I know from first-hand experience "stumbling" is a catch-all term invoked by JWs who don't like something you're doing, but can't come up with any reason it's actually wrong. The busybodies and cowards know if they use the word "stumble" to the elders, they'll do their dirty work for them. This exact tactic was used in an attempt to force Jesus and his followers to wash their hands to the elbow. Depending on how much of a front you want to put on - for family, friends, etc. - thank the elders for their "concern" and "counsel" and you'll take it into consideration, but the decision is ultimately yours. I've done this and I can tell you, you will not be popular with that committee and they will be gunning for you from then on.
WontLeave
JoinedPosts by WontLeave
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36
Counselled on chatting to a study!
by Penn9 inhey all, i'm new to posting, but i've lurked for a while.
quick intro: i'm a 25 yr old guy, brought up a jw, strayed for a while, then got baptized convinced it was the best thing for me, the rest of the world is satanic, etc.
i overcame that ridiculous belief and i know the truth about "the truth" but my friends and family are all deep into the cult so leaving is a huge risk that i'm not willing or ready to take.
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209
The trouble with Christianity. TRINITY.
by whereami ingotta love pat.. "ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions.
ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity.
it is the mere abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of jesus.
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WontLeave
It's funny because I have yet to meet ONE that things that way.
Likewise, I've never encountered a JW who will admit there is human leadership which must be obeyed. The fds and Trinity doctines are nearly identical in every way. Extrapolated from Scripture and forced down the laity's throats until they "get it". Once the laity "get it", their fragile egos get bent all out of shape when dealing with someone who doesn't "get it".
This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved. - Athanasian Creed
Just like JWs, you have to nail them down in their writings, because those can't be adapted to weasel out of the argument.
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WontLeave
I knew at a glance this guy wasn't a JW. The picture in the suit, he's taking far too large a stride to be in service. JWs do the "pioneer shuffle", whereas people who actually have things to do which give them a feeling of accomplishment move.
As a baby, he's not being paddled for fussing in a Kingdom Hall. He's obviously not taught at home, since he's carrying books. He's got his bike out instead of being dressed up in a suit and tie on Saturday and Sunday to push man-made magazines as the word of God. Now, if he stayed a dishwasher his whole life, it might have fooled me.
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Did you beleive you were A intellectual when you were a JW
by jam ini am embarrass to say when i was a jw and a elder i. thought i could sit down and speak on any subject with.
anyone intelligently.
i felt the schooling of the wt had.
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WontLeave
Actually, in my experience, being among JWs will make anyone feel that much smarter. It's similar to the saying "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king." The problem with that saying is that the one-eyed man would be different and instead of being king, he'd more likely be killed.
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The trouble with Christianity. TRINITY.
by whereami ingotta love pat.. "ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions.
ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity.
it is the mere abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of jesus.
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WontLeave
Seroiusly, TTWSYF?
How about a specific example, after all, I should be able to drive a car through your examples, right?
Did you just land on this planet? Go back a few pages and you'll drown in the scriptural examples.
Trinitarians can see the Trinity in a shopping list. It's quickly becoming clear why the Trinity is such a popular doctrine: It's a "faith" doctrine that has been adopted as a rite of passage by "true Christians". The Emperor's New Clothes of dogma, wherein belief indicates faith and revelation of Holy Spirit. If you don't see it, you're a "false Christian", "damned", or you "don't get it". It's not that Trinitarians can't see the Bible rejects the Trinity; they refuse to see the Bible rejects the Trinity, because that will take away (what they perceive is) everything they've worked so hard to achieve in their quest for salvation.
Just like JWs do mental backflips to convince themselves that the magisterium of the Governing Body is in line with Scripture, Trinitarians do the same to justify the Trinity. JWs are convinced you can't be saved unless you have faith in the "fds" (I put it in quotes, because there's no evidence the faithful and discreet slave of Matthew is anything akin to what JWs believe it is or that the Governing Body of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is what Jesus described), just like Trinitarians are convinced you must have faith in the Trinity to be saved.
