Posts by aqwsed12345

posted

62
Ten reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses have the true religion (plus a bonus one)
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
thinking back when i was a true believer these are probably the top ten reasons why i believed jws are the true religion.

1. they show love among themselves by not going to war.

not killing your fellow believers in any circumstances, including war, would seem to be a very basic requirement for true christianity.
aqwsed12345
Refutation of JW Arguments
1. They show love among themselves by not going to war.
  Refutation: While it’s true that JWs refuse to participate in war, this alone does not validate their claim to being the true religion. Pacifism is practiced by other Christian groups as well (e.g., Quakers, Mennonites). More importantly, Christian teaching acknowledges the complexity of moral decisions, including just war theory, which holds that under certain conditions, armed defense may be morally justified (e.g., to protect the innocent). The Catholic Church has always upheld peace as a core value but also recognizes the need to address the reality of injustice, oppression, and evil in the world.
2. They honor Jehovah’s name by using it and giving it prominence.
  Refutation: The use of “Jehovah” as God's name is not the exclusive mark of true Christianity. The pronunciation “Jehovah” is a relatively modern adaptation, and scholars generally agree that the original pronunciation was closer to “Yahweh.” What’s important is not merely using the name but living out God's will and message. The Catholic Church, while traditionally using “Lord” or “God” in liturgical settings, emphasizes a deep, personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate, rather than focusing on specific linguistic forms.
  The Bible uses a variety of names and titles for God, such as Elohim, El Shaddai, Adonai, and Theos (Greek for "God"). Jesus Himself referred to God most often as Father (John 17:1), emphasizing a personal relationship with God rather than focusing on a particular name. If simply using the name "Jehovah" were the key to being the true religion, we would expect the New Testament writers, including Jesus and the apostles, to emphasize the use of this name exclusively. However, they do not.
  If using God’s name in a specific form were essential to true worship, it is curious that the New Testament does not contain the Tetragrammaton (YHWH). The New Testament writers used "Kyrios" (Greek for "Lord") when referring to God, reflecting the Greek-speaking context in which they wrote. Even when quoting Old Testament passages that originally contained the Tetragrammaton, they used "Lord" rather than "YHWH."
  Many Christian denominations, including Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant traditions, honor God deeply without using the specific name "Jehovah." They focus on faith in Christ, the sacraments, good works, and a personal relationship with God. To claim that only one group is the "true religion" based solely on the use of a specific name dismisses the profound faith and devotion found across a wide spectrum of Christian belief.
3. They reject the post-biblical teaching of the Trinity.
  Refutation: The doctrine of the Trinity is rooted in Scripture and was developed through centuries of theological reflection and Church councils (such as Nicaea in 325 AD), where early Christians sought to express the mystery of God revealed in Christ. While the word “Trinity” is not in the Bible, the concept is derived from biblical passages (e.g., Matthew 28:19, John 1:1-14, 2 Corinthians 13:14) that affirm the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as distinct persons within one Godhead. JWs' rejection of the Trinity distances them from the historical Christian faith that was universally recognized from the earliest councils.
4. They teach the truth about who Jesus is as God’s firstborn and his loyal servant.
  Refutation: JWs deny the full divinity of Christ, reducing him to a created being. This belief contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture that Christ is both fully divine and fully human (John 1:1-14, Colossians 2:9, Hebrews 1:3). The Council of Nicaea affirmed that Jesus is "of one substance with the Father," refuting the Arian heresy, which also tried to subordinate Christ to a created status. Catholic teaching upholds the orthodox understanding of Christ as co-eternal and co-equal with the Father, which is essential for the doctrine of salvation.
5. They point to God’s kingdom as the only hope for mankind and avoid politics or social movements.
  Refutation: While JWs avoid political involvement, this stance is overly simplistic. Christians are called to engage with the world to promote justice, mercy, and the common good. The Catholic Church teaches that Christians must work for the transformation of society in line with Gospel values, which sometimes involves engagement in social and political issues. The Church, following Christ’s example, calls for both spiritual conversion and action in the world to alleviate suffering, promote peace, and uphold human dignity (e.g., Catholic Social Teaching).
6. They preach and publish in more languages than any other group.
  Refutation: While the worldwide reach of JWs is notable, it is not unique to them. The Catholic Church, being the largest Christian body in the world, also engages in extensive missionary work, translating the Bible and teaching materials into numerous languages. Furthermore, Catholicism has a universal presence in nearly every country, and the Catholic Church has long been a leader in education, healthcare, and social services, far surpassing any other religious organization in terms of global influence and reach.
  The number of languages in which a religious group preaches or publishes material is not a valid measure of truth or divine favor. Many religious organizations and secular institutions operate in numerous languages across the globe, but that doesn't automatically make them the bearers of ultimate truth.
  
  Various religious and non-religious organizations operate in multiple languages. The Roman Catholic Church, for example, has global reach and publishes material in many languages, including Bibles, catechisms, and papal encyclicals. Missionary organizations from various Christian denominations also translate and preach in hundreds of languages worldwide, aiming to spread their message.
  
  Similarly, multinational corporations like Google or the United Nations function in many languages across the world, facilitating communication across diverse populations. This global scope does not imply that they hold any religious truth; it simply indicates organizational capacity.
  
  Nowhere in the Bible is the scope of language translation mentioned as a marker for identifying the true faith. Truth in religious practice is associated with following Christ's teachings, living a life of love, and upholding sound doctrine—not with the quantity of languages in which materials are distributed. The early church, for instance, was small and localized, yet was recognized by its faithfulness to Christ's teachings, not by the number of languages it spoke.
7. Their founder Russell rediscovered basic Bible truths.
  Refutation: Charles Taze Russell’s interpretations of Scripture diverge significantly from historic Christian beliefs. His teachings, such as the denial of Christ’s divinity and the rejection of the Trinity, were not “rediscoveries” but rather new interpretations that departed from orthodox Christian doctrine. The early Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, faithfully transmitted the teachings of Christ and the apostles, which were preserved through Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Russell’s reinterpretations represent a break from this continuity, rather than a return to biblical truth.
  The claim that Russell rediscovered "basic Bible truths" assumes that true Christianity had been "lost" or "corrupted" for almost 1900 years, until Russell’s teachings. This idea contradicts Jesus' promise that His Church would endure throughout history. In Matthew 16:18, Jesus said, “The gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” This indicates that the Church founded by Christ would not be overcome by error or cease to exist. Similarly, Matthew 28:20 records Jesus saying, “I am with you always, to the end of the age.” This suggests that true Christianity would never completely disappear, nor would it require "rediscovery."
  
