Posts by UnDisfellowshipped

The Watchtower, November 15th, 2008 Issue, Pages 20-22:
"We are "saved through faith," "not owing to works" of the Mosaic Law or of those performed as Christians. Our faith should be more than mere professed faith. (Eph. 2:8-9; John 3:16) It should move us to godly action. [...]

"Baptism is a requirement for those seeking salvation. However, baptism itself does not save us. Salvation is actually "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." The baptismal candidate must have faith that salvation is possible only because Jesus died a sacrificial death, was resurrected, and "is at God's right hand," having authority over the living and the dead."

___________________________________

Compare that newer article to this older one:

The Watchtower, August 15th, 1997, Page 7:

"Baptized Christians are saved in the eyes of God. (1 Peter 3:21) During the coming destruction of this wicked world, God will save them completely by preserving them through that tribulation.—Revelation 7:9, 14."

___________________________________

Just one more flip-flop in their teachings? Another "New Light"? The light does get brighter and brighter (then darker) then brighter (then darker) -- dagnabbit, someone needs to stop playing around with the light switch -- that lightbulb is gonna blow! lol!

27

Watchtower says "Field Service Report NOT a Major Concern!"

by UnDisfellowshipped in

jw
friends

the watchtower, june 1st, 2005 issue, pages 14-15:.

"saved, not by works alone, but by undeserved kindness" (study article).

(paragraph 1): "christians [...] realize that in jehovah's service, right motives are more important than personal accomplishments.

UnDisfellowshipped

The Watchtower, June 1st, 2005 Issue, Pages 14-15:

"Saved, Not by Works Alone, but by Undeserved Kindness" (Study Article)
(Paragraph 1): "Christians [...] realize that in Jehovah's service, right motives are more important than personal accomplishments. Anyone who is eventually given the gift of eternal life will have gained it, not by personal accomplishments, but through faith and by God's undeserved kindness. -- Luke 17:10; John 3:16."

(Paragraph 3): "Even though Paul was outstanding in performing Christian works, he recognized that his achievements were not owing to any particular abilities of his own. With modesty, he noted: "To me, a man less than the least of all holy ones, this undeserved kindness was given, that I should declare to the nations the good news about the unfathomable riches of the Christ." (Ephesians 3:8) No boastful attitude here nor holier-than-thou haughtiness. "God opposes the haughty ones, but he gives undeserved kindness to the humble ones." (James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5) Do we follow Paul's example, humbly considering ourselves to be less than the least of our brothers?"

Page 17:

(Paragraph 10): "Our sacred service is pleasing to Jehovah only when it is rendered out of love and devotion, not for the sake of elevating ourselves over others. It is therefore vital to have a balanced view of our activity in support of true worship. [...]"

(Paragraph 11): "If motive is all-important in gaining Jehovah's approval, then to what extent should we be concerned about our works of faith? As long as we perform our ministry with the right motive, is it really necessary to keep account of what we do or how much? These are reasonable questions, since we do not want to put numbers ahead of acts of faith or let having a good report become a major concern regarding our Christian activity ."

(Paragraph 12): "[...] What fine encouragement the news of these increases must have brought to the disciples. For the same reason, Jehovah's Witnesses today endeavor to keep accurate records of what is accomplished worldwide. [...]"

Pages 18-19:

(Paragraph 14): "While our field service report plays its part, helping us to maintain our zeal in preaching and to avoid slacking off, we must keep it in proper perspective. It is not to be viewed as a spiritual license or passport, determining our eligibility for everlasting life."
(Paragraph 15): "Clearly, even though works alone cannot save us, they are necessary. [...] James simply says: "As the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." -- James 2:26."

(Paragraph 16): "Important though the good works themselves may be, the motives for doing them are even more important. It is therefore wise for us to check our motives from time to time. Since no human can accurately know the motives of others, however, we must be aware of judging others. "Who are you to judge the house servant of another?" we are asked, with the obvious answer: "To his own master he stands or falls." (Romans 14:4) Jehovah, the Master of all, and his appointed Judge, Christ Jesus, will judge us, not on the basis of our works alone but also on the basis of our motives, our opportunities, our love, and our devotion. Only Jehovah and Christ Jesus can accurately judge whether we have done what Christians are admonished to do, in the words of the apostle Paul: "Do your utmost to present yourself approved to God, a workman with nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of the truth aright." -- 2 Timothy 2:15; 2 Peter 1:10; 3:14."

