Count me as a skeptic
Vanderhoven7
JoinedPosts by Vanderhoven7
-
23
New York Times: ‘People Would Be So Receptive Right Now, and We Can’t Knock on Doors.’
by AndersonsInfo inhttps://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/19/us/politics/coronavirus-jehovahs-witnesses.html.
the pandemic has put a stop to the activities of one of the nation’s most visible religious groups, jehovah’s witnesses.. read more: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/19/us/politics/coronavirus-jehovahs-witnesses.html.
-
-
-
-
-
Vanderhoven7
Nope
Wording similar to a Kingdom song book hymn perhaps?
-
2
Howdy heretics!
by Beth Sarim ini don't know if anybody here follows the 'goatlike personality' channel on youtube.
but he very recently did a very recent rebuttal of april 2020 jw broadcasting.
loved it.
-
-
-
656
Covid-19 (Coronavirus) - Status Update Thread
by Simon inthis topic is to focus on status updates & advice (no opinion or politics please).. status.
latest status is that it's serious, probably isn't going to be contained and most large companies are making contingency plans, cancelling large events etc... which i don't think would happen if it was just people being alarmist.
the incubation period means it may have already spread further and infected many more people than are currently known, so expect jumps in the numbers over the coming days and weeks.. tracking.
-
-
Vanderhoven7
Pandemic Comparison: Probability and Number of De…: https://youtu.be/v743pmwuPIY
-
656
Covid-19 (Coronavirus) - Status Update Thread
by Simon inthis topic is to focus on status updates & advice (no opinion or politics please).. status.
latest status is that it's serious, probably isn't going to be contained and most large companies are making contingency plans, cancelling large events etc... which i don't think would happen if it was just people being alarmist.
the incubation period means it may have already spread further and infected many more people than are currently known, so expect jumps in the numbers over the coming days and weeks.. tracking.
-
-
Vanderhoven7
The virus, which apparently is not alive, is covered with a thin layer of fat. The best way to deal with the virus on your hands is to wash with hot soapy water. The heat melts the fat and the soap eliminates the threat....according to a study reported by John Hopkins University.
-
48
Does prophesy negate free will?
by Tim207 innot sure if this is in the right subject but here it goes.
i’ve asked this question to a few elders and bethelites but they don’t seem to understand or like the question.
to start off we have to agree that jehovah is all powerful.
-
-
Vanderhoven7
Another similar question is: Does God's absolute foreknowledge negate free will.
If God was causing your actions and reactions, then the answer of course is, "Yes".
If not, you do have at least a measure of free will.
-
57
Remember the Revelation book?
by wozza ini recall when it was released ,that's when i was a drone, how excited i felt at the prospect of reading it and formulating ways to sell it at the homes in my area.. i thought, finally a book to explain the last book in the bible and indeed one that the churches seemed to want to leave alone!.
i sold quite a few probably because of my enthusiasm and can still remember clearly the first day when i went knocking on doors with it ,and it's been decades since.. but over time it lost it's shine and my mind started to question the explanations in it due to the scene of other things being changed in the jw beliefs.. do you remember they flogged that book so many times in the book studies even when it was found to have "newer light " eclipsing it!.
who else remembers the printed pages with the official corrections to insert into the book ,so many that the book collapsed to be of no relevance anymore really.....what an embarrassment!.
-
-
Vanderhoven7
Depends how you define success.
Last time an elder and a rank & file sister sat down with me, I explained what I could and couldn't accept as biblical. My 4 criteria
1. must have at least one scripture to support a teaching.
2. no subtractions, additions, changes in word meanings from that scripture or scriptures
3. no linking scriptures without clear grounds
4. must consider context, textual, situational and historical.
I then asked if they thought that using these criteria might help to reduce doctrinal error.
A definite maybe
I then asked if they knew the difference between exegesis and eisegesis. I gave them an example of eisegesis...putting modern names and dates into a parable.
Once eisegesis was clear I asked them to read and explain several of the primary catasstrophic verses from Revelation 8 concerning the blowing of the first of the 7 trumpets (no clue forthcoming)
Then I read from the Revelation book about Rutherford blowing the first trumpet in a speech given in Ohio in 1922 which allegedly caused this large scale destruction.
Silence, silence, silence...
Then I asked if it was possible that every doctrine that was unique to Jehovah's Witnesses was established by identical interpretive abuse. Examples include resurrection of Peter and Paul in the spring of 1918, rejection of Christendom in the fall, selection of the FDS in April of 1919 etc.