  Galatians 1:8-9 strongly warns against the acceptance of any "other gospel" than the one initially preached by the apostles. If Christianity had indeed been corrupted for nearly two millennia, it would imply that Christ’s own Church had failed, which is inconsistent with Christ's promise to preserve His Church. Russell's new teachings—such as denying the Trinity, the physical resurrection of Jesus, and the eternal punishment of the wicked—represent significant deviations from the historic Christian faith taught by the apostles and upheld for centuries.
  
  Early Christianity, as seen in the New Testament, relied on the authority of the apostles and their successors. Jesus granted Peter and the apostles the authority to lead His Church (Matthew 16:18-19; John 20:21-23). This authority has been passed down through apostolic succession, ensuring continuity in teaching and practice. Russell did not claim apostolic authority; he interpreted Scripture on his own, forming teachings contrary to the consensus of historic Christian doctrine.
  
  Many of the teachings introduced by Russell and later by the Watchtower Society have evolved or been revised over time. Predictions about specific dates for the end of the world (e.g., 1914, 1925, 1975) have repeatedly been shown to be false, causing the organization to shift its interpretations. Deuteronomy 18:20-22 warns that a prophet whose predictions do not come to pass is not to be trusted. This inconsistency raises serious questions about the validity of Russell's teachings as "rediscovered truths."
  
  The core doctrines of Christianity—such as the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, and the resurrection—have been consistently taught from the time of the apostles through the early Church Fathers and throughout Church history. These doctrines are not later innovations but are rooted in Scripture and affirmed by the early Christian councils. Russell’s interpretations differ significantly from this historic consensus.
  
  While Russell may have brought attention to certain Bible topics, the claim that he "rediscovered" the true faith is historically and theologically problematic. The unbroken continuity of Christian doctrine from the apostles to the present, along with the clear warnings in Scripture about altering the gospel, suggests that true Christianity did not disappear after the apostles but has been faithfully transmitted throughout history. The Church that Jesus founded has always been present, preserving the faith as it was once delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3).
8. JWs have grown from a small group to a global movement.
  Refutation: Growth in numbers does not equate to truth. Many religious movements, some of which hold conflicting beliefs, have experienced significant growth. The Catholic Church, however, has existed since the time of Christ, spreading throughout the world despite persecution and division. Its endurance over two millennia, along with its ability to maintain doctrinal consistency and unity, is a testament to its divine foundation.
  The growth of a religious movement does not serve as evidence that it is divinely ordained or the bearer of religious truth. There are numerous examples of religious and secular movements that have grown significantly, but that does not prove that they are the "true religion."
  
  Islam, for example, has grown rapidly over the centuries and is now one of the largest religions in the world. Similarly, the Latter-day Saints (Mormons) have expanded from a small group to a global movement. Even secular movements like Communism gained significant global traction in the 20th century. Growth alone is not a reliable indicator of divine favor or truth.
  
  Jesus himself emphasized that the path to salvation would be narrow, and relatively few would find it (Matthew 7:13-14). Moreover, many of the early Christian communities were small and faced persecution; their faithfulness, not their size or expansion, was what mattered. Additionally, history is filled with examples of heretical movements that attracted large followings but did not adhere to biblical truth.
  
  Many organizations can grow rapidly due to various factors like persuasive recruitment strategies, high birth rates, or organizational policies that encourage constant expansion. This can happen regardless of the truthfulness of the belief system. Growth and numerical success can often reflect human organizational skill rather than divine endorsement.
  
