jukief

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Posts by jukief

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  18

  Memories of Duncan - Part 2 - The Tables Turn

  by hillary_step in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  not long after a fifteen year old duncan had outraged his teachers and surprised his peers by leaving behind a promising academic career to regular pioneer and wash windows, a telegraph pole wearing green pants knocked at my door.

  as i was expecting a visit from the local constabulary, for reasons noted below; the pole was a pleasant surprise.

  the pole was a actually a jw, the plainest and longest man i had ever seen, with a mighty grin capable of felling empires and, i was to discover, also the possessor of a formidable intellect.

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  jukief

  Great stuff, Hillary! Keep it coming.

  AlanF
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  32

  My Committment to JWD

  by Amazing in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i debated the wisdom of making this post.

  i have made every effort to make it as neutral as possible to avoid personally offending anyone.

  i may be losing my marbles here, but i feel that this needs to be said.

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  jukief

  Although I've followed this round of disagreements, I've kept out of it. But I would like to make a few comments. Take them or leave them, as you see fit.

  I've been an active participant on the Internet since 1993--back in the days before the advent of the Web. So I have quite a few years of experience observing personalities and how people communicate in an electronic forum. And I've learned one thing: It's impossible to know someone well enough simply from reading his/her posts to made an informed decision about that person's true personality or motivations. Over the years, I've had the experience of reading people's posts, communicating with them extensively via email or telephone, and then eventually meeting them in person. I've found that, although I felt I got to know people fairly well via posts and email, it wasn't until I meet them and truly got to know them that I could partially begin to understand them.

  I said "partially." Why? I've also found during my 47 years of life--30 in the organization and 17 out of it--that people are complex beings, and it's nearly impossible to pin labels on people or understand their true motivations. I'll give you a couple of examples of why I feel this way.

  My little brother is an elder and circuit overseer in training. He and his wife have been regular pioneers for years; his only son just went to Bethel. He's a Nazi elder, which he's proved over the years by his actions. He starting shunning my sister and me more than 10 years ago based on the fact that we stopped attending meetings (we've never been DA'd or DF'd). He's refuses to participate in any family activities--including my parents' 50th anniversary--if my sister and I are in attendance. He's gone after people who weren't even in his congregation, in campaigns to get the "goods" on them and get them disfellowshipped. He has a reputation of being a hardliner, a mean bastard, an asshole. I've known him all 44 years of his life. I've observed him in almost every situation. I've had long talks with him. You would think that I'd be able to come to an informed conclusion about him--what personality type he has, what his motivations are, what makes him tick. But you'd be wrong. I honestly can't. My brother is a complex person; he's intelligent, but he's also had experiences and influences that I don't fully understand. My sister, my parents, and I have had long discussions trying to understand what makes him tick and figure out what he's going to do as the heat on the organization intensifies. None of us can do it. We simply don't know.

  Here's my second example. My first real job--after 11 years as a housewife (I got married as soon as I graduated from high school)--was a glazier in a busy commercial glass shop. I was an experiment, the first woman glazier in town. My boss was a guy named Lane (my father, who also worked at the glass shop, used to say, "When you know Lane, you know pain."). Lane's nickname around the shop was "Gabby" and it fit him perfectly. The man never shut up. He was the most obnoxious person I'd ever met, in ways that are difficult to explain. Hardly anyone in the shop liked him; in fact, most people went out of their way to avoid him. But I was stuck with him; he was my boss, and he took great delight in following me around and critiquing everything I did. Finally, after putting up with him for a month, I told him that he was obnoxious--quite a step for me, because I'm not a confrontational person and never say things like that to people. He took it pretty well, and I could see that he made an effort to be more likable. But he couldn't change the fact that he was Lane. As time went on, however, I started to see a different side to him. He was a giving person who went out of his way to do things for people. When I moved to Fort Collins to start school, he arranged for the rental of my moving truck (got me a sizeable discount), came over and loaded the entire truck, and then drove it up to Fort Collins for me because my dad's back was bothering him too much to drive. He unloaded on the other end and drove the truck the back (a 400-mile round trip). He gave up his whole weekend to do this for us. What I discovered from knowing Lane is that people can appear to be a certain way, and that aspect of their personality might be so overwhelming that it obscures other things about them. The secret of getting to know and appreciate people is to look past their shortcomings and focus on their good points. After many years of knowing Lane, I came to understand why he acted the way he did, and I was able to develop a genuine liking for him.

