I was always pretty good at the ministry, probably because I never read the KM and didn't bore people with inane and fallible tripe from the Watchtower. Leaving a WT with someone is as good as asking "Will you throw this away for me?" I showed people scriptures and offered to study the Bible with them. Of course, actually being familiar with the Bible helped, as I was usually competent to answer questions people had from the Bible, instead of digging out some canned answer written on a grade-school level. I've never had a door slammed in my face, never been yelled at or cussed out (except a few times I had to hear about something stupid some other JW said or did, but we always parted as friends). I loved the ministry except for always feeling like I had to apologize for and clean up the messes of ignorant, nasty, judgmental, stupid JWs that are the majority. I rarely identified myself as a JW, because they are an embarrassment. I had several people tell me things to the effect of "You're the first JW to make any sense" or "You're the first JW that doesn't seem crazy." No wonder they want me silenced: Crazy nonsense is their bread and butter.
WontLeave
JoinedPosts by WontLeave
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Get to the point!
by Mr. Falcon intwo jehovah's witnesses walk up to a house and knock on the door.
a younger man wearing a t-shirt with all kinds of swirl-patterns on it (think tie-dye, but not quite) answers the door and the first jw goes into his presentation.
he is offering the watchtower on the "occult" (cue spooky music).
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Anyone else get stabbed in the back?
by WontLeave ini was a gung-ho advocate for jws.
i got on the message boards and would argue down any detractor, apostate, church pastor, disgruntled ex-jw, you name it... i was out in the ministry constantly, practically running from door to door, preaching.
i started studies left and right.
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WontLeave
Are the reasons stated above the only reasons this happened to you?
A couple of things occurred that put me in the back room and I don't want to get into the details, because they're pretty specific and while I will gladly get in anyone's face - elder, pioneer, C/O, the GB themselves - when they demand I recant, reject, or just shut up about the Bible, I'm not quite to the point I want to jump completely out of the closet, yet. It was obvious grasping at straws. I didn't even suspect a problem. I actually thought they were taking me back there about "reaching out" for a higher position. The first few times, when I found out why I was back there, I laughed at them, until the novelty started wearing off and getting ridiculous, then it started pissing me off.
That is your crime and pretending you don't know that is you being obtuse. You know there is no room for dissent.
I found that out. That's one of those doctrines they keep up their sleeve for when you're already in. Kind of like finding about Xenu once you've spent thousands in Scientology. I wonder how field service would go if they opened with that little tid-bit: "Hello, we're just calling on our neighbors today to tell them to bow before 7 old men who can't figure out what a 'generation' is, but whatever they decide it is this week, you'd better believe it, too."
I doubt you ever argued anyone down, but remember, the same zeal you use to disagree with us, to apologize for the WT
I never defended the indefensible and wouldn't preach dogma. I flatly refused to use the Watchtower when multiple elders demanded so. I saw many mistakes in it and would only preach things I knew were actually based on Scripture.
What scriptures were you defending against the elders with their WTs?
Mostly about other JWs claiming to be "stumbled" by anything out of the ordinary and about elders being able to order publishers around on a whim with no Scriptural basis. Basically, not being a hive-minded drone became some kind of serious sin. I heard "be obedient to those who are taking the lead" like it was on an endless loop tape. I think that's the only verse elders know and they refuse to temper it with any other Scripture. They've been told by the WTS that makes them little gods and the losers in cheap suits' fragile egos really demand that glory.
Therefore your elders feel you are stirring up trouble and possibly feeding doubts to the FDS?
That's the weird part. It's like other JWs would find some peculiar teaching from some obscure article somewhere that flew in the face of logic and Scripture and virtually dare me to disagree. There was quite a list of them before I found out dissent wasn't allowed. So, elders confronted me about my beliefs. I guess my "brothers" and "sisters" were setting me up. I was unaware of their redefinition of "apostate" to mean "someone with reading comprehension above a 4th-grade level". I was told "you're not wrong, but..." and called "borderline apostate", "an outsider", "a criminal as far as the Society is concerned", etc.
You, my friend, are confusing Jehovah's house with the Watchtower.
