I was thinking about the first Bible discussions I had with my JW friend where she got into Old Testament scriptures, etc. It just dawned on me that she might have left an open door. At one point, she said, "I would love to do a secular study of these topics." This was a spark of curiosity that I think is healthy. Although I doubt she would take the initiative to go so far as to enroll in a university, and of course the JW thing is messing with her mind, I was still wondering if people here could recommend a good & reputable starting point for reading about ancient history to give her some perspective on how the Bible fits into the overall historical picture - like maybe something similar to the WT "Insight on the Scriptures" volumes, but of course more credible. She loves the Insight books because she thinks she's learning history. I would be willing to buy it for her as a gift. I realize that she could just go to the library, but I'd like to give her something to have on her bookshelf as a reminder.
InterestedOne
JoinedPosts by InterestedOne
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Help: Ancient history sources for my JW friend - recommendations?
by InterestedOne ini was thinking about the first bible discussions i had with my jw friend where she got into old testament scriptures, etc.
it just dawned on me that she might have left an open door.
at one point, she said, "i would love to do a secular study of these topics.
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InterestedOne
looloo - They will "harmonize" the things Jesus said about judging with the things in Paul's letters about "quit mixing in company," etc. I imagine it would go something like: Did Jesus mean we shouldn't differentiate between who was doing right & who was doing wrong? Not at all. . . puke.
Also, I think the "cast the first stone" account is considered questionable by some Bible scholars. Of course JW's would be quick to point that out as it removes one more thing from the case against their policy.
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InterestedOne
When I asked my handler about it, he said what nugget said and went further. He said how could the df'd person be so cruel as to bring this hardship on the JW's.
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How to respond if JW turns the tables re: justified deception b/c of mind control
by InterestedOne ini'm reading the example in combatting cult mind control where the parents deceive their cult-indoctrinated son into going to his grandmother's house, not telling him they have a counselor and former cult member waiting to talk with him.. when the son is angry with them for deceiving him, they justify it by pointing out that because he was under mind control, they knew from his previous refusals to talk with former members or examine critical information, that he would have refused to talk with the counselor and former member if he knew their intentions.. a jw could turn the tables on this.
they could justify their use of deception because since they believe the outside world is under mind control by satan, people would refuse to talk with them if they knew the whole story up front.. is there any way to respond to this?.
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InterestedOne
Outlaw - I asked my handler that, and he used the examples in the Insight books where you have Biblical uses of deception to preserve God's interests (Rahab, Jesus, etc.). When I gave him Webster's straightforward definition of "lie" as compared to the WT definition which adds the qualifier "entitled to know the truth," he said that's a problem for Webster. According to my handler, the Bible has it's own definition of "lie" like when it says God hates liars, or liars will not enter the kingdom, etc. To him, the Biblical definition of lie requires being malicious, but if you have the person's best interests in mind - which to him means leading the person to convert to the JW cult - then supposedly the Bible gives you some leeway.
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How to respond if JW turns the tables re: justified deception b/c of mind control
by InterestedOne ini'm reading the example in combatting cult mind control where the parents deceive their cult-indoctrinated son into going to his grandmother's house, not telling him they have a counselor and former cult member waiting to talk with him.. when the son is angry with them for deceiving him, they justify it by pointing out that because he was under mind control, they knew from his previous refusals to talk with former members or examine critical information, that he would have refused to talk with the counselor and former member if he knew their intentions.. a jw could turn the tables on this.
they could justify their use of deception because since they believe the outside world is under mind control by satan, people would refuse to talk with them if they knew the whole story up front.. is there any way to respond to this?.
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InterestedOne
I'm reading the example in Combatting Cult Mind Control where the parents deceive their cult-indoctrinated son into going to his grandmother's house, not telling him they have a counselor and former cult member waiting to talk with him.
When the son is angry with them for deceiving him, they justify it by pointing out that because he was under mind control, they knew from his previous refusals to talk with former members or examine critical information, that he would have refused to talk with the counselor and former member if he knew their intentions.
A JW could turn the tables on this. They could justify their use of deception because since they believe the outside world is under mind control by satan, people would refuse to talk with them if they knew the whole story up front.
Is there any way to respond to this?
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NWT Foreword in other languages
by InterestedOne ini was wondering what the foreword says in non-english nwt versions.
the jw's boast about how the nwt is directly from the original languages, but that is only for english.
when it comes to other languages, jw's translate from the english nwt into the other language, which makes it one step removed.
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InterestedOne
3. I would have no trouble if the Watchtower told me that old Greek is very different from modern Greek, and that things need clarification. Much as, for example, the Canterbury Tales or Beowulf are not like modern English. No problem here.