It's the same attitude as the Inquisitions without the laws to allow coercion. People with strong beliefs in weak arguments get very upset when they're around people who don't buy into their beliefs. This is why cults use emotional tactics, separatism, and elitism to oust dissenters and Trinitarians use fear: Imprisonment, torture, death, threats of Hellfire. Their (speaking of all religions with fantasy doctrines) "proof" only exists in their own eyes, because of what they've been brainwashed to see, when they read "proof texts". They cherry-pick Bible translations that support their pet belief and call others "biased", cherry-pick verses, cherry-pick words within verses, and blatantly extrapolate beliefs which aren't there in most cases.
Trinitarians can't be reasoned with, because the Trinity belief isn't a rational one, but an emotional one. Arguing this doctrine is like arguing with someone who insists blue is the best color. Nobody is ever going to convince someone a belief they strongly choose to hold is false or even unprovable. In their minds, it's a slam-dunk and you just don't see it, because you aren't as enlightened. The strongest type of brainwashing is the kind one does to one's self and this is what Trinitarians and other cults do.
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Today's WT Study Stupidity About Df'ing
by metatron inin today's watchtower study, towards the end, you had one of those typical comments by a former df'ed witness expressing appreciation for being shunned.
these comments always remind me of a stalinist show trial in which the accused enthusiastically accepts being executed for the greater good (probably to save his family).. after this kind of nonsense is expressed, you will get a flurry of self righteous comments emphasizing how important it is to shun your disfellowshipped relatives, so that they can come back in the "truth".. oh, really?
do any of these people raising their hand realize that, if the "success" of disfellowshipping depends on your shunning, then the "repentant" person is "coming back in the truth" for the sake of their relatives -and not because of fearing jehovah !!!???.
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WontLeave
The Bible doesn't seem to indicate an elite group of people get to decide who is and isn't "good association". Even if someone is a member of the congregation, whether because there is not enough evidence to oust him or because his misdeeds aren't the type to get him disfellowshipped, that doesn't necessitate him being "good association". Conversely, disagreeing with some arbitrary beliefs promoted by old men in NY which are not well- (or at all) supported in Scripture doesn't necessitate him being "bad association".
The account of removing the man from the congregation in Corinth makes it clear that he was rebuked "by the majority" and not every person. Perhaps they were unaware of the situation and had no reason to shun the man. Without any first-hand information, how much sense does it make to shun someone based purely on the vague say-so of someone else; especially in a situation where some very flimsy reasons which are not supported in Scripture are used to remove people from the congregation?
Thinly disguised under the veil of "unrepentant", the reason people get disfellowshipped is because they don't grovel before the losers in cheap suits. Ultimately, as long as you pay lip-service to repentance and kiss the collective butts of the JC, you can molest children, have sex with animals, commit all sorts of crimes, abuse your wife and kids, etc. without a problem. On the other hand, if the elders call you in because someone has issue with the music you listen to or the clothes you wear and you tell them to mind their own business, that may start you down the road toward being DFed. The worst sin a JW can commit is failure to submit to the hierarchy they deny exists.
There are many in the Hall I see as "bad association" and most are elders. They are idolaters and that is an offence which is clearly identified in Scripture as someone with whom a Christian should not associate. Yet, these are not only allowed to remain in the congregation, but actually promoted to positions of authority over other members of the congregation, to demand similar wickedness from the laity. I believe the strongest statement that can be made would be to begin shunning these "brothers" who openly practice idolatry toward the Society, the Governing Body, and the literature. It would also keep with Scriptural admonition and not allow a double-standard.
Keep in mind, "anyone called a brother" is who shunning is for and once someone is DFed, they're not a brother anymore. Why is nobody shunning the only people they're supposed to, but only those outside, "while God judges those outside"?
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Ok I left the WBTS..... now what?? kingdom hall withdrawal
by sister x inso my last meeting was in december 2010. i was attending the english and spanish halls for a year and just english for 6 yrs..... lots of meetings.
i had only two friends at the hall and no boyfriend/husband.
i live in a town where i know no one, no family and when i became a witness i left the one job (air force) where i had people who cared about me..... now im alllllll alone!
