I've read the Jonsson piece. I won't pretend that I understand all the detail, but he gives very sound evidence that the WTS has distorted and misrepresented the views of outside experts to push their own position. I'm intrigued by his reference to the article being written in collaboration with Rolf Furuli, from Oslo, Norway. Is he a JW too?
MrMonroe
JoinedPosts by MrMonroe
-
73
C.O. Jonsson's response to Watchtower's latest 607 articles
by wannabefree inhttp://kristenfrihet.se/vtsvar/vtsvar1.pdf.
(thanks to augustin for bringing this to our attention in another thread.
).
-
-
-
15
Criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses on WIKIPEDIA
by jakeyen inhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/criticism_of_jehovah's_witnesses.
a nice read, anyone could benefit from.
can someone update it regarding "mentally disease", maybe cedars / others can help update.
-
-
MrMonroe
The recent thread about Carol Olaf Jonsson's dissection of the Watchtower's latest defence of its 607/1914 dating argument provides very powerful proof that the WTS routinely distorts and manipulates exteral sources to reach a predetermined conclusion. Jonsson clearly shows how they simply ignore material (often from the same authorities they quote) that disproves their case.
People accept Wikipedia for what it's worth. Despite policies that aim to limit its content to verifiable information drawn from reliable pubished sources, Wikipedia offers its own caution about the veracity of material. The Watchtower, in contrast, claims that it speaks truth that is provided to it by God. And then tells outright lies.
The Wikipedia article does, incidentally, contain reference to the latest "mentally diseased" claims. See the section on shunning.
-
42
I am officially 'mentally diseased' by WBT$ standards!
by punkofnice inlast night whilst i was relaxing 2 elders came to my door to tell me i am officially da'd because of my 'actions'.
they weren't specific but i have been to church and telling others about the wbt$ scandals.. i was told they thought i was rude for ignoring their letters and not attending my jc.. my reply: 'you were the rude ones for sending me hounding letters when i specifically asked you never to contact me!'.
i got a 'hurumph' from the lead eldub.. i don't remember the whole conversation but they were annoyed i kept referring to the wbt$ as 'just a big business' but i told them they were on my property uninvited so they'd have to listen to my opinion and i don't have to listen to theirs.
-
-
MrMonroe
Well done. It sets them back when you tell them they have no authority over you. It's not something they hear a lot.
-
48
Nov.15th WT - WT Society Wants & Needs Elders- Not very High Standards
by flipper inas many of us realize- times are hard for the wt society getting men to " reach out " for an elders or ministerial servants position as young men aged ( 18-35 ) are opting out of doing that due to the pressure they are under from the wt society leaders and just that it takes up too much valuable time where men could be earning a living and helping their own families instead of a thankless magazine printing corporation.
in the article " train others to reach out " in this issue it has lots of strange, controlling, yet perplexing statements which i'm sure will confuse jw men who are considering " reaching out ".
in fact, i think this article will discourage more than encourage them from doing so.. on pg.
-
-
MrMonroe
Showing "spirituality" in this organisation has always meant two things: fully complying with the directions coming from the hierarchy and getting your hours in. I knew elders who did that trick of doing an RV before the field service group just so they could get the clock ticking. One elder told me -- back when it seemed as though becoming an MS again was a possibility -- that I just needed to find a Bible study to boost my hours so I could qualify.
It didn't matter what research I did, or the answers I gave at meetings, or how many visits I made to RVs to teach them the troof. It didn't matter about what sort of husband or father I was, or how I tried to be a decent bloke.
It was all about the numbers on the field service slip I popped in the slot at the end of each month.
-
2
Interesting development in Victoria: Is this where Govt acts on Working With Children Checks?
by MrMonroe inas has previousy been noted, steven unthank gave a commendable presentation to the victorian government's inquiry into protecting vulnerable children, pointing out that the watch tower society had refused to require jws to apply for working with children checks.. the victorian attorney-general seems to have taken particular notice of this and the attempts by religions -- notably the catholic church and jewish sects (both of which have been accused recently of shielding sex offenders) , but also presumably the jws -- to evade their responsibilities.
here's a story in today's age:.
catholic sex abuse inquiry on holdthe state government has put on hold a public inquiry into sexual abuse by catholic clergy, hoping some key questions can be addressed by another current inquiry into protecting vulnerable children.. state attorney-general robert clark has received at least five different calls in the past two months for an independent inquiry into the church's handling of abuse complaints.. a spokesman said yesterday the government would defer a decision until the report of the protecting victoria's vulnerable children inquiry, due on january 27.. he said the inquiry's chairman, philip cummins, had said that while it was not investigating child sexual abuse within religious bodies in general, it might report on three particular issues:.