(Paragraph 17): "Jehovah is reasonable in what he expects of us. According to James 3:17, "The wisdom from above is," among other things, "reasonable." Would it not be the course of wisdom, as well as a true accomplishment, for us to imitate Jehovah in this regard? Thus, we should not try to set unreasonable and unreachable expectations for ourselves or for our brothers."

(Paragraph 18): "As long as we keep a balanced view of our works of faith and Jehovah's undeserved kindness, we will maintain the joy that is a distinguishing mark of true servants of Jehovah. (Isaiah 65:13, 14) We can rejoice in the blessings that Jehovah is pouring out on his people as a whole, regardless of how much we personally may be able to do. [...] Yes, we can draw comfort and encouragement from knowing that we can be saved, not by works alone, but by Jehovah's undeserved kindness!"
________________________________________________________

Interesting article, no?

What are your thoughts on this article?

It looks like the Watchtower Society is trying to shift away from their past ultra-judgmental statements about God destroying everyone who doesn't put in enough hours or attend every meeting.

61

I agree with Jehovah's Witnesses!

by UnDisfellowshipped in

i agree with jehovah's witnesses!.

(i bet reniaa will be shocked to see this thread!).

to jehovah's witnesses: i commend your zeal for god, your desire for accurate knowledge and truth of the bible, your goals of drawing close to jehovah, and following and obeying christ's teachings, and your time spent studying the bible.

UnDisfellowshipped

Here are two newer articles from The Watchtower which show that they are now claiming God judges people based on their heart condition and motives, etc.:

The Watchtower, June 1st, 2005 Issue, Pages 14-15:

"Saved, Not by Works Alone, but by Undeserved Kindness" (Study Article)
(Paragraph 1): "Christians [...] realize that in Jehovah's service, right motives are more important than personal accomplishments. Anyone who is eventually given the gift of eternal life will have gained it, not by personal accomplishments, but through faith and by God's undeserved kindness. -- Luke 17:10; John 3:16."

(Paragraph 3): "Even though Paul was outstanding in performing Christian works, he recognized that his achievements were not owing to any particular abilities of his own. With modesty, he noted: "To me, a man less than the least of all holy ones, this undeserved kindness was given, that I should declare to the nations the good news about the unfathomable riches of the Christ." (Ephesians 3:8) No boastful attitude here nor holier-than-thou haughtiness. "God opposes the haughty ones, but he gives undeserved kindness to the humble ones." (James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5) Do we follow Paul's example, humbly considering ourselves to be less than the least of our brothers?"

Page 17:

(Paragraph 10): "Our sacred service is pleasing to Jehovah only when it is rendered out of love and devotion, not for the sake of elevating ourselves over others. It is therefore vital to have a balanced view of our activity in support of true worship. [...]"

(Paragraph 11): "If motive is all-important in gaining Jehovah's approval, then to what extent should we be concerned about our works of faith? As long as we perform our ministry with the right motive, is it really necessary to keep account of what we do or how much? These are reasonable questions, since we do not want to put numbers ahead of acts of faith or let having a good report become a major concern regarding our Christian activity."

(Paragraph 12): "[...] What fine encouragement the news of these increases must have brought to the disciples. For the same reason, Jehovah's Witnesses today endeavor to keep accurate records of what is accomplished worldwide. [...]"

Pages 18-19:

(Paragraph 14): "While our field service report plays its part, helping us to maintain our zeal in preaching and to avoid slacking off, we must keep it in proper perspective. It is not to be viewed as a spiritual license or passport, determining our eligibility for everlasting life."

(Paragraph 15): "Clearly, even though works alone cannot save us, they are necessary. [...] James simply says: "As the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." -- James 2:26."

(Paragraph 16): "Important though the good works themselves may be, the motives for doing them are even more important. It is therefore wise for us to check our motives from time to time. Since no human can accurately know the motives of others, however, we must be aware of judging others. "Who are you to judge the house servant of another?" we are asked, with the obvious answer: "To his own master he stands or falls." (Romans 14:4) Jehovah, the Master of all, and his appointed Judge, Christ Jesus, will judge us, not on the basis of our works alone but also on the basis of our motives, our opportunities, our love, and our devotion. Only Jehovah and Christ Jesus can accurately judge whether we have done what Christians are admonished to do, in the words of the apostle Paul: "Do your utmost to present yourself approved to God, a workman with nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of the truth aright." -- 2 Timothy 2:15; 2 Peter 1:10; 3:14."

(Paragraph 17): "Jehovah is reasonable in what he expects of us. According to James 3:17, "The wisdom from above is," among other things, "reasonable." Would it not be the course of wisdom, as well as a true accomplishment, for us to imitate Jehovah in this regard? Thus, we should not try to set unreasonable and unreachable expectations for ourselves or for our brothers."