  Preaching in many languages and rapid growth are not unique or divinely mandated markers of religious truth. The Bible emphasizes the importance of sound doctrine, adherence to Christ’s teachings, and the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) as true indicators of faithfulness to God. Therefore, these two factors alone cannot be used to conclusively prove that Jehovah's Witnesses are the true religion. Religious truth should be evaluated based on doctrinal fidelity to scripture, historical continuity, and the overall fruits of the religious community, rather than the number of languages in which it operates or the scale of its growth.
9. Each JW leader was divinely chosen for their role in advancing God’s purpose.
  Refutation: The claim that JW leaders were divinely chosen to lead a restoration of true Christianity lacks historical and theological grounding. Unlike the succession of popes in the Catholic Church, which follows the apostolic tradition beginning with St. Peter, JW leadership has no continuity with the apostolic era. The papacy has consistently maintained the unity and authority of the Church through apostolic succession, which the early Church Fathers upheld as crucial for preserving orthodoxy and communion with the universal Church.
10. Their teaching about humans inheriting eternal life on earth makes more sense.
  Refutation: The JW belief in earthly paradise for a select group is a novel interpretation not supported by the fullness of Scripture. The Catholic Church teaches the resurrection of the body and life everlasting, which includes the new heavens and the new earth (Revelation 21). However, the ultimate hope of Christians is union with God in eternal life, which includes the beatific vision—seeing God face to face. The Catholic understanding of heaven as the ultimate fulfillment of human longing aligns with the teachings of Christ and the early Church.
  While Jehovah's Witnesses emphasize eternal life on a restored earth for a majority of humanity, traditional Christian beliefs point to both a heavenly and earthly reality. Revelation 21:1-4 speaks of a new heaven and new earth, suggesting a renewal of creation where God will dwell with humanity. However, it does not exclusively promise that all faithful followers will remain on earth.
  Jesus also speaks of an eternal reward in heaven. For instance, Matthew 5:12 says, "Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven," suggesting that heaven is the final destination for believers. Similarly, John 14:2-3 records Jesus promising his disciples, "I am going there to prepare a place for you," referring to heaven. These scriptures show that eternal life isn't restricted to the earthly realm but also extends to a heavenly inheritance for believers.
  Early Christianity focused more on the hope of the resurrection and eternal communion with God in heaven rather than a purely earthly destiny. The New Testament frequently speaks of the "kingdom of heaven" (e.g., Matthew 13:44), indicating a heavenly focus for salvation. The apostle Paul also emphasized that our citizenship is in heaven (e.g., Philippians 3:20) and that believers would be "with the Lord forever" (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 4:17). The idea of inheriting eternal life on earth isn't emphasized to the exclusion of heaven in early Christian teachings.
  Jehovah's Witnesses argue that passages like Psalm 37:29, which says, "The righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever," point to a separate "class" for an earthly destiny. However, this interpretation needs to be seen within the broader context of scripture, which also discusses heavenly rewards. The traditional Christian understanding of eternal life embraces both heaven and earth, especially after the final resurrection when heaven and earth are united in God's plan (as seen in Revelation 21).
  Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Christ’s kingdom will rule over the earth, with 144,000 going to heaven to reign with Christ and the rest of the faithful living on earth. However, many Christian scholars understand Revelation 20 and the reign of Christ in more symbolic terms, where heaven and earth become one (as in Revelation 21:1-4) rather than maintaining a strict division between the two realms.
11. Their teaching on God’s sovereignty and vindication makes sense of suffering.
  Refutation: The JW explanation for suffering focuses heavily on the vindication of God’s sovereignty, but it lacks the richness of Catholic theology, which addresses human suffering in light of the Cross. The Catholic Church teaches that suffering, while a result of the Fall, can be redemptive when united with Christ’s suffering. The Church offers a profound understanding of suffering, not as mere punishment or a test of sovereignty, but as a way to participate in Christ’s redemptive work (Colossians 1:24).
Why Roman Catholicism Is the True Faith
1. Apostolic Succession and Continuity: The Catholic Church traces its origins directly to Christ and the apostles. Through apostolic succession, the Church maintains a continuous, unbroken line of leadership from St. Peter to the present pope. This ensures the preservation of true doctrine and the authentic interpretation of Scripture.
2. The Eucharist and the Sacraments: The Catholic Church teaches the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, which is rooted in Scripture (John 6:51-58) and the teaching of the early Church Fathers. The sacraments are visible signs of God's grace, instituted by Christ, and are essential for the sanctification of believers.
3. Scripture and Tradition: Catholicism holds that the fullness of God’s revelation is found in both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. The Church is the divinely appointed guardian of this deposit of faith, ensuring that it is faithfully transmitted through the centuries (2 Thessalonians 2:15).
4. Magisterial Authority: The Catholic Church possesses the teaching authority (Magisterium) to interpret Scripture and Tradition. This authority, given by Christ to the apostles (Matthew 16:18-19; 18:18), safeguards the Church from error in matters of faith and morals.
5. Comprehensive Theology: Catholic teaching provides a coherent and comprehensive worldview that addresses all aspects of human life—spiritual, moral, intellectual, and social. Catholic theology offers deep insights into the nature of God, the purpose of human existence, and the meaning of suffering and salvation.
6. Historical Evidence: The Catholic Church has maintained doctrinal continuity and unity for over two millennia. The early Church Fathers, who lived closest to the apostles, bear witness to the Catholic understanding of key doctrines like the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, the Eucharist, and the authority of the Church.
In conclusion, while Jehovah’s Witnesses present arguments in favor of their beliefs, they fall short when examined in light of Scripture, history, and Christian theology. The Roman Catholic Church, with its apostolic foundation, sacramental life, and comprehensive teaching, remains the true Church that Christ established.
60
The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity
by aqwsed12345 in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.
aqwsed12345