They were quiet, the elder seemingly quite humbled left unwilling to debate or even explore further examples of eisegesis with me.
I knew of course that they would never return.
I only used this strategy twice...both time JWs were unwilling or unable to respond.
Quite sad really
-
57
Remember the Revelation book?
by wozza ini recall when it was released ,that's when i was a drone, how excited i felt at the prospect of reading it and formulating ways to sell it at the homes in my area.. i thought, finally a book to explain the last book in the bible and indeed one that the churches seemed to want to leave alone!.
i sold quite a few probably because of my enthusiasm and can still remember clearly the first day when i went knocking on doors with it ,and it's been decades since.. but over time it lost it's shine and my mind started to question the explanations in it due to the scene of other things being changed in the jw beliefs.. do you remember they flogged that book so many times in the book studies even when it was found to have "newer light " eclipsing it!.
who else remembers the printed pages with the official corrections to insert into the book ,so many that the book collapsed to be of no relevance anymore really.....what an embarrassment!.
-
-
Vanderhoven7
I've used the Revelation book with JWs to illustrate the difference between sound interpretive practice and interpretive abuse; exegesis vs eisegesis. There are no comebacks.
-
12
144000 who’s idea first
by Tim207 inhello this is my first post although i’ve lingered on this site before.
i’m curious about a comment i read saying that rutherfords idea of only 144000 going to heaven was taken from the founder of the church friends of man.
i tried looking up this church but could not find information on when they started this belief.
-
-
Vanderhoven7
Hi Tim
"Does the Great Company receive life direct from God on the Spirit plane? Answer - Yes, they receive life direct in that they have been begotten of the Holy Spirit, and when they are begotten they are just the same way as the little flock, because we are called in the one hope of our calling....They therefore receive life on a spirit plane." Pastor Russel (What Pastor Russel Said p.297)
"...the great company class, born on the spirit plane, who are to be servants before the throne, like unto the angels...No one could be either of the little flock or of the great company class unless he is spirit-begotten." Watctower, 2/15/1918 p. 51
"Ezekiel was given a vision of a great and marvelous temple. That vision of Ezekiel concerning the temple has been a mystery for ages and generations, but now is due to be understood. The Scriptures and the physical facts both show that this prophecy was not due to be understood by God's people on earth until the year 1932. ...This picture shows the position of the great multitude. Ever and anon someone advances the conclusion that the great multitude will not be a spiritual class. The prophecy of Ezekiel shows that such conclusion is erroneous. The fact that their position is seven steps higher than the outside shows that they must be made spirit creatures." Rutherford (Vindication -book III p 204)
Then a Reversal in the Channel
In a stirring talk on “The Great Multitude,” delivered to about 20,000 conventioners, (in 1935) J. F. Rutherford presented Scriptural proof that the modern-day “other sheep” are identical with that “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9. (John 10:16) At the climax of this talk, the speaker asked: “Will all those who have the hope of living forever on the earth please stand?” As a large part of the audience stood up, Rutherford declared: “Behold! The great multitude!” There was a hush, followed by loud cheering. On the following day, 840 new Witnesses of Jehovah were baptized, most of these professing to be of the great crowd.” The Watchtower May 1, 2001 pp.14-15 “Behold! The Great Crowd
“In 1935 the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9-15 was understood to be made up of “other sheep,” Christians with an earthly hope, who would appear on the world scene in “the last days” and who as a group would survive Armageddon. (John 10:16; 2 Timothy 3:1; Revelation 21:3, 4) After that year, the thrust of the disciple-making work turned to the gathering in of the great crowd. Hence, especially after 1966 it was believed that the heavenly call ceased in 1935. This seemed to be confirmed when almost all who were baptized after 1935 felt that they had the earthly hope. Thereafter, any called to the heavenly hope were believed to be replacements for anointed Christians who had proved unfaithful. Watchtower May 1, 2007 p. 30-31.
"Jehovah never makes any mistakes. Where the student relies upon man, he is certain to be led into difficulties. J. F. Rutherford (Prophecy pp.67,68)
- Were Jehovah's Witnesses relying on man?
- Was the prophesy, that was not really understood until 1932, wrong in 1935? (This is when Rutherford changed his mind about the destiny of the "Great Crowd".)
"Men not only contradict God, they contradict one another. How can they be reliable guides..." (Awake, Mar. 22,63)
-
33
Are We Living In The Last Days?
by Vanderhoven7 injust received this note out of the blue from a pimi jw.
how would you respond?.
hi vander,.
-
-
Vanderhoven7
Yes, good one 1234. I like the serious approach you use too Ding.