Don't underestimate how bad Jehovah's house can get. Look at the book of Judges, the 1st-century Pharisees, and the Inquisitions for a few examples of things that have happened in Jehovah's house. Things are only going to get worse.
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Anyone else get stabbed in the back?
by WontLeave ini was a gung-ho advocate for jws.
i got on the message boards and would argue down any detractor, apostate, church pastor, disgruntled ex-jw, you name it... i was out in the ministry constantly, practically running from door to door, preaching.
i started studies left and right.
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WontLeave
I was a gung-ho advocate for JWs. I got on the message boards and would argue down any detractor, apostate, church pastor, disgruntled ex-JW, you name it... I was out in the ministry constantly, practically running from door to door, preaching. I started studies left and right. I literally wore my Bible out (and one of my pet peeves is mistreating books). I never sought the "pioneer" title, even though I was far exceeding the requirements. I signed up to serve where the need was greater. I was in it 100%...
Then, suddenly, it began. I find myself in arguments with other JWs over things that are unambiguously stated in Scripture. I actually end up in the back room defending the Bible against elders wielding Watchtower articles. I end up "marked", sanctioned, and excluded from any and all service - just shy of DFed. I'm never actually confronted with any accusation of wrongdoing and never dragged before a judicial committee, but a judicial sanction is placed on me for which there is no policy - overt or in the "Flock" book - which allows it. I'm under "special shepherding", as though I'm a pedophile, among other things that might betray my identity so I won't get into them.
I speak to the C/O about it, thinking "I'll go over these morons' heads." I get the runaround with him, so I write the Branch. Little did I know at the time, the Branch was the source of the main attack which all but pushed me out completely. With no request for input from me, totally without my knowledge, and without even an explanation, I'm a pariah. I have no clue what the Society has down as the reason for my situation and nobody's given me any insight as to what my crime was or how to rectify the situation. No judicial committee means no appeal; just an administrative order from an anonymous source in Patterson.
Basically, it's like a manager who just doesn't like an employee, but the worker hasn't done anything to fire him for. So, the manager cuts his hours to like 4 a week, in hopes the employee just quits and leaves. But I'm not going anywhere. They'll have to throw me out in fulfillment of "YOUR brothers that are hating YOU, that are excluding YOU by reason of my name" (Isa 66:5) and "Men will expel YOU from the synagogue." (John 16:1) No, I feel I belong in Jehovah's house, even though I know I'm seen as an outsider (and been called such in those exact words). The current Pharisees will have some serious explaining to do. Jesus didn't like their kind the last time he was here and I doubt if he'll have much use for people who use the Scriptures about the Pharisees to be even more arrogant.
I'm just wondering if anyone else here was betrayed out of the blue? Anyone else suppressed or silenced for being too enthusiastic about the Bible? Attacked from all sides by sneering "brothers" and "sisters" with their constant looking for something to be offended about? Put on trial constantly over nothing by jealous old losers who don't know anything about science, history, logic, or the Bible? Ever heard of anyone being all but DFed for no stated reason, with no recourse, indefinitely?
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Stupid not just once but twice, and it is praised
by therevealer in12 the watchtower ?
5 what good results there can be when.
children are trained to keep a simple eye!.
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WontLeave
I hate with a passion, JW literature and their anecdotal evidence.
"Steve (names are changed), from the US..."
Who is "Steve"? Can I call him and verify this story? Is this example like an exercise device infomercial - "results not typical"? Have some very important details been left out? Have some particulars been exaggerated into 'tall tale' proportions? Is the whole story actually just some allegorical fable?
At least back in the day JW literature was written by people who signed their writings. Examples were about real people with real names; even pictures. The only people pictured anymore are concentration camp survivors who are now dead (or anonymous Bethelites). In recent decades, the WTS expects all to have such faith in what they say, their writings transcend verification and accountability. Either that, or they've become such utter BS that every precaution must be taken so that the sources can't be questioned, assuming any actual source even exists.
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WTBTS NEEDS MONEY NOW !
by Hairyhegoat inreading about the mass amounts of money involved in all this acquisition of blocks of properties... in new york city no less, .
is so contrary to how the organization expects it's loyal "servants" to live their lives, .... it is shocking!!
these buildings are, for the most part (maybe all) renovated with free labour and then sold for great fortunes.