According to the Protestants, the Catholic Church has gone astray, and moreover, it leads others astray, with Satan himself guiding it. Well, according to our faith, the Catholic Church has never changed concerning the teachings of Christ, and it can be clearly proven (with countless documents) that the current Catholic doctrine is completely identical to that of the Church before the Constantinian shift. Even the Protestants acknowledge this. It can also be proven that no congregation similar to 15th-century Protestantism existed earlier. They often refer to various heretical sects as the carriers of the "true gospel," but they merely select teachings similar to their own from these sects, while no Protestant church adheres to the full teachings of any of these sects (some of which are quite grotesque). Thus, essentially, a Protestant claims that the true gospel of Christ was corrupted shortly after the apostles (within a few years or decades), Satan—whom the Lord had just recently defeated—took over the main role and seduced all Christian believers.
A man finally came along one and a half millennia (!) later, by the name of Martin Luther, a hot-tempered, rebellious, psychologically proven disturbed and uncertain monk, who, based on “a divine revelation” (which, according to his own admission, he received while on the toilet), finally restored the teachings of Christ and thus reopened the gates of heaven. For one and a half millennia, for 1500 years, no one could be saved because they did not know Protestant teachings, they were “idolaters” and “pagans.” For 1500 years, Christ helplessly watched His church serve Satan, even though He promised that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Mt 16:18), and He said, "And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Mt 28:20), “And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—the Spirit of truth.” (Jn 14:16), “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand." (Jn 10:27-29). So just consider how likely all of this is.
Not only Catholics, but also Protestants and so-called "independent" historians are clear on the fact that Peter certainly went to Rome, established a Christian community (= founded a church), and also died a martyr's death there. This is not only confirmed by early Christian literary and historical records — since without exception all early Christian writers associate Peter with Rome — but also completely supported by archaeological research. In 1968, the tunnels beneath the main altar of St. Peter's Basilica were excavated, and indeed, there they found a tomb from the first century, sealed by a rock bearing the inscription "Peter is here." Even the bones inside have been examined, and it turned out that they belong to a man in his sixties, who died by crucifixion in the first century. Moreover, in cities Peter passed through on his way to Rome, many things preserve the memory of his presence. Despite all this, some Protestant fundamentalists do not believe (or do not want to believe) that Peter went to Rome, simply because, according to them, the Bible is silent on the matter. For them, only the text of the Bible can provide a sure point of reference, and only as they interpret it. In their view, if the Bible does not mention it, then it could not have happened; and it makes no difference that the Bible does not deny that Peter went to Rome.
Indeed, the Scriptures do not explicitly mention that "Peter went to Rome, founded a church, and thus became the first bishop of Rome, or the pope." The travels of no apostle are recounted in detail, and even of the most discussed, the journeys of Saint Paul, we do not have a complete picture, and we only learn of his death from tradition. The claim that "Paul wrote six letters from Rome between AD 60 and 65" is also not found in the Bible, though it is considered accepted by this "Bible Christian." This, for example, comes from Protestant tradition, which furthermore—according to at least 95% of biblical scholars—is not even true. Paul most likely wrote only one letter from Rome, the Second Letter to Timothy, while the others—thought by some to originate from his Roman imprisonment—were written during his imprisonment in Ephesus between 53 and 58 (Philippians, Colossians, Philemon, Ephesians), or before his arrest in Rome, on his third missionary journey in 63-64 (1 Timothy, Titus). In 1 Timothy, Peter is not mentioned because by then he had already died. Nor does he mention him in the Letter to the Romans because at the time of writing, Peter was not in Rome (more on this later). As an apostle, Saint Peter was continuously traveling—just like Paul—not only to evangelize or to care for the churches he had founded, but also because he was in danger. From the beginning, the leader of the new "sect" was persecuted, not only by the Jews but also by Roman authorities. Rome became the number one enemy of Christians, and this latter fact (confirmed by numerous Roman records) implies that the Bible speaks of Peter’s stay in Rome.
In the First Letter of Peter, the apostle writes, “She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark." (1 Peter 5:13). At this time, two places were named Babylon: the ancient, famous Mesopotamian city, frequently mentioned in the Old Testament, and a small Roman garrison in Egypt (Babylon Fossatum). However, by then, the ancient Babylon no longer existed, except as ruins, and was as insignificant a settlement as the Egyptian Babylon. What would Peter, the foremost apostle, have been doing in either of these small villages? Nothing, because these are not the places being referred to. The Book of Revelation frequently speaks of Babylon but consistently as a “great and mighty city,” which can be clearly identified with Rome (cf. 14:8; chs. 16-18) (and in one case, with Jerusalem). Independent ancient sources also confirm that “Babylon” was a code name among Christians, referring to Rome. Therefore, Peter wrote his first letter from “Babylon”, that is, from Rome. This is also confirmed by the Acts of the Apostles. It says that after Peter miraculously escaped from prison, he “went to another place” (Greek: "eis héteron topon") (Acts 12:17). Here, Peter did not wish to hide his destination from his brothers, but he did from the Roman authorities. Therefore, he used this Greek phrase, which refers to the Book of Ezekiel, specifically Ezekiel 12:13, where this exact phrase is used. From this, we know that the "other place" is Babylon, or Rome. This event occurred around AD 42, meaning Peter founded the Christian community there at that time, but he did not remain permanently, as by AD 48, he was in Jerusalem for the Apostolic Council.
Saint Paul wrote the Letter to the Romans between AD 55-57, and he does not greet Peter because Peter was not in the city at that time; he only returned there a few years after the letter was written, around AD 60. Although Peter was not in Rome, Paul indirectly alludes to him, writing: "It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation... This is why I have often been hindered from coming to you." (Romans 15:20.22).
If we combine the scriptural references with archaeological findings and early Christian records, we get a consistent picture where all elements support each other. However, if we reject Peter's founding of the church in Rome, we are merely following an unreasonable prejudice instead of reason. One can choose.
If you are seriously interested in the topic, here is a recommended read: Carsten Peter Thiede [a Protestant scholar]: Simon Peter: From Galilee to Rome (1988).
135
Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?
aqwsed12345
@FreeTheMasons
The claim that Jesus was resurrected as a "spirit creature" is a fundamental misunderstanding of the resurrection accounts in the New Testament. The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus was resurrected in a physical, glorified body, not as a spirit. In Luke 24:39, Jesus specifically invites His disciples to touch Him and see that He has flesh and bones. He goes on to say that a spirit does not have flesh and bones, thereby refuting the idea that He was a mere spirit. The glorified body Jesus had after His resurrection was capable of transcending physical limitations (like appearing in locked rooms), but it was still very much a physical body. This point is critical in Christian theology because it emphasizes the bodily resurrection of all believers (1 Corinthians 15:42-44), which does not involve a transformation into spirit beings.
The Bible consistently teaches that Jesus’ resurrection was a bodily resurrection, not merely spiritual. The New Testament emphasizes that Jesus' physical body was raised, not just his spirit:
- Luke 24:39: Jesus, appearing to his disciples after his resurrection, says, "Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." This is a direct statement where Jesus differentiates himself from a spirit, showing that he was resurrected with a physical body. He invites his disciples to touch him, proving he was not merely an immaterial spirit.
- John 20:27: Jesus tells Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Jesus’ resurrection body still had the wounds from his crucifixion, showing continuity with the body that was crucified, not a temporary or newly created body. Thomas is invited to physically touch these wounds, which a purely spiritual body could not have.
