Posts by JosephMalik

10

heavenly kingdom = government in Bible?

by Preston in

what's the difference betwen the kingdom that jesus mentioned and the government that is mentioned in daniel that will crush "all the other kingdoms".

is one a part of the other?

are they entirely different entities?

JosephMalik

There is no such thing as two separate governments that God actually uses to accomplish all his purpose as you claim.

Who does the Bible teach to be the future "Chieftain" mentioned in Ezekiel 44:1-3, 45:22, and 46:16,17, and what is his position with God?

BJC,

To insist that there are two kingdoms, you must prove your point not imagine it using symbolic or prophetic texts that say no such thing. It is recognized by many that the verses you refer to in Ezekiel simply use features of the Jewish Law covenant to depict the organization, order of and the responsibilities of those involved in this kingdom, the right or passage the reasoing behind it and authority of the Prince depicted therein. And this Prince is commonly understood by all to be the Christ. Thus we can look up a reference like Matthew Henrys commentary as just one example and see:

III. This oblation must be given for the prince in Israel, #Eze 45:16. Some read it to the prince, and understand it of Christ, who is indeed the prince in Israel, to whom we must offer our oblations, and into whose hands we must put them, to be presented to the Father. Or, They shall give it with the prince; every private person shall bring his oblation, to be offered with that of the prince; for it follows (#Eze 45:17). It shall be the princes part to provide all the offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel. The people were to bring their oblations to him according to the foregoing rules, and he was to bring them to the sanctuary, and to make up what fell short out of his own. Note, It is the duty of rulers to take care of religion, and to see that the duties of it be regularly and carefully performed by those under their charge,

As disciples we are expected to bring our offerings and add them to those of the Prince and this is why what we are as human beings and how we treat others matters so much to Christ. This is why the sheep who did good to their fellow man are saved and worthy to enter into it. Where is your proof? Quoting a lot of texts and making up imaginary scenarios does not cut it. The existence of only one Kingdom in the hands of the Christ has already been established. Christ opened this door to the one everlasting kingdom. It is our responsibility to attain entrance.

2 Peter 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Joseph

Edited by - JosephMalik on 7 October 2002 23:31:34

10

heavenly kingdom = government in Bible?

by Preston in

what's the difference betwen the kingdom that jesus mentioned and the government that is mentioned in daniel that will crush "all the other kingdoms".

is one a part of the other?

are they entirely different entities?

JosephMalik

Almighty God "cuts" them out to become this magnificent "stone" of authority. And of course, we notice this "kingdom" stone is "cut out without hands", human hands, so we see Jehovah God actually does all of the choosing and selecting of the makeup of this earthly "kingdom" governmental arrangement that eventually engulfs the entire earth, so no mistakes will be made in personnel choice.

BJC,

Choosing His Son to perform the tasks indicated above is the only choosing and selecting required of Jehovah God to perform this mission and fulfill this prophecy. Jehovah God delegates authority in much the same way as He authorized the creation of mankind to this same Son identified as the WORD at that time. So we have:

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son :

And the selection of and the makeup of this earthly kingdom will consist of sheep not goats as all humanity that ever existed is selected by this Son. So we have:

:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Proof therefore that it is the Son not Jehovah God does the choosing to which you refer above. After all there is only one kingdom and all resurrected mankind will live here on this earth as immortal human beings. And as Paul taught such human beings in this kingdom will be immortal at that time.

BJC said: This is why we can say, the Kingdom that Jesus referred to in John 18:36, "which is not of this world", is not one and the same with the kingdom of Daniel 2:44, which crushes "all other kingdoms" upon earth and "it itself stands to time indefinite". Instead the latter earthly "kingdom" exists and acts more as an extension and physical representation of the Grander Heavenly Governmental arrangement or "kingdom" in Heaven.

