible, and we’d do this on every three months. No call back records or anything else would be kept.
So that night a bunch of us are sitting around talking and “sister k” says she figured out that if we did this every three months the seventh time would be in the fall of 1975. We spent the rest of the night talking about how the fact that we weren’t going to be talking was just like the Israelites being silent, and Jericho was just like the old system etc. Funny thing was fifteen years later, as we were in the process of leaving I mentioned this to “sister k.” She says “oh, nobody ever said anything like that.
In the summer of 1974 the society released the “Eternal Purpose” book. It had a longer title that escaped me at the moment. One chapter was devoted to how starting 3,000 years after Adam’s creation the light should begin to get brighter as we were half way through God’s rest day. There followed a bunch of nonsense showing how this was working. Again the clear implication pointed to 1975.
I final thought. In my opinion the WTS has never taken full responsibility for this, unless it came out after I left. If some one was speculating out of turn, as they first tried to claim, the society did nothing to counteract it. The only statements I’ve seen on the matter have been wishy-washy, and the society still insists that all witnesses follow every one of their pronouncements absolutely, all the time.