  This board has a real mix of people from a lot of different backgrounds. And each one of us comes here carrying a lot of baggage. Whether we like it (or admit it) or not, that baggage colors the way we see things and the way we react to people. Have you ever met someone and instantly taken a dislike to them? I have, and several times I realized later that I disliked the person because he/she reminded me of someone I didn't like or had had a bad experience with. I think that often happens. We all have experiences in our lives that cause us to react to stimuli in different ways. The person I might take an instant dislike to might be the same person someone else finds delightful and endearing; we'd have a hard time understanding each others' impressions.

  All I can say is that we need to give each other the benefit of a doubt. Most of us have suffered through some extremely difficult circumstances, and we need to be patient and understanding with each other. And we certainly shouldn't judge others' motives and personalities based merely on participation in this unrealistic forum.

  One last comment and then I'll shut up. Back in 1993, when I first got involved in the internet, I met some great people--some of them, like Alan, Marilyn, Kent, JanH, Norm, Ginny, and others--participate on this board. There weren't many of us ex-JW internet participants in those days, and we all formed friendships that endure to this day. We all wrote each other so often that we finally started a cc list, which evolved into a listserve that we named philia. For a while it was a delightful place. We have lively, interesting discussions. No one attacked anyone else. We allowed each other our foibles and differences of opinion; we were able to discuss controversial subjects without calling each other names or making personal attacks. But then philia started to change. We lost control of who joined, and soon the list had hundreds of people on it. People argued and sniped at each other; it was not a pleasant place. Eventually, every single one of the founding members left the group.

  For some reason, this seems to happen in every large internet community, and it happens here. That's one of the reasons I don't participate much; I don't like name calling, judgements, and personal attacks. For that reason, I've limited my participation in this forum and will continue to do so. I prefer to get to know people on a one-by-one basis. I've found too often that internet personas aren't a true representation of people's personalities.
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  4

  Thanks, Amazing

  by jukief in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i want to thank you for your recent posts about your experiences coming out of the religion.

  i've always thought that personal experiences are more powerful and convincing than arguing doctrinal points.

  although there's a place for such arguments and discussions, seeing what other people have been through and how they've dealt with their loss of faith and extracting themselves from the religion are most compelling and helpful for people who are going through the same experience.. my parents are in a difficult position; they no longer believe in the religion, but they feel that if they were to just quit, their two children who are still jws will shun them.

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  jukief

  I want to thank you for your recent posts about your experiences coming out of the religion. I've always thought that personal experiences are more powerful and convincing than arguing doctrinal points. Although there's a place for such arguments and discussions, seeing what other people have been through and how they've dealt with their loss of faith and extracting themselves from the religion are most compelling and helpful for people who are going through the same experience.

  My parents are in a difficult position; they no longer believe in the religion, but they feel that if they were to just quit, their two children who are still JWs will shun them. They've had a lot of heartache over the destruction of their family and the loss of their long-held faith. Experiences like yours are especially meaningful for people like them.

  I look forward to reading the rest of your story. Keep those posts coming!!

  Julie F
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  21

  Part 5: The Beginning of the End

  by Amazing in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  part 5: the beginning of the end .

  note: from this point forward begins not only my final journey out of the jws, but even more bizarre and twisted turns in the road.

  i hope you all find this interesting, because to me it only gets more intriguing and weird for the 3 12 years following january 1992... moment of decision: i can point back to the mountain top visit with god, or maybe today i might call it a visit with my higher power, whomever she/he/it might be.

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  jukief

  I find this very interesting because here in Colorado, home schooling is encouraged! My sister (whose husband is the PO) took her daughter (an only child) out of school around grade 7--to keep her away from worldly boys, she said. She was praised and the family was looked up to as an example. Of course, it didn't help that the daughter ended up rebelling big time--despite her parents' efforts to keep her away from "wordly" influences. She ended smoking, using drugs, prostituting herself, etc. I thought it was pretty ironic.

  That's one of the things I hate about the dubs--the double standards.
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  12

  Why Not Reject 1st Century Org. as God's ?

  by Explorer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  to all those offended by the wt's behavior :.

  one of the biggest cause of confusion among loyal ones to the wt org.

  today, and those dissenting, is the very concept of what to expect from jehovah's organization on earth.

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  jukief

  I know this isn't the answer you're looking for, but I also reject the idea of an early Christian congregation because I'm agnostic. I don't see any valid proof that the Christian god even exists, let alone that he had/has an organization. So whatever arguments people might find in the Bible are meaningless to me.

  Personally, I think *all* organized religion stinks.
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  28

  My visit to the Hall Last Night- Highlights

  by TR in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and blah.

  monotone, monotone, monotone,.

  monotone, monotone.. you were right, moxy.