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WontLeave
They talk out both sides of their mouths on things like this. First, they tout how much real estate the Society owns, as evidence that 'God is blessing them'. Then, they beg for money. However, they never actually imply they need money; they just ask for it a lot, lately. With all the cutbacks in printing facilities, cheapening the quality of the literature (e.g. paperbacks), making many things available for download so they don't have to actually give anything tangible away, taking all "extra" money from the local halls, etc., it may appear they're having money problems, but I think they're just becoming more miserly and power-hungry.
I've always loved the JWs who would rationalize a value of the literature based on retail of a similar-sized book. I've heard the Watchtower valued at a few dollars, small books at $5-10, Bibles at $40-60. Are they nuts? I see Bibles in the dollar stores all the time. Printing and recording are actually ridiculously cheap businesses. The profit margin is incredible, which is why companies who do that can invest huge quantities of money in marketing talent, in hopes people buy their books or albums. For every success story in printing and recording, those companies have lost tons in failures. A religion doesn't have that risk, because every member is a guaranteed customer. ...and in the case of JWs, the major cost of printing - labor - is negligible.
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I got turned down for a bible study!
by frigginconfused ina freind of mine went online and requested a bible study.
they showed up while she was gone and i talked to them.
i told them they could come over to talk to me and we could try to find my place in the org.
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WontLeave
Quentin:
Impalement as a method of torture and execution involves the body of a person being pierced with a long stake.impale: to pierce with or as if with something pointed - Miriam-Webster dictionary
Jesus was impaled by the nails, regardless of your stake/cross take.
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Are You A "Dictionary Atheist"?
by cofty inthere is more to .. atheism than simple denial of one claim; it's actually based on a scientific attitude that values evidence and reason, that rejects claims resting solely on authority, and that encourages deeper exploration of the world.
atheism is not solely a negative claim about gods, but is based on a whole set of positive values ... that denial of god thing?
it's a consequence, not a cause.
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WontLeave
Sadly, the more ignorant someone is, the more they cling to their "beliefs". More people need to stop believing and start knowing, and knowing requires information rather than just picking what you wish to believe and looking for websites that promote that belief. I saw a quote recently that I liked - I believe it was from Abraham Lincoln: "Once a man forms a theory, he sees evidence for it everywhere he looks." Conspiracy theorists do it, Evolutionists do it, theists do it - and actively seeking "proofs" while summarily rejecting or avoiding any disproof only polarizes someone even more.
The way I look at it, I don't have a dog in the race: I didn't write the Bible, the Q'ran, Book of Mormon, Origin of Species, etc... I just want to know. Knowing is difficult and arduous, with all the agendas. Reading through the BS, spin, and propaganda requires a lot more effort than the vast majority of people are willing to expend. But, maybe that's a choice each must make: Know about life or have a life, because there isn't enough time in the day to do both. So, most just pick a belief system that fits their lifestyle, run with it, and hope for the best.
Far too many people seem to fall at the opposite end of the spectrum, though. People who know absolutely nothing and cling militantly to their beliefs, while demanding all around them adopt those same beliefs. The more ignorant and brainwashed someone is, it seems the more angry and demanding that one is. It's as if somewhere in their minds, they know they look stupid, but elevating one's self is a lot more difficult than bringing others down to your level. In cases where they refuse to adopt our belief, simply deluding ourselves to the knee-jerk reaction that person is "a goat", "arrogant", "infidel", "apostate", "stupid", "redneck theist", etc. is more pleasing to the ego than admitting our argument was unpersuasive.
The reality is, most people we encounter have chosen their belief system by what fits their lives and they really don't feel like taking the time and effort to completely reassess that belief unless something major happens in their lives to shake that foundation. Something happened in my life that made me doubt everything I'd been spoon-fed and put me on a "journey of enlightenment". Sometimes that happens, but most will simply be repelled to what they feel is "the other side" of whatever dichotomy they perceive and settle into another belief system that fits their current mindset and move on with life.
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Believers: Does Jesus Personally Talk to You?
by leavingwt insome of my christian co-workers have related to me how jesus has spoken to them.
one of the comments that i remember specifically, was this:.