These accounts explicitly refute the idea that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit creature who only materialized a temporary body. He was truly resurrected in the same body that was crucified, glorified but still physical.
Jehovah’s Witnesses argue that Jesus materialized a human body temporarily to demonstrate his ability to do so. However, Scripture portrays the resurrection body as permanent, glorified but still continuous with the earthly body:
- Philippians 3:20-21: "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." This passage teaches that the resurrection body of Jesus is glorious, and it is the same kind of body that believers will receive. Jesus’ resurrection body is not just a temporary manifestation but a permanent transformation of his earthly body.
- Romans 8:11: "And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you." The resurrection of Jesus is directly connected to the resurrection of believers' physical bodies. This shows that the resurrection is a bodily event, not a spiritual transformation alone.
Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the 144,000 in Revelation will be resurrected similarly to Jesus, as spirit creatures at the end of the tribulation. However, this interpretation is speculative and not supported by the context of Revelation:
- Revelation 20:4-6 describes the first resurrection, which includes those who were martyred for their faith. It speaks of a bodily resurrection of believers to reign with Christ during the millennium. There is no suggestion in the text that this resurrection is a spiritual transformation or that these individuals are raised as spirit creatures.
- The Bible speaks of the general resurrection of the dead at the end of time, where both the righteous and unrighteous will be physically resurrected (cf. John 5:28-29, Acts 24:15). This demonstrates that resurrection in biblical teaching is always bodily—it is about the restoration and transformation of human bodies, not merely the elevation of a person to a spiritual existence.
Jehovah's Witnesses overlook the significance of the incarnation and its permanence. Jesus did not abandon his human nature after the resurrection; rather, he remains fully God and man: 1 Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus." This shows that Jesus retains his humanity after his ascension. He continues to be the man Christ Jesus, indicating that his resurrection body was not discarded or temporary.
Jehovah’s Witnesses suggest that the 144,000 will have witnesses to their resurrection similar to Jesus. However, Jesus' resurrection is presented in the Bible as a unique and pivotal event, and no other resurrection is portrayed in the same manner:
- Acts 1:9-11: When Jesus ascended, the disciples witnessed him go into heaven, and angels told them, "This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." This passage emphasizes that Jesus' return will be visible, just as his ascension was, reinforcing the idea that Jesus’ resurrection and ascension were bodily and not merely spiritual.
- There is no biblical support for the claim that the 144,000 will be resurrected as spirit creatures or that witnesses will observe their resurrection in the same way as they did Jesus’. Scripture teaches the resurrection of the body, and it is not restricted to the idea of purely spiritual resurrection.
The argument that the kingdom is not about rulership but a "family arrangement" that returns to the conditions of Eden is not supported by the broader scriptural understanding of the kingdom of God. The Bible consistently describes the kingdom as a reign and rulership (Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 22:29-30, Revelation 5:10). While it is true that the concept of the kingdom is meant to restore harmony between God and His creation, the Bible makes it clear that Christ and His followers will reign with Him (Revelation 20:4-6). The idea that the 144,000 have a special role in ruling with Christ is derived from a misreading of these passages, where the role of all believers is to share in the kingship of Christ.
The interpretation of "glory" as "love" is an oversimplification. While love is certainly a key aspect of Jesus' character, "glory" in biblical terms refers to the manifestation of divine power, majesty, and holiness (John 1:14; Romans 8:18). Jesus' glory was revealed not only in His humility and kindness but also in His divine authority, power, and eventual resurrection. Romans 8:17 says that believers will share in Christ's glory, which refers to their future glorified state, not merely love or service. This glory is not exclusive to a special group but applies to all believers who are united to Christ.
The claim that the 144,000 are firstfruits because they "are made perfect first" and will work between heaven and earth during the 1,000-year reign is speculative and not supported by a straightforward reading of the Bible. The idea of firstfruits in Scripture (e.g., James 1:18, Revelation 14:4) generally refers to those who are the first to receive the blessings of salvation, not to a special elite group that loses their humanity. Additionally, the idea that the 144,000 will "go back and forth between heaven and earth" is speculative and has no biblical basis. The Bible does not describe the saints in such a role. The teaching that the 144,000 will lose their human inheritance is contrary to the biblical promise of bodily resurrection and eternal life in a new heaven and new earth (Revelation 21:1-3). The entire body of believers will dwell with God in this renewed creation, not just a select few.
The analogy of birds and fish having different gifts to support the idea that the 144,000 have a different inheritance than the rest of humanity is flawed. The Bible teaches that all believers—those who trust in Christ—are co-heirs with Him (Romans 8:17). There is no indication of a two-tier system of salvation, where some believers receive a heavenly inheritance and others remain on earth in a lesser state. The notion that the 144,000 will receive a "different" inheritance contradicts the clear teaching of the New Testament that all believers will share in the same glory and inheritance (Colossians 3:23-24).
The claim that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit creature and merely materialized a temporary body to interact with his disciples is contradicted by biblical evidence. The New Testament clearly presents Jesus’ resurrection as bodily, with physical continuity between the body that was crucified and the body that was raised. This teaching extends to the resurrection of all believers, who will be raised in glorified physical bodies, not merely spiritual beings. The idea that the 144,000 will be resurrected as spirit creatures is speculative and lacks clear biblical foundation. The resurrection in Scripture is about the restoration and transformation of the physical body, not just the elevation of a person to a spiritual existence.
The biblical doctrine of resurrection and salvation affirms that all believers—whether Jew or Gentile, male or female—are united in Christ and share the same inheritance in the new creation. The idea of a select group becoming "spirit creatures" and ministering between heaven and earth lacks any solid biblical foundation. The 144,000 mentioned in Revelation should be understood symbolically as representing the complete and redeemed people of God, not a literal, exclusive group. Salvation and resurrection are not about being divided into different classes, but about being united with Christ and sharing in His glory, which includes a bodily resurrection and eternal life with God in the new heavens and new earth.
135
Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?
aqwsed12345
@FreeTheMasons
Have you even read my links?
To refute the idea that the 144,000 will be changed into "spirit creatures" and cease to be human, let's examine what the Bible actually teaches about salvation, resurrection, and the nature of humanity.
1. Biblical View of Resurrection: The Bible emphasizes the bodily resurrection, not transformation into spirit creatures. For instance, Jesus’ resurrection was physical, as demonstrated in Luke 24:39 where He says, "Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." Jesus was resurrected with a glorified body, which shows that being human is integral to the Christian hope, not something to be left behind. The Bible never states that those who are redeemed lose their human nature and become spirit beings. In fact, Philippians 3:21 emphasizes that Christ "will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body," reinforcing the idea of bodily glorification, not a disembodied spiritual state.
2. No "Spirit Class" Doctrine: The New Testament never mentions a class of humans who will become non-human, spirit creatures. The idea of a heavenly government coming down to earth in Revelation 21:2 is symbolic of God’s presence with His people. The Bible speaks of a "new heaven and new earth" (Revelation 21:1), indicating that the redeemed will inhabit a physical reality where they will live eternally, not as spirit creatures but as glorified humans.