-
-
MrMonroe
As has previousy been noted, Steven Unthank gave a commendable presentation to the Victorian government's Inquiry into Protecting Vulnerable Children, pointing out that the Watch Tower Society had refused to require JWs to apply for Working With Children checks.
The Victorian Attorney-General seems to have taken particular notice of this and the attempts by religions -- notably the Catholic Church and Jewish sects (both of which have been accused recently of shielding sex offenders) , but also presumably the JWs -- to evade their responsibilities. Here's a story in today's Age:
Catholic Sex Abuse Inquiry on Hold
The state government has put on hold a public inquiry into sexual abuse by Catholic clergy, hoping some key questions can be addressed by another current inquiry into protecting vulnerable children.
State Attorney-General Robert Clark has received at least five different calls in the past two months for an independent inquiry into the church's handling of abuse complaints.
A spokesman said yesterday the government would defer a decision until the report of the Protecting Victoria's Vulnerable Children Inquiry, due on January 27.
He said the inquiry's chairman, Philip Cummins, had said that while it was not investigating child sexual abuse within religious bodies in general, it might report on three particular issues:
Whether mandatory reporting of suspected child abuse should be extended to clergy and church workers.
Whether the Working with Children Act 2005 should also be extended.
Whether there were "doctrines or practices in churches or religious entities in Victoria which operate to deflect or discourage reporting child abuse to secular authorities".
The spokesman said the government would await that inquiry's findings and recommendations before deciding whether there should be any further inquiry.
The five requests of which The Age is aware in the past few week come from diverse sources:
Sydney University law professor Patrick Parkinson, a leading child protection expert, called for an inquiry into the Salesians' handling of child-sex cases.
A group of more than 30 victims called for an inquiry into the Melbourne Archdiocese's complaints system.
Lawyer Vivian Waller sought an investigation into clergy abuse in Ballarat that led to at least 26 suicides.
The Care Leavers Network of Australia requested an inquiry into abuse of wards of state in homes run by the state, church and charities.
Victorian Labor MP Anne Barker has called for an inquiry similar to the one by the Irish government.
Professor Parkinson said yesterday the decision was disappointing. "There are huge issues which need to be addressed, and the Catholic Church needs to clear the air for its own sake," he said.
"As the Irish have shown and the South Africans with their Truth and Reconciliation Commission, it's better to bring things into the open. And there's an awful lot to bring out."
Ms Waller, who is representing 35 men in a class action against the Christian Brothers, said the decision was a good start, but it was important to take a historical look back at least 30 years.
"People are still suffering today from the long-term effects of abuse and families are suffering through suicide and substance abuse."
Jim Boyle, a spokesman for the Melbourne Collective of 30 victims, said it was important to look at the three issues Mr Cummins would consider, but was nowhere near as thorough an inquiry as was needed.
"There are far more issues involved, including situations where it appears people with evidence of known crimes have been deterred from going to the police," he said.
-
9
Why a religion academic abandoned a plan for intensive study of JW doctrines
by MrMonroe inmichael gilmour, professor of engish and biblical literature at providence university college, manitoba, proposed a society of biblical literature workshop examining the watchtower society's use of scripture.
he thought they were poorly represented in deep academic analysis, particularly considering they have their own bible and are "persistent" (other people say "relentless") in their proselytizing.. in the end, he decided against it.
much of the reason is the suspicion and contempt held by jws towards "worldly" bible scholars, who, of course, may form different conclusions to those of the governing body.. james a. beverley, in his excellent book, "crtisis of allegiance," made the point that despite their claims to be bible scholars par excellence, the wts's writings or "research" are never (repeat never) cited by any other academics; none are ever persuaded by the claim that only the wts can understand the "deep things of god.".
-
-
MrMonroe
The Revelation Grand Climax review is certainly interesting, and Cadellin highlights a fascinating point in it.
The Revelation book wrote:
Revolting sexual corruption is portrayed to this day in the war-damaged Buddhist sculptures at Angkor Wat in Kampuchea and in the temples at Khajuraho, India, which show the Hindu god Vishnu surrounded by disgusting erotic scenes (RGCH 262).
The reviewer observed:
It is interesting to note that representations of sexuality are described as revolting and disgusting but depictions of violence are not, if dozens of graphic pictures in RGCH are any indication.
That is so funny. Here are a couple of the images.
I mean, really. Just another Saturday night in Bethel, surely?