"jesus put it on my heart to [take a certain course of action].
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WontLeave
No actual voices, but I often pray for understanding and seem to grasp things from the Bible nobody else I talk to seems to get. Granted, JWs don't read the Bible with a view to understand it, but relegate that to the Watchtower to dumb down and "explain" for them. One pioneer asked me what sort of things I pray for and I told her I don't pray to ask for much, because I don't believe God is very hands-on right now. Many JWs practically believe in faith healing. I was at an assembly and a woman in one "experience" said her prayers were answered when her husband's cancer went into remission. But I digress... I told her I did pray for understanding. She looked at me funny and asked "Isn't that the faithful and discreet slave's job?" Perhaps because of my persistent knocking, I am granted "power beyond what is normal" in the capacity of understanding the Bible, or maybe I just really care what it says rather than seeing Bible reading as a chore I have to do before the evening meeting so I can make a canned comment borrowed from a Watchtower article written on a 3rd-grade reading level.
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For those that are and have been married,did the JW lifestyle aggravate "typical" marital and family problems?
by miseryloveselders ini ask this in consideration of last week's and this week's congregation bible study which focuses on the responsibilities of christian parents, and husbands.
i also ask this in harmony with itscrap&theyknowit's thread which is a heluva opening post by the way.
i linked it below for those that aren't familiar with it.. http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/206133/1/why-i-eventually-left.
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WontLeave
It's my opinion that anyone, regardless of denomination, who allows outside human "interpretation" or blatant man-made rules to run their lives gets what they deserve. Not to remove all blame from people who run cults, governments, or churches, but it is our own brains we need to protect from being washed. Most people are so lazy and/or apathetic they'll give control of their very minds over to someone else. Human nature being what it is, if you offer your mind to someone else - especially someone who craves that very power - they'll take it.
The vast majority of people in churches - JWs included - claim to base their lives on the Bible, yet have never read it. Many of the ones who do read it don't care enough to pay attention and don't comprehend and/or immediately forget what they read. Repeatedly, the Bible warns against granting other people power over your faith, because they are imperfect - both in ability and in motive. (2 Thes 4:3-4, 1John 4:1, Acts 17:11, Pro 14:15, Eph 4:14-15, Gal 2:4-5, Col 3:23-24, 1Sam 12:20-21, 2Pet 2:18-21, 1Tim 4:1-5, Psa 146:3, 118:8, Jer 15:5, Luke 11:35) If people ignore all of those warnings - and many others, both direct and indirect - in favor of some convoluted, pathetic explanations of what "faithful and discreet slave" and "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive" mean, then it's difficult to have too much sympathy.
This isn't 1100 AD, people. You can get a Bible for free, at a dollar store, read it online in many versions. The rich man and Lazarus was all about access to the Scriptures. For hundreds of years, people were willing to die to see what the Bible really said, so they wouldn't have to take their clergy's word for it. Now, people have one sitting on the coffee table they completely take for granted. Meanwhile, they claim to live by it. Then, they blame a denomination for the duality of their mind where they will entertain conflicting thoughts and brainwash themselves to hold both as truth.
People blame the Catholic Church for Inquisitions, Puritans for witch hunts, Nazis for the Holocaust, cults for mass suicides, governments for wars and war crimes, etc. Why are all the people who actually perpetrate the deeds absolved of responsibility? We invite mind control by not taking control of our own minds. JWs are just another group of people acting as a group. Mob mentality is a very powerful thing, but every mob is made up of individuals who have relinquished their minds to the mob and each is personally responsible - in courts and to God.
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A serious Bible contradiction for me
by sabastious inmark 9:.
38 teacher, said john, we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.. 39 do not stop him, jesus said.
for no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me,40for whoever is not against us is for us.41 truly i tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the messiah will certainly not lose their reward.. .
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WontLeave
Even with no context, there is no problem. Jesus promotes a common idea in the Bible: There are only 2 sides, a dichotomy - like a flip of a coin. If it's not heads, it's tails. In the cosmic sheep/goats division process, everyone must fall into a "friend" or "foe" category.