3. Humanity as God's Image: Humanity was made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26), and there is no suggestion in the Bible that humans were intended to become anything other than human. The redemption of mankind through Jesus Christ is about restoring humanity to its intended glory, not transforming it into a different type of being. Romans 8:23 speaks of the "redemption of our bodies," which refers to the resurrection and glorification of human bodies, not their replacement by spiritual forms.
4. Misinterpretation of 144,000: The number 144,000 in Revelation is often interpreted symbolically to represent the completeness of God’s people, drawn from all tribes and nations, and there is no clear biblical indication that this group is non-human or different from others saved by Christ. Revelation 14:4 describes them as "firstfruits for God and the Lamb," but this refers to their dedication and special role, not to their becoming spirit beings. They remain part of God’s human creation.
5. Hebrews 1:14 describes angels as "ministering spirits," but there is no indication in Scripture that humans are ever intended to become like angels or lose their humanity.
In conclusion, the Bible teaches that human beings are meant to be redeemed, glorified, and live forever in a renewed creation, not transformed into spirit creatures. The concept of humans ceasing to be human contradicts biblical anthropology, where humanity is created in God’s image and destined for bodily resurrection, not spiritual disembodiment.
135
Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?
aqwsed12345
@FreeTheMasons
You should read these:
In Scripture, redemption is not merely about being saved from sin; it is a calling to participate in God's mission. When people are redeemed, they are set apart for God's purposes. For example:
- 1 Peter 2:9 says: “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.” This verse shows that redemption comes with a mission—to proclaim God's excellencies and participate in His work.
- Ephesians 2:10 adds: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” The redeemed are called to fulfill a specific role in God's plan by doing good works, a kind of "job assignment."
The idea that only the 144,000 are "assigned to a job" as rulers or priests in heaven, while others are merely "redeemed," misunderstands the broader biblical message of shared responsibility in God's kingdom.
- Both the 144,000 and the great multitude in Revelation are described as redeemed (Rev 7:14; Rev 14:4). While the 144,000 may have a specific role, this does not negate the fact that all who are redeemed share in the work of proclaiming God's kingdom.
- Revelation 7:9 describes the great multitude as standing before the throne and the Lamb, participating in worship and service to God. This implies they, too, have a role or function in God’s kingdom, even if it differs from the specific priestly role attributed to the 144,000.
The idea of a distinction between being "redeemed" and being "assigned to a job" is too rigid for the biblical narrative. In the Bible, all who are redeemed are called to serve:
- Matthew 28:18-20, the Great Commission, calls all disciples to go and make disciples of all nations. This is a task, a mission for all believers, not just a select group.
- Romans 12:4-8 speaks of different roles and gifts within the body of Christ, but emphasizes that every believer has a role to play in building up the church.
While it is true that specific roles are mentioned for the 144,000 in Revelation, the notion that only they are "assigned a job" oversimplifies the broader biblical teaching. Redemption always carries with it a calling to serve God, and this applies to all of God's people, not just a select few. The redeemed, whether part of the 144,000 or the great multitude, are called to actively participate in God's redemptive plan for the world. Therefore, the idea of dividing the redeemed into passive recipients and active workers does not hold up to a holistic reading of Scripture.
135
Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?
aqwsed12345
@FreeTheMasons
The argument that the number "144,000" must be taken literally based on examples of literal numbers in the Bible overlooks several key factors that suggest this number is, in fact, symbolic in the broader context of Revelation. Here are some points to consider in refuting the claim:
1. Symbolic Nature of Revelation
The Book of Revelation is widely recognized as a highly symbolic text, filled with allegory, metaphors, and imagery. While it is true that some numbers in the Bible are taken literally, Revelation is a genre of apocalyptic literature, where numbers often have symbolic meanings. For instance:
- The number 7 is used repeatedly throughout Revelation to symbolize completeness or perfection (seven seals, seven trumpets, seven churches).
- The number 12 represents the people of God, as seen in the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles. The number 144,000 (12 x 12 x 1,000) is likely symbolic of the completeness of God's people, encompassing both Old and New Covenant believers.
The highly symbolic nature of the surrounding text makes it more plausible that the number 144,000 is symbolic rather than literal.
2. Symbolism of the 12 Tribes and Their Inclusion
The number 144,000 is described as coming from the 12 tribes of Israel in Revelation 7:4-8. However, the list of tribes presented in this passage does not correspond exactly to the historical tribes of Israel. For example:
- The tribe of Dan is omitted.
- Joseph and Manasseh are included in a way that differs from traditional lists of the tribes.
This selective arrangement of tribes, combined with the symbolic use of 12, suggests that the 144,000 represents a spiritual "Israel" or the totality of God’s people, not a literal, ethnic Israelite group.
3. Use of Symbolic Numbers Elsewhere
The examples provided (such as Joseph's interpretation of Pharaoh's dreams or the number of stars in Joseph’s own dream) do involve literal numbers. However, these are specific contexts where the surrounding details suggest a literal interpretation. In contrast, Revelation's context, particularly in its apocalyptic framework, leans heavily into the symbolic use of numbers.
Even within the examples provided, the interpretation of certain symbols (like the "beasts" representing kingdoms) shows that numbers in symbolic visions can point to figurative truths rather than strict literalism.
4. The Meaning of "Firstfruits"
Revelation 14:4 refers to the 144,000 as "firstfruits." In biblical language, "firstfruits" often symbolically refer to a representative portion of a larger whole. The 144,000, as the "firstfruits," could be representative of the greater harvest of redeemed people from all nations, as described in the "great multitude" in Revelation 7:9. If the 144,000 were meant to represent only a small, literal group, it would be difficult to reconcile the concept of "firstfruits," which typically implies a larger total group.
5. The Great Crowd and the 144,000
Revelation 7:9 speaks of a "great crowd" that no one could number, from every nation, tribe, people, and language. This group is distinct from the 144,000 and is not limited in number. If one group is literal and numbered, while another is figurative and innumerable, this distinction makes more sense symbolically. Moreover, the great crowd is also depicted as sharing in the salvation of God, reinforcing the idea that salvation is not limited to a literal 144,000.
6. No Explicit Statement that the 144,000 is Literal
The argument claims that because the Bible does not explicitly say the 144,000 is symbolic, it must be literal. However, the Bible also does not say that other symbolic numbers, such as 7 or 12 in Revelation, are symbolic—they are understood as such because of their context. The lack of explicit labeling as "symbolic" is not a valid reason to interpret the number literally, especially given the broader use of symbolism throughout the book.
7. Historical and Theological Consensus
Many theologians and biblical scholars across Christian traditions understand the 144,000 to be symbolic. The number 144,000 is seen as representing the complete number of God's people, drawn from both Jews and Gentiles, throughout history. While Jehovah's Witnesses hold to a literal interpretation, the broader Christian tradition, both Catholic and Protestant, interprets this number symbolically.
Conclusion
While some numbers in the Bible are taken literally, the context of Revelation—and apocalyptic literature more broadly—suggests that the number 144,000 is symbolic. The argument that 144,000 must be literal because some numbers elsewhere in Scripture are literal fails to take into account the unique literary genre of Revelation, the symbolic meaning of numbers throughout the book, and the broader biblical context that emphasizes inclusivity in salvation. The idea of a limited, literal 144,000 ruling with Christ does not align with the overarching message of Revelation, which points to the fullness of God's people from all nations being redeemed.
60
The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity
by aqwsed12345 in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.
aqwsed12345