(Paragraph 18): "As long as we keep a balanced view of our works of faith and Jehovah's undeserved kindness, we will maintain the joy that is a distinguishing mark of true servants of Jehovah. (Isaiah 65:13, 14) We can rejoice in the blessings that Jehovah is pouring out on his people as a whole, regardless of how much we personally may be able to do. [...] Yes, we can draw comfort and encouragement from knowing that we can be saved, not by works alone, but by Jehovah's undeserved kindness!"
---------------------------------------------------

The Watchtower, November 15th, 2008 Issue, Pages 20-22:
"We are "saved through faith," "not owing to works" of the Mosaic Law or of those performed as Christians. Our faith should be more than mere professed faith. (Eph. 2:8-9; John 3:16) It should move us to godly action. [...]

"Baptism is a requirement for those seeking salvation. However, baptism itself does not save us. Salvation is actually "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." The baptismal candidate must have faith that salvation is possible only because Jesus died a sacrificial death, was resurrected, and "is at God's right hand," having authority over the living and the dead."

37

The Case for Unitarianism

by UnDisfellowshipped in

* the bible teaches that there is only one true god, only one person who is almighty god, and this one person is the father.

(see john 17:3; john 5:37, 5:44; john 8:54; isaiah 63:15-16; malachi 1:6; 1st corinthians 8:6; ephesians 4:6).

(john 5:19-20; 5:30; 8:28; 12:49).

UnDisfellowshipped

Reniaa, just a quick reply:

You said:

"then later in christendom Jesus was made into God despite his own words and holy spirit quite a bit later tagged on."

My Reply:

What do you consider "later"?

The Apostle Thomas believed Jesus was his God in 33 CE! Jesus said that all His followers should believe the same thing!

John 20:28-29 (New World Translation): In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.”

Jesus pronouned a blessing ("Happy") on all those who believe that Jesus is their Lord and God just as Thomas did (except without seeing Him).

Reniaa, do you believe that Jesus is your God, as Thomas did?

You said:

"The question always is would Jesus approve of us putting him in position of God?"

My Reply:

He blessed Thomas for that. Not only that, Jesus says that all should honor Him just as they honor The Father:

John 5:22-23 (New World Translation): For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

Reniaa, do you honor The Son just as you honor The Father? If so, how do you honor The Son in that way?

Do Jehovah's Witnesses honor The Son just as they honor The Father? How exactly do JW's obey John 5:23?

Also, in Revelation Chapter 5, The Lamb is given equal worship and honor with The Father. There is absolutely nothing given to The Father that is not also given to The Son.

I highly recommend that you read Chapter 15 of your "Revelation Grand Climax" book. It's all about how we should sing praises to Jesus and bow down to Him!

You said:

"If we diminish him by saying he is God's only begotten son firstborn of creation rather than almighty God Jehovah himself then so be it, I will take the judgement since this is what the bible taught me."

My Reply:

That is what I am hoping to keep you from. It will be terrifying experience to stand before Almighty God Jehovah and The Lamb, and to hear the Lamb say "Get away from me, I never knew you."

John 8:24 (New World Translation): Therefore I said to YOU, YOU will die in YOUR sins. For if YOU do not believe that I am [he], YOU will die in YOUR sins.”

You said:

"I was bought up with the NWT I grew up knowing God had a personal name and it was Jehovah and his son was Jesus. he wasn't some nebulous distant father figure but my real God who I could pray too by name. I often wonder if trinity would have ever happenned if more bibles had kept gods name as Jehovah or yahweh even, Almighty God having a name gives him depth and personality that trinity making God an it with 3 persons in it, that for me removes from them the chance to know god fully as a complete person in himself and his son treated him that way never asking any more than to do his Father and God's will."

My Reply:

If you research it, you will quickly find out that it is, at best, dishonest to insert the Divine Name into the New Testament (Greek Scriptures) where it does not appear in Greek, because there has never been a manuscript of the Greek New Testament found with the Divine Name in it. (aside from "Hallelujah" in Revelation)

The only small justification anyone could find would be to insert it in places where they are quoting from the Old Testament, but even then, we should render it "LORD" because the inspired writers of the New Testament chose to use the Greek word "Kyrios," and this word means "Lord."

61

I agree with Jehovah's Witnesses!

by UnDisfellowshipped in

i agree with jehovah's witnesses!.