This was already discussed earlier in this thread. No evidence for two kingdoms was provided by you and the expression kingdom in heaven does not exist in scripture. Notice how this Jewish expression used by Matthew is rendered to Gentile audiences in Luke:

Matt. 11,11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Both expressions are identical in meaning and implication. Mark also used kingdom of God in his Gospel. Now which expression did our Lord actually use? It is the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven not the kingdom in heaven to which we look forward and this kingdom will exist here on earth in its entirety ruled by Christ until it is finally returned to His Father after all is said and done.

No one will go to heaven as the WT teaches as the seed sown was human and the seed that will result will be human. Only one mans seed qualified for both human and spirit realms and that seed was Jesus. No other human seed had a prior existencs as a non human. It is that simple.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

The glory of man will on the other hand be the same as the glory Christ had while existing as an immoral human being. This is what was sacrificed in our behalf and this is the remarkable feature of this kingdom. You see Christ regained what Adam lost for us while still here on earth. And that something was a transfiguration from mortality to immortality. No other human was completely transfigured in this manner so that they were illuminated right through their clothing. This is what Adam would have experienced if he had eaten from the tree of life. This is the glory awaiting all found worthy by Jesus the Son of man. Joseph

10

heavenly kingdom = government in Bible?

by Preston in

what's the difference betwen the kingdom that jesus mentioned and the government that is mentioned in daniel that will crush "all the other kingdoms".

is one a part of the other?

are they entirely different entities?

JosephMalik

Preston,

A kingdom is government, but a government that is ruled by a king. We can parse out features, identify leaders, subjects and people of influence even interchange terms but this changes nothing. Notice:

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Authority can be given or taken away. And Herod was only an appointed official as the real rulers were in Rome. So what he did was only relative, offering a piece of the action not real control. But such context is often not visible if we do not think such passages through or become too hung up on words. You see that was all the authority he had. And the context in all this discussion is rule over the earth not the universe. The role of God and His authority over everything is entirely a different matter. We are not discussing that to any great extent. Yet for this kingdom under discussion all power has been granted to His Son.

:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Now the Watchtower throws around words such as God's government to draw attention away from the Christ who is really in charge of us. They do not want you to focus on the texts that teach that you are to follow Jesus as they want to be in charge. A search for God's government in scripture will pull up Isaiah 9:6 a prophecy and nothing more. Handing this kingdom back to God after the final test proves the points made here. You see the scriptures pretty much end at that point and we will have to wait for further revelation to see beyond such a time.

Joseph

P.S. Take this verse for example:

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Who's kingdom? The Lord's (Jesus) kingdom. And what did Paul call it? His heavenly kingdom which is the same as calling it His Godly kingdom and this is not the same as God's kingdom (an absolute reference. To Jews the term heaven or heavenly means the same thing as God and Godly. This is in keeping with their aversion to using sacred names or terms.

JM

Edited by - JosephMalik on 6 October 2002 15:56:46

10

heavenly kingdom = government in Bible?

by Preston in

what's the difference betwen the kingdom that jesus mentioned and the government that is mentioned in daniel that will crush "all the other kingdoms".

is one a part of the other?

are they entirely different entities?

JosephMalik

Actually the Kingdom that Jesus referred to in John 18:36, "which is not of this world", is not one and the same with the kingdom of Daniel 2:44, which crushes "all other kingdoms" upon earth. So the Bible teaches us that God actually has two (2) separate "kingdoms" or governments that he uses to accomplish all of his purposes.

BJC

There is no such thing as two separate governments that God actually uses to accomplish all his purpose as you claim. Take a closer look at John 18:36. What does it teach?

:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

What world was Jesus discussing? Was it another place outside or earth? Or was it the world then existing with the Roman Empire in charge that had authority over His life? And if this should happen at another time in another world not under Romes authority what would Jesus have done? He would have ordered his (human) servants to fight. This is not a reference to another kingdom somewhere else but to another time in history in which this same kingdom under discussion would eventually exist. For it is written:

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Therefore this kingdom will be here on earth in that world "hence" yet to come.