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  jukief

  Looks like nothing much has changed since I stopped attending meetings 17 years ago.
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  1

  Another corporate breakup

  by jukief in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  from the onion:.

  judge orders god to break up into smaller deities.

  washington, dc--calling the theological giant's stranglehold on the religion industry "blatantly anti-competitive," a u.s. district judge ruled monday that god is in violation of anti-monopoly laws and ordered him to be broken up into several less powerful deities.. "the evidence introduced in this trial has convinced me that the deity known as god has willfully and actively thwarted competition from other deities and demigods, promoting his worship with such unfair scare tactics as threatening non-believers with eternal damnation," wrote district judge charles elliot schofield in his decision.

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  jukief

  From The Onion:

  Judge Orders God to Break Up Into Smaller Deities

  WASHINGTON, DC--Calling the theological giant's stranglehold on the religion industry "blatantly anti-competitive," a U.S. district judge ruled Monday that God is in violation of anti-monopoly laws and ordered Him to be broken up into several less powerful deities.

  "The evidence introduced in this trial has convinced me that the deity known as God has willfully and actively thwarted competition from other deities and demigods, promoting His worship with such unfair scare tactics as threatening non-believers with eternal damnation," wrote District Judge Charles Elliot Schofield in his decision. "In the process, He has carved out for Himself an illegal monotheopoly."
  The suit, brought against God by the Justice Department on behalf of a coalition of "lesser deities" and polytheistic mortals, alleged that He violated antitrust laws by claiming in the Holy Bible that He was the sole creator of the universe, and by strictly prohibiting the worship of what He termed "false idols."
  "God clearly commands that there shall be no other gods before Him, and He frequently employs the phrase 'I AM the Lord' to intimidate potential deserters," prosecuting attorney Geoffrey Albert said. "God uses other questionable strongarm tactics to secure and maintain humanity's devotion, demanding, among other things, that people sanctify their firstborn to Him and obtain circumcisions as a show of faith. There have also been documented examples of Him smiting those caught worshipping graven images."
  Attorneys for God did not deny such charges. They did, however, note that God offers followers "unbeatable incentives" in return for their loyalty, including eternal salvation, protection from harm, and "fruitfulness."
  "God was the first to approach the Jewish people with a 'covenant' contract that guaranteed they would be the most favored in His eyes, and He handed down standards of morality, cleanliness, and personal conduct that exceeded anything else practiced at the time," lead defense attorney Patrick Childers said. "He readily admits to being a 'jealous' God, not because He is threatened by the prospect of competition from other gods, but because He is utterly convinced of the righteousness of His cause and that He is the best choice for mortals. Many of these so-called gods could care less if somebody bears false witness or covets thy neighbor's wife. Our client, on the other hand, is truly a 'People's God.'"
  In the end, however, God was unable to convince Schofield that He did not deliberately create a marketplace hostile to rival deities. God's attorneys attempted to convince the judge of His openness to rivals, pointing to His longtime participation in the "Holy Trinity," but the effort failed when Schofield determined that Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are "more God subsidiaries than competitors."
  To comply with federal antitrust statutes, God will be required to divide Himself into a pantheon of specialized gods, each representing a force of nature or a specific human custom, occupation, or state of mind.
  "There will most likely be a sun god, a moon god, sea god, and rain god," said religion-industry watcher Catherine Bailey. "Then there will be some second-tier deities, like a god of wine, a goddess of the harvest, and perhaps a few who symbolize human love and/or blacksmithing."
  Leading theologians are applauding the God breakup, saying that it will usher in a new era of greater worshipping options, increased efficiency, and more personalized service.
  "God's prayer-response system has been plagued by massive, chronic backlogs, and many prayers have gone unanswered in the process," said Gene Suozzi, a Phoenix-area Wiccan. "With polytheism, you pray to the deity specifically devoted to your concern. If you wish to have children, you pray to the fertility goddess. If you want to do well on an exam, you pray to the god of wisdom, and so on. This decentralization will result in more individualized service and swifter response times."
  Other religious experts are not so confident that the breakup is for the best, pointing to the chaotic nature of polytheistic worship and noting that multiple gods demand an elaborate regimen of devotion that today's average worshipper may find arduous and inconvenient.
  "If people want a world in which they must lay burnt offerings before an earthenware household god to ensure that their car will start on a cold winter morning, I suppose they can have it," said Father Thomas Reinholdt, theology professor at Chicago's Loyola University. "What's more, lesser deities are infamous for their mercurial nature. They often meddle directly in diplomatic affairs, abduct comely young mortal women for their concubines, and are not above demanding an infant or two for sacrifice. Monotheism, for all its faults, at least means convenience, stability, and a consistent moral code."
  One deity who is welcoming the verdict is the ancient Greek god Zeus, who described himself as "jubilant" and "absolutely vindicated."
  "For thousands of years, I've been screaming that this third-rate sky deity ripped me off wholesale," said Zeus, speaking from his Mt. Olympus residence. "Every good idea He ever had He took from me: Who first created men in his own image? Who punished mankind for its sins? Who lived eternally up in the clouds? And the whole fearsome, patriarchal, white-beard, thunderbolt thing? I was doing that eons before this two-bit hustler started horning in on the action."
  Lawyers for God say they plan to appeal Schofield's ruling and are prepared to go all the way to the Supreme Court if necessary.
  "This decision is a crushing blow to God worshippers everywhere, and we refuse to submit to a breakup until every possible avenue of argument is pursued," Childers said. "I have every confidence that God will ultimately win, as He and His lawyers are all-powerful."
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  38