(i bet reniaa will be shocked to see this thread!).

to jehovah's witnesses: i commend your zeal for god, your desire for accurate knowledge and truth of the bible, your goals of drawing close to jehovah, and following and obeying christ's teachings, and your time spent studying the bible.

UnDisfellowshipped

Parakeet,

You said:

"Your goal is doomed from the start. You assume dubs are capable of elevated discussions. They are not. They're braindead."

My Reply:

That's not very nice at all. I can understand if you are angry or upset with the Watchtower Society or some JW's, but please try to remember that you always "catch more flies with honey."

Plus, most of us used to be JW's just like the current JW's, and if we were able to come to our senses, then so can they.

In addition, I have known several Jehovah's Witnesses who are very, very intelligent and some that are even open-minded.

You said:
"Your second error is that dubs and anyone else can find a "common ground." They cannot. If you're not completely one of them, you're toast. Soon. Any day now."

My Reply:

I agree that this is what they have taught for decades (on and off) in their publications and at their meetings, however, in some of their very latest publications, they are shifting much more in the direction that only God and Jesus can judge anyone, and that God may choose to save people who are not Witnesses, as long as God sees something in their hearts that He likes.

37

The Case for Unitarianism

by UnDisfellowshipped in

* the bible teaches that there is only one true god, only one person who is almighty god, and this one person is the father.

(see john 17:3; john 5:37, 5:44; john 8:54; isaiah 63:15-16; malachi 1:6; 1st corinthians 8:6; ephesians 4:6).

(john 5:19-20; 5:30; 8:28; 12:49).

UnDisfellowshipped

Hi AllElse,

I apologize for the delay in responding. (It's been really hectic at work the last week getting ready for July 4th -- I work in retail as a manager at a large store)

I definitely plan on responding ASAP to your very good questions.

22

Michael Jackson is going to GEHENNA!!!!

by whathehadas in

this was stated by a over zealous pioneer to another witness in my congregation.

what a self righteous stament.

being the fact that jesus has been given the right to judge(matthew 25:31-33).

UnDisfellowshipped

Reniaa,

You said:

"I know what I would think if some joe bloggs in my street paid people to have access to their boys and slept with them. SO I hope Jehovah who can read hearts will know if michael was just damaged emotionally and needs a break and will be resurrected."

Wow, you're not even sure whether Jehovah can read Michael's heart?

And you wonder why Michael had some issues -- he was forced into singing and dancing at A VERY YOUNG AGE by his very abusive father, plus he was raised as a Jehovah's Witness by his mother, in addition to being blown off by his JW Elders who were supposed to try to help him instead of condemn him.

As far as I can tell, there is zero evidence that he ever abused any children (have you seen the latest news online where Jordan Chandler admitted that he lied about the whole thing back in 1993?)

Sharing a bed with children does sound strange, but people do that all the time without being molesters or pedophiles.

From what I have read, he remained a firm believer in Jehovah and Jesus and the resurrection hope his entire life! And yet, you are willing to almost cast him off as a weirdo.

I KNOW that my Lord Jesus (who is the same yesterday, today, and forever), who is the Righteous and Just One, the One who is Love, who has Amazing Grace and Mercy and Compassion, will judge Michael in a perfectly just and fair way.

Michael Jackson is now in the best possible hands -- the hands that took the nails for Michael and for all other people.

Jesus Christ alone will decide where Michael will spend eternity. Thank God for that.

61

I agree with Jehovah's Witnesses!

by UnDisfellowshipped in

i agree with jehovah's witnesses!.

(i bet reniaa will be shocked to see this thread!).

to jehovah's witnesses: i commend your zeal for god, your desire for accurate knowledge and truth of the bible, your goals of drawing close to jehovah, and following and obeying christ's teachings, and your time spent studying the bible.

UnDisfellowshipped

Thank you all for your replies!

Now if I can just get Reniaa or Spike to post here....

347

Are You Paul or are you Saul?

by reniaa in

jw
friends

this was the same man at different times in his life yet he changed his name because he completely changed his ideals and goals too.

both were extremely zealous, both thought they were doing gods work, both thought they were working for the greater good.. acts 8:3 (new international version)3but saul began to destroy the church.

going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.. soul thought gods work was to destroy the christians but paul.... acts 20: 19i served the lord with great humility and with tears, although i was severely tested by the plots of the jews.

UnDisfellowshipped

Pistoff,

Thank you very much for your reply. I will definitely see what they have to say, and I will get back to you after I've checked them out.

(I am one of those "rare" Christians who loves to see what scholars have to say, and loves to find the truth, no matter where the truth leads...)