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WontLeave
I didn't see sitting in a room full of people who obviously aren't paying any attention to a parade of guys praising the Governing Body as very worshipful to Jehovah. Being truly spiritual in the spiritual wasteland of the Kingdom Hall is frustrating. You're supposed to be surrounded by the most Bible-based, God-loving, true worshipers in the world and it's extremely anticlimactic when you really see what's going on there. I thought I was going to be among modern-day Boreans, but I was rudely awakened.
Read your Bible, now that you don't have the Watchtower tainting everything you see in it. Pray for understanding and don't forget your relationship with God does not have to go through a human organization. There is one mediator between God and men. No matter how they try to spin it and take Jesus away from you, for themselves, there is still only one mediator, which precludes them from being between you and your Heavenly Father.
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Not at Homes
by Bungi Bill indo the jws still emphasize following up on "not at homes":.
making "every effort" (or any effort at all) to contact all persons in their "territory"?.
this last month, april, was supposed to be a time of extra effort on their part.
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WontLeave
I tried so hard to get some people together in the evenings. Was not going to happen. It's all about numbers and the vast majority that I saw really didn't want to encounter anyone at the door. A few times, a buddy of mine and I would stay out for a long day and start getting people at home in the mid-afternoons. We'd get so much interest, because these people hadn't seen a Witness in ages. Nobody was interested, because that wasn't the official JW preaching day. I don't understand the mentality of the cult mindset, where every step of their lives is laid out for them and they won't make any adjustments for real-life situations.
Actually, every NH is a 5-minute break. The worst for milking the clock at empty houses I've ever seen are the very Society-worshiping elders I can't stand. The hypocritical whitewashed graves they are; making appearances, making numbers, accomplishing nothing. This is a typical conversation between me and the elder I hate most of all at my Hall:
Me: I don't think anyone lives here. The grass is 2 feet high and the windows are boarded up.
Bro Dillhole: Well, ring the bell.
Me: The bell doesn't work. I pointed out earlier, the power company took the meter. Look.
Bro Dillhole: Well, knock loud. Maybe they're out back.
Me: There is nobody here. A family of raccoons has built a home in the mailbox. Can we go?
Bro Dillhole: Let's give them time to get to the door. Maybe they're elderly.
Me: Didn't Paul say to be at this urgently?
Bro Dillhole: It isn't a race. We have to be sure to reach everyone.
Me: But we can't do that at empty houses. I'm pretty sure the sun-yellowed eviction notice on the door indicates there's nobody here.
Bro Dillhole: Look out. I'll knock if you won't.
Me: (Sigh)
The really sad part is, I'm sure he's under the impression he's "training" me in my ministry.
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Why is sex suddenly pure and holy after you receive a marriage certificate?
by doubtful in...but gross and detestable any time before marriage.
if a witness couple who are engaged to one another, decide to express their love toward each other by engaging in sexual intercourse just weeks or even days before they're officially married, they are considered to be loathsome, unclean people.
the witness girl would be seen by others in the hall as a dirty little whore...and the guy would just be thought of as a horny young man who couldn't keep it in his pants.
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WontLeave
usury
Yeah. Not quite the word I meant, but I was in a rush. The closest I can really think of is "imposition", right now.
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Why is sex suddenly pure and holy after you receive a marriage certificate?
by doubtful in...but gross and detestable any time before marriage.
if a witness couple who are engaged to one another, decide to express their love toward each other by engaging in sexual intercourse just weeks or even days before they're officially married, they are considered to be loathsome, unclean people.
the witness girl would be seen by others in the hall as a dirty little whore...and the guy would just be thought of as a horny young man who couldn't keep it in his pants.
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WontLeave
If you'd experienced sex from the perspective of a JW woman, you'd probably understand their negativity toward it. I've heard horror stories from sisters of their one-sided sex life and how their husbands' sick interpretation of "headship" and "submission" mean he's getting whatever he wants and she's getting squat. If your only experience with sex is selfishness, degradation, and usury, you might think it would be horrible to do it with anyone you don't absolutely have to. The very idea of wanting to have sex with a man is repulsive to them, because they don't want to have sex with their own husbands, but feel it's their duty. JW sex isn't for the women, but only for the men.
When their little girl moves in with some "worldly" guy, all that's going on in JW mom's mind is voluntary prison rape. What kind of sicko is her daughter to want that?