That is definitely the case. Biblical Greek is different from modern Greek. The Westcott and Hort is known as a "master text." There is another one called Nestle. As I understand it, a "master text" is a compilation of all the various fragments and manuscripts that have been discovered, and the compiler does the best he/she can to resolve conflicts and come up with a general working text to translate from.
I only speak English. However, as soon as anyone gets into reading the Bible, they run into this problem of the fact that it was written in ancient languages. It makes you more aware of different languages and cautious about what translators do. The NWT looks like a perfect example of something fishy going on. Going from original language to English and then from English to other modern target languages seems bad to me, and I was wondering how they explain this to the target language speakers. If I were a native Spanish speaker, I would ask why they went to English first. If they want to provide me with a Spanish translation, why not put together a team of scholars to work from the original to Spanish?
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NWT Foreword in other languages
by InterestedOne ini was wondering what the foreword says in non-english nwt versions.
the jw's boast about how the nwt is directly from the original languages, but that is only for english.
when it comes to other languages, jw's translate from the english nwt into the other language, which makes it one step removed.
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InterestedOne
dgp - It looks like they originally published a Greek version of the just the "Christian Bible" or New Testament in 1993. Then the next sentence is referring to "this edition" which is probably the entire Bible - Old Testament and New Testament. The Old Testament is referred to by the JW's as the "Hebrew Scriptures," but the original writings involved Hebrew and Aramaic. I think they are saying this new updated edition contains a modern Greek version of the Old Testament (called the Hebrew-Aramaic Scriptures by JW's) as well as a revised version of the 1993 New Testament they had previously published in modern Greek. Ultimately, from the next sentence, it looks like it is all based on the 1984 English NWT.
Sorry if you already understood all that. I agree with you that it seems ridiculous that they would translate from the original languages to English and then from English to the modern target language. You'd think a translator would work from the original to the target without English as an intermediate. Granted, I don't know anything about translation, but at first glance it seems ridiculous.
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NWT Foreword in other languages
by InterestedOne ini was wondering what the foreword says in non-english nwt versions.
the jw's boast about how the nwt is directly from the original languages, but that is only for english.
when it comes to other languages, jw's translate from the english nwt into the other language, which makes it one step removed.
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InterestedOne
The translation is your fault!!
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NWT Foreword in other languages
by InterestedOne ini was wondering what the foreword says in non-english nwt versions.
the jw's boast about how the nwt is directly from the original languages, but that is only for english.
when it comes to other languages, jw's translate from the english nwt into the other language, which makes it one step removed.
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InterestedOne
I was wondering what the Foreword says in non-English NWT versions. The JW's boast about how the NWT is directly from the original languages, but that is only for English. When it comes to other languages, JW's translate from the English NWT into the other language, which makes it one step removed. Kind of like if you used the Latin Vulgate. I was wondering about how they handle this in the Foreword of the other language versions. For example, could someone who speaks, say, Spanish and English post an English translation of the Spanish NWT Foreword?
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Is there anything they can't spin?
by InterestedOne ini've been finding that jw's use clever words to slip out of anything.
case in point, the shunning statement from the interview.
as another example, i tried to ask my study conductor the following: "if a person accepts a whole blood transfusion, will they be disfellowshipped?
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InterestedOne
Yes Black Sheep & Wobble. I just had one of these exchanges with my study conductor over email, and I am learning my lesson about how they redirect the conversation. It started with him pointing out in the latest yearbook where they talk about how credible the writing department is. Specifically he noted how they no longer use certain quotes like from Gandhi or Newton because they found the quotes lack supporting evidence. My natural question was, "why did they publish the quotes in the first place?" Did they have solid evidence corroborated by the scholarly community of the world at the time, or were the quotes always suspect? If they were always suspect, is the yearbook saying their original publication of the quotes was the result of inadequate research? I pressed further and asked if WT readers at the time were expected to accept the information as credible and not question it because they would be considered disloyal? He responded by asking where in my Bible study or in the meetings I would have gotten the idea that questioning WT information would be considered disloyal. That put me in a position of having to dig up WT articles that indicate this mentality. Of course he analyzed the articles word for word to show that there was nothing in them that supported the idea I had about questioning the WT & disloyalty.
Notice I originally asked if the WT had done poor research in the first place and if WT readers were expected to accept it anyway. He turned it into asking me to show him where I would have gotten that idea. Then he turned it into a parsing exercise. Finally he said I was misinterpreting the WT articles I showed him.