As for 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

The one that will rule in this kingdom is none other that the one that was prophesied to sit on the throne of David. The use of prophetic names and references as used in Daniel and other places do not alter such facts. Regarding the Christ our King the one who will rule as God over man we have this irrefutable proof:

Heb. 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

This is a fact authorized by God Himself and no other human will rule over man in this kingdom with its inherent throne as you stated. Only this God here described this human like David is anointed above his fellows, his brothers that were created by him in the first place. You should know by now that the term heavenly does not in itself designate another place other that earth, but a place of authority over mankind. For the promise given to the twelve for that world was this:

Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Joseph

Edited by - JosephMalik on 6 October 2002 10:25:36

Edited by - JosephMalik on 6 October 2002 10:28:57 if to is and formatting.

Edited by - JosephMalik on 6 October 2002 10:33:2

25

A Question for the Males on the Board

by teenyuck in

jw
friends

as i went about my wifely duties today, i had a thought and would like the imput from some former brothers and/or elders, ms, po, co's.. since leaving the borg, has the way you view your wife/companion/daughter/sister/mother changed?

let me elaborate.

while being brought up a dub, i was taught that women were in subjection.

JosephMalik

teenyuck,

It took me a few years to finally understand this but women are equal in the faith. They can pray, hold position and teach equally with men. The problem was the way that Paul wrote and the way his letters are misinterpreted. There were clues in the way our Lord treated women but it looked like Paul supported the Jewish view of women. I finally saw how he was defending women against them by responding to their letters and put together a brief article on the subject.

Joseph

27

You can hate for many years, but you can love for

by kenpodragon in

jw
friends

one of those subjects we all study at some point in school, is the holocaust.

i remember thinking before i learned about it, that i knew all the horrors of this event already.

after all, it had been mentioned on many programs.

JosephMalik

kenpodragon,

Exposing the Watchtower for the evil it does is not hate. It is a function of our ministry and love for truth. Bringing people out of the Watchtower into the freedom of the Sons of God is not hate but an act of love and our responsibility. This is what our dedication to Jesus is all about. Some are disgusted and are still looking for direction and an outlet for their emotions. This may be considered hate by some. But our Lord is faithful and will lead such ones to his kingdom and all of us here can help. That is all I have to say.

Joseph

19

Who Wrote "Thirty Years A Watchtower Slave...

by Sentinel in

jw
friends

when i was recently making a list of the reference books in my personal collection, i recalled that there was this book that the witnesses were afraid of.

i was in my early twenties, and this fellow in the congregation had upset all the elders because he had read this book (thirty years a watchtower slave) and he tried to tell everyone he came across that the witnesses were wrong.

there was absolutely nothing wrong with this man.

JosephMalik

Joseph

Edited by - JosephMalik on 29 September 2002 10:41:39

47

Do You Believe Any of "The Truth"?

by XBEHERE in

jw
friends

i've been lurking for several months, its my first post here.

i am currently an active jw.

i have a very jw family so i have to be careful.

JosephMalik

XBEHERE,

While I do not believe in the trinity, I have come to realize that the WT does not understand the nature of Christ and His role in the Kingdom. Once you get beyond Trinity, Hellfire, and Immortal Soul practiacally everything the WT teaches is wrong. They do not understand the Kingdom, Salvation, Justification, Immortality, Gentile Times, Peace and Security, House to house, Women and their role in the Faith, Blood, Passover, Faithful/Evil slave and many other details of importance. You can get some idea of how bad it is by simply downloading our book on my web page.

Joseph

24

THE WITNESS RELIGION SUCKS

by minimus in

jw
friends

....and that's all i have to say .

JosephMalik

minimus dances with wolves. That was the expression the Chief used.

Joseph

23

I "ATE" SOMEONE ELSE'S BLOOD

by Francois in

jw
friends

three entire units of whole blood.

i needed surgery quickly, badly, right now.

i had bled out half my blood in a near-death accident, 'member?

JosephMalik

one experience does not make for scientific fact,

Of course it does. And this one is well documented in the hospital's medical records. Your ignorance of the matter does not make it unscientific or untrue. Furthermore you are the one that insulted me. That is also a fact and documented for all to see. Goodbye.

Joseph