  why, what made you join JWs?

  by tosko in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i would like some brief stories of people saying the reasons they joined jw organisation.

  where you already in another church, were you disillusioned, were you biblically illiterate?

  and if it is possible, please let me know where you come from, hoping you're not all from usa.

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  jukief

  I was born into it; so was my father. His parents converted (they were Lutheran) shortly after their 12-year-old daughter died. Someone caught them at a vulnerable time and started talking about the resurrection.

  My mother converted at age 17. Ironically, I think what drew her to the religion was the resurrection hope, too. At that age, both her parents and one sister were already dead. Also, her mother had been a 7th Day Adventist, and I think the familiarity of the JW teachings might have influenced her. She says she had been actively searching for the "truth" when the dubs found her.
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  23

  A question to people born in the Borg*

  by Abaddon in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  * that anyone can respond to even if they weren't born in, or even if they never were in the borg.

  the question is;.

  "when do you first remember realising that you were a jw, and that the rest of the world wasn't?!.

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  jukief

  I can't ever remember a time when I *didn't* realize I was a JW. I was three years old when we attended the 1958 international assembly in Yankee Stadium; I have a blurred memory of that. My dad was an elder and my parents always took us out in service from the time we were babies. By five years of age, I was giving presentations at the doors and joined the ministry school at age seven. When I was eight years old and working house to house with my best friend, someone shot at us; I felt the projectile (don't know if it was a bullet or a bb) whiz past my face. Then about a year later, I was working door to door with an elderly brother when the householder booted him off the front porch, injuring him pretty severely. I guess you'd say I realized during my entire childhood that we were different. :-)
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  27

  I'm sick of this boring life!!

  by Nicolas in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i'm really tired of always having to fight.

  i don't have any friends in this world and i don't want to return to the evil watchtower.

  it seem to me that everyone else around have fun and enjoy the life while, i still don't know what to i do with my life.

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  jukief

  Nick, I think people here have made some excellent suggestions. As someone who has suffered from several severe attacks of clinical depression, I strongly urge you to get help. Depression goes through cycles, just like other illnesses. If you're feeling worse than usual, it's appropriate to go back to therapy. (I've gone back several times over the years.) Also, have you ever been on an antidepressant? I really believe that antidepressants have saved my life. And if you have any kind of social disorder, the meds should help that, too. Talk to your doctor about it.

  I also think the suggestion of volunteer work is a good one. I know from experience that when I'm down in the dumps I tend to focus on myself too much. Going out and doing something for other people really helps you to see outside your own limited circle. It's also a great way to meet people with whom you might have a lot in common.

  I made most of my post-JW friends when I was in college. It took a while, because when I started I was a 31-year-old freshman, and most of the people in my classes were 18 year olds. But I persevered and went out of my way to befriend older students in my classes. That was 16 years ago, and almost of all of those friendships have endured to this day. I've also made a lot of friends at my various jobs. As a JW, I was shy and retiring and socially inept. I found I had to make a real effort to overcome those tendencies. I'm a different person now--outspoken and extroverted. If you work hard at it, you can change this aspect of your personality. Heck, I went from being a teenaged girl who was afraid to talk to boys to an outrageous flirt! If I could make the transition, anyone can!

  It takes time to adjust your attitude about "worldly" people. But in time you'll find that there are a lot of exceptional, lovely people out there and that they're much better friends than any JWs you've ever known. Give them a chance, and reach out to people. You have nothing to lose by doing so.

  Good luck.

  Julie