@FreeTheMasons
I have answered you in the other topic.
Btw. Haitian local customs have nothing to do with official Catholic doctrines and worship practices.
60
The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity
by aqwsed12345 in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.
aqwsed12345

Alexander Hislop's book The Two Babylons has long been a controversial and influential piece of anti-Catholic literature, particularly in certain Protestant and fundamentalist circles. Written in the 19th century, Hislop's central thesis is that Roman Catholicism is essentially a continuation of the ancient pagan religion of Babylon, which he claims is rooted in the worship of Nimrod and his wife Semiramis. Hislop contends that Catholic practices, symbols, and traditions are veiled forms of ancient Babylonian paganism. However, Hislop’s methodology, arguments, and conclusions have been widely discredited by modern scholars for their inaccuracies, leaps in logic, and the genetic fallacy they embody.
Methodological Flaws in Hislop’s Work
Hislop's approach in The Two Babylons can be characterized by several major methodological flaws. One of the most egregious is his reliance on cherry-picking and superficial parallels between Catholic practices and ancient pagan customs. Whenever he identifies any similarity, no matter how tenuous, Hislop jumps to the conclusion that the Catholic practice in question must be pagan in origin. This method is deeply flawed because it ignores the vast complexity of cultural and religious development. Hislop fails to recognize that similar customs can arise independently in different societies due to shared human experiences, rather than direct borrowing or influence. His central methodology, then, is predicated on the genetic fallacy—the erroneous assumption that the origin of something determines its current meaning or validity. Just because a Catholic symbol or practice may resemble something in ancient Babylon does not mean it is derived from or perpetuates that Babylonian tradition.
For instance, Hislop famously asserts that the Catholic use of round communion wafers is a direct adoption of the sun-worship symbolism from ancient Egypt, simply because both objects are circular. This is an obvious instance of false analogy, as round shapes are ubiquitous across many cultures and contexts, with no inherent religious meaning attached to them. Biblical manna, for example, is described as round in Exodus 16:14-15, yet Hislop does not consider this when condemning the use of round wafers as pagan.
In other cases, Hislop draws on dubious historical sources or misrepresents the sources he does cite. He often quotes historical records out of context, distorting their meaning to fit his predetermined conclusions. For example, Hislop connects the Egyptian goddess Isis and her son Horus with Semiramis and Tammuz, claiming that these figures share a direct lineage with later Catholic representations of Mary and Jesus. However, closer examination of Hislop’s references reveals that many of the sources he uses do not support these conclusions and are either mythological in nature or have been selectively quoted to bolster his argument.
Inventing Associations: Nimrod and Semiramis
Hislop's central thesis that the Catholic Church continues the worship of Nimrod and Semiramis rests on shaky historical foundations. Not only is there no credible evidence that Nimrod and Semiramis were worshipped as divine figures in the manner Hislop describes, but Semiramis herself is a legendary figure whose actual historical role is highly uncertain. She was likely a powerful Assyrian queen, but Hislop weaves a complex and speculative narrative around her, associating her with various goddesses from entirely different cultural traditions. He then proceeds to project these associations onto Catholic beliefs, creating a false genealogy of religious practices that have no historical basis. This process of creating connections between entirely unrelated figures and symbols forms the core of Hislop’s methodology. By treating mythology and folklore as historical fact, he constructs a speculative framework that lacks serious scholarly rigor.
The Genetic Fallacy in Hislop’s Argument
One of the most pervasive logical errors in The Two Babylons is the genetic fallacy, wherein Hislop assumes that the origins of an idea or practice determine its present-day meaning or significance. Hislop’s central argument is that because certain Catholic customs have superficial similarities to ancient pagan practices, these customs must be corrupt and pagan in nature. However, this is a flawed way of thinking. Cultural and religious practices evolve over time, often taking on entirely new meanings that are distinct from their origins. Even if some Catholic traditions did have roots in earlier cultural customs, this does not automatically invalidate them as Christian practices. To use an analogy, the use of the cross as a Christian symbol could be linked to earlier forms of crucifixion in the Roman Empire, but that does not mean the cross, as it is understood today, represents Roman execution methods.
Hislop’s argument ignores the possibility that some cultural forms or symbols could have been adopted and reinterpreted by Christianity in a way that is wholly consistent with Christian theology. For example, while Christmas may be celebrated on December 25th, which coincides with the Roman festival of Saturnalia, this does not mean that Christmas is inherently pagan. The Church may have chosen this date to provide a Christian alternative to a popular pagan festival, helping converts transition into the Christian faith. Hislop’s failure to account for such Christianization processes limits the credibility of his arguments.
Hislop’s Legacy in Jehovah’s Witness Theology
Hislop’s work, despite its lack of scholarly merit, has had a lasting impact on certain religious movements, most notably Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Watchtower Society has, for much of its history, adopted Hislop’s method of arguing that various religious traditions are “rooted” in paganism and are therefore false. Jehovah’s Witnesses frequently cite alleged “pagan origins” as a reason to reject various Christian customs, such as the celebration of Christmas or the use of the cross as a symbol of Christ’s sacrifice. By echoing Hislop’s claims, the Watchtower continues to perpetuate the genetic fallacy, implying that any practice with possible pagan origins is inherently invalid or tainted.
Whenever Jehovah’s Witnesses critique a religious tradition, whether it be the Catholic use of the cross or the celebration of birthdays, they often point back to these supposed pagan origins. This strategy of linking practices to ancient paganism is not only problematic because of its reliance on flawed historical analysis, but it also disregards the evolution and transformation of these practices within a Christian context. By refusing to acknowledge that symbols and customs can acquire new, legitimate meanings, the Watchtower Society’s approach effectively paints all non-Jehovah’s Witness religious practices with the same broad brush, as Hislop did with the Catholic Church.
Misunderstanding Analogy vs. Genealogy
One of the key flaws in Hislop's and Jehovah’s Witnesses' methodology is their failure to distinguish between analogy and genealogy. Just because two practices or symbols appear similar (analogy) does not mean one directly stems from the other (genealogy). For example, the use of candles in Catholic worship is often critiqued by Jehovah’s Witnesses because of their supposed connection to pagan rituals. However, candles have been used in countless cultures for various purposes, including purely practical ones such as providing light. The fact that pagans also used candles in their religious rituals does not mean that Catholic candle usage is derived from paganism. Hislop’s and the Watchtower Society’s tendency to make such connections overlooks the complexity of cultural transmission and religious symbolism.