-
45
Can You Defend Yourself before a J. Committee?
by D wiltshire into those who have been before a judicial committee for apostacy.. the elders will ask you questions not for the purpose of finding out the truth, but to make sure they can df you.. at my appeal hearing serveral months ago i was questioned by the appeal committees to their satifaction, they even thanked me for my honesty, as it helped them get what they were looking for to make the original dfing stand.. after they were finished with their questions i ask if i could now defend myself and prove that i was telling the truth and not a biblical apostate.. the chairman informed me that i would not be allowed to defend myself.. i looked at all 8 brothers(2 committees 5 & 3) in total amazement at his refusal to allow me to defend myself.
to them(8) it seem perfectly alright not to allow me to defend myself.. wow.. the chairman said they really were not a judicial court and did not need to be that concerned about doing things in harmony with what is concidered to be fair and right by worldly courts or the bible.
in fact the chairman spent about 10 minutes trying to explain why they didn't have have to be fair in the legalistic way of courts.. .
-
-
MrMonroe
Loved it. Loved the experience of d wiltshire who asked to be told what he was charged with and was asked in turn what HE thought it was. Amazing. The Spanish Inquisition of the middle ages couldn't have done it any better.
Their paranoia about legal representation and recording of the meeting is just insane. Watchtowers often note how the Old Testament juudicial process was to have cases heard "at the gate" and open to all. The WTS judicial process couldn't be more secretive and therefore more prone to abuse.
-
59
I Called the Headquarters About the "Slaughter of Apostates" Quote
by DT inin case you haven't heard, the november 15, 2011 watchtower, page 5 made this comment.
"today, no servant of jehovah uses physical force against opponents of pureworship.
"vengeance is mine," god says.
-
-
MrMonroe
Reading that Watchtower article again and seeing the linkage between Jehu's bloodthirstiness, the warnings about the dangers of apostates and DFd individuals, it crosses my mind that the quote from an otherwise unconnected book that happens to refer to the slaughter of apostates may be a deliberate act to provoke disaffected ex-JWs on forums such as this.
Could it be the GB is acting as a troll to fire up ex-JWs wth articles such as that, and the "mentally diseased" claim. Could they be seeding their articles with such inflammatory language, hoping to hit a nerve, then sitting back and waiting for the reaction on JWN?
Just wondering ....
-
59
I Called the Headquarters About the "Slaughter of Apostates" Quote
by DT inin case you haven't heard, the november 15, 2011 watchtower, page 5 made this comment.
"today, no servant of jehovah uses physical force against opponents of pureworship.
"vengeance is mine," god says.
-
-
MrMonroe
Jehu, as even that WT article explains, was a hypocritical religious zealot who took it upon himself to kill those who worshipped Baal and then turned out to be no better than any of his victims. According to 2 Kings 10:29, he took up golden calf worship.
Still, in the eyes of the WTS, anyone who was prepared to swing his sword and slaughter those who followed a different course of worship is a decent bloke. Especially when he did it in God's name. (Did he yell out Allah Akbah! as he beheaded them?) In fact, as the opening paragraph of the WT article claims,
"Jehu was a champion of pure worship. In carrying out this role he was energetic, prompt, relentless, zealous and courageous. Jehu manifested qualities that we would do well to imitate."
Really, he sounds a bit like the leaders of the Crusades of the Middle Ages who were dispatched by the Pope to slaughter the enemies of God. Does the Watchtower think they were "champions of pure worship", manifesting "qualities that we would do well to imitate"? What about Ron and Dan Lafferty, the fundamentalist Mormons who Jon Krakauer wrote about in "Under the Banner of Heaven"? They did a pretty good job too, slaughtering Brenda Lafferty and her 15-month-old baby because she wasn't playing the polygamy game as they believed God required. They were relentless, energetic and zealous as well, but shucks, it turned out they were wrong too, just like Jehu. Ah well.
Personally I think it's a bit worrying that the Watchtower puts a deeply flawed, bloodthirsty, hypocritical and self-righteous biblical figure like Jehu up on a pedestal and says to Witnesses, "We wish you could be like him." For a religion that claims to be the epitome of kindness and Christian love, it's a pretty dodgy position to take, holding up as a role model someone who relished the idea of killing anyone who followed a different religion and then mixing it up with the usual polemic about the dreadful APOSTATES and the necessity to "avoid the company of DISFELLOWSHIPPED individuals."
Charles Manson heard messages in the "Helter Skelter" song that led him to slaughter Sharon Tate. You kind of hope there are no mentally imbalanced individuals lurking in congregations somewhere who take the Watchtower's commendation of Jehu a little too literally.
-
-
-
MrMonroe
I used to like watching a UK police series, "The Bill" ... back in the old days when it was good, before they turned it into a soapie. One of the characters was a guy called Inspector Andrew Monroe. The young coppers used to call him Mr Monroe. When I had to come up with a user name, for some reason that popped into my head.