Conclusion: The Enduring Influence of Flawed Scholarship
Hislop’s The Two Babylons remains influential among groups like Jehovah’s Witnesses, despite its many methodological flaws and erroneous conclusions. Hislop’s reliance on superficial similarities, genetic fallacies, and dubious historical sources provides a weak foundation for his sweeping claims about the Catholic Church and Christian practices. Unfortunately, his legacy persists in the form of the Watchtower Society’s continued reliance on the same flawed reasoning to critique religious customs they view as “pagan”. By perpetuating Hislop’s methodology, Jehovah’s Witnesses and other groups undermine their own credibility and fail to engage meaningfully with the historical and theological richness of Christian tradition. Instead, they rely on a form of historical revisionism that strips religious symbols and practices of their context, reducing them to mere echoes of a distant pagan past. This approach, while rhetorically powerful for those already predisposed to reject traditional Christianity, ultimately fails to stand up to serious scrutiny.
135
Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting
by slimboyfat in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?
aqwsed12345
1. "Men" as Symbolic: The description in Revelation 14:4 uses the Greek word παρθένοι (virgins) in its masculine form, which is often interpreted to mean literal men. However, as you've clarified, Witnesses do not believe the 144,000 are all male. If the term "virgins" is understood symbolically to include both men and women, then this suggests the description is not meant to be taken literally.
2. Virginity as Symbolic: The term "virgin" is used to indicate spiritual purity, not literal sexual chastity. This symbolic interpretation is broadly accepted among biblical scholars. In Revelation, virginity represents loyalty to Christ and separation from spiritual fornication (false worship). If this is symbolic, it further reinforces that the literal details of this group (such as gender and virginity) are symbolic, not factual.
3. 12 Tribes and the Number 12,000 as Symbolic: Revelation 7:4-8 describes the 144,000 as coming from 12,000 members of each of the 12 tribes of Israel. This, too, is widely understood as symbolic. The tribes listed in Revelation do not correspond exactly to the historical tribes of Israel. In fact, the tribe of Dan is omitted, and Joseph and Manasseh are added in a way that differs from traditional tribal listings. Scholars interpret these symbolic 12 tribes to represent the spiritual Israel, encompassing all of God's people, not literal Jews.
4. Israelites as Symbolic: If the description of the 12 tribes is symbolic and does not refer to literal Israelites, this suggests that the entire makeup of the 144,000 is spiritual and not ethnic. Galatians 3:28-29 teaches that in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, and that all believers are considered Abraham’s seed and heirs to the promises made to Israel.
If elements like men, virgins, tribes, and Israelites are all understood symbolically, why would the number 144,000 itself not also be symbolic? Interpreting everything else as symbolic while insisting the number 144,000 is literal seems inconsistent.
The book of Revelation is filled with symbolic numbers — 7, 10, 12, and 1,000, for example, all of which represent completeness or perfection. The number 144,000 (12 x 12 x 1,000) likely represents the fullness of God’s people, not a literal, limited number of individuals of separate "class".
To interpret the 144,000 as a literal number while accepting that the other details about this group are symbolic creates a contradiction. Consistency would suggest that the number 144,000 is also symbolic, representing the full number of those who will be spiritually pure and redeemed by Christ. Thus, the idea that only 144,000 will go to heaven or rule with Christ is based on a selective reading of the text that does not account for the larger symbolic context of Revelation.
60
The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity
by aqwsed12345 in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.
aqwsed12345
1. "Men" as Symbolic: The description in Revelation 14:4 uses the Greek word παρθένοι (virgins) in its masculine form, which is often interpreted to mean literal men. However, as you've clarified, Witnesses do not believe the 144,000 are all male. If the term "virgins" is understood symbolically to include both men and women, then this suggests the description is not meant to be taken literally.
2. Virginity as Symbolic: The term "virgin" is used to indicate spiritual purity, not literal sexual chastity. This symbolic interpretation is broadly accepted among biblical scholars. In Revelation, virginity represents loyalty to Christ and separation from spiritual fornication (false worship). If this is symbolic, it further reinforces that the literal details of this group (such as gender and virginity) are symbolic, not factual.
3. 12 Tribes and the Number 12,000 as Symbolic: Revelation 7:4-8 describes the 144,000 as coming from 12,000 members of each of the 12 tribes of Israel. This, too, is widely understood as symbolic. The tribes listed in Revelation do not correspond exactly to the historical tribes of Israel. In fact, the tribe of Dan is omitted, and Joseph and Manasseh are added in a way that differs from traditional tribal listings. Scholars interpret these symbolic 12 tribes to represent the spiritual Israel, encompassing all of God's people, not literal Jews.
4. Israelites as Symbolic: If the description of the 12 tribes is symbolic and does not refer to literal Israelites, this suggests that the entire makeup of the 144,000 is spiritual and not ethnic. Galatians 3:28-29 teaches that in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, and that all believers are considered Abraham’s seed and heirs to the promises made to Israel.
If elements like men, virgins, tribes, and Israelites are all understood symbolically, why would the number 144,000 itself not also be symbolic? Interpreting everything else as symbolic while insisting the number 144,000 is literal seems inconsistent.
The book of Revelation is filled with symbolic numbers — 7, 10, 12, and 1,000, for example, all of which represent completeness or perfection. The number 144,000 (12 x 12 x 1,000) likely represents the fullness of God’s people, not a literal, limited number of individuals of separate "class".
To interpret the 144,000 as a literal number while accepting that the other details about this group are symbolic creates a contradiction. Consistency would suggest that the number 144,000 is also symbolic, representing the full number of those who will be spiritually pure and redeemed by Christ. Thus, the idea that only 144,000 will go to heaven or rule with Christ is based on a selective reading of the text that does not account for the larger symbolic context of Revelation.

aqwsed12345

Posts by aqwsed12345

Ten reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses have the true religion (plus a bonus one)

aqwsed12345

Refutation of JW Arguments

Why Roman Catholicism Is the True Faith

The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

aqwsed12345

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

aqwsed12345

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

aqwsed12345

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

aqwsed12345

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

aqwsed12345

1. Symbolic Nature of Revelation

2. Symbolism of the 12 Tribes and Their Inclusion

3. Use of Symbolic Numbers Elsewhere

4. The Meaning of "Firstfruits"

5. The Great Crowd and the 144,000

6. No Explicit Statement that the 144,000 is Literal

7. Historical and Theological Consensus

Conclusion

The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

aqwsed12345

The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

aqwsed12345

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

aqwsed12345

The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

aqwsed12345