Posts by Liberty

181

The Dawkins Delusion

by brotherdan in

so, i recently finished reading "the god delusion" by richard dawkins.

i read it with a certain amount of hesitation.

after all, i am still recovering from my disappointment at realizing that the wts is not god's organization.

Giving examples of "bad" religious people may really just be a way to counter the constant refrain from theists that human beings must believe in God in order to be "good". My parents argue this with me all the time and yet the evidence I have seen with my own eyes over 49 years of life clearly defies this assumption. Living in the Bible Belt of the USA I've seen that just having a large God believing population doesn't change the percentage of aberrant/criminal behaviours.

People are people and a certain percentage of any population are going to exhibit "bad" behaviour despite being Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Communist, etc. If Believing in Jesus were enough then there should be lower percentages of criminal statistics in places like Oklahoma City while Bejing China should be a cesspool of criminality. In short there is no difference between a non-Jesus population and a Jesus population when it comes to bad behaviour.

Dawkins, perhaps doesn't spell this out as well as he should, but that's what I got out of it. Catholic priests can be child molesters as can JW Elders, or Baptist ministers, or Communist Party chairmen. I'm not saying that Christians should all be perfect, I'm just pointing out the evidence that a human being is just a human being and belief in God is statistically not important when it comes to acting badly. Believing in God does not make you a better person. There are just good people who do or do not believe in God and bad people who do or do not believe in God.

As to faith, I won't speak for Dawkins, but for me alone. I find it impossible to have faith if there is no evidence. I don't know about you, but God has never spoken, appeared or revealed Himself to me in any way and the culture I was raised in presents for its strongest evidence a silly book of fairy stories (the Bible) that can be disproven over and over again. So no, I no longer have fath that an invisible super being named Jesus or Jehovah is running the show in the same way that I don't believe that Allah, Zeus, Oden or that pink unicorns make the Universe work and will judge me for masturbating while lusting after naked women. I have faith in things that provide some evidence for their existence like the reality of real things most of us live with every day. Allah, Zenu, Molloch, Thor are not real for me just as Jesus is not real for me. I have never seen or heard anything that provides any evidence that He still lives and controls the Universe, hence I have no faith in Him. What is faith to you? I guess I don't understand why you claim Dawkins and I don't understand your version of faith. Is faith belief without evidence?

20

Why Did God Commission Russell to Preach to People Who Would All Die Before Armageddon?

by neverendingjourney in

i've posted this thought before, but i've yet to get a lot of feedback.

it's also not a point i see brought up very much on jwd, but it seems like a very simple, logical way of disproving witness doctrine/eschatology.. witnesses believe that the parable of the wheat and the weeds is having its fulfillment in our time.

that's to say that jehovah began to gather his people in these last days so that those rightly-disposed can survive armageddon.

Liberty

Great observation! Just one of many lines of evidence that can make the "whole JW house of cards" come tumbling down. Time has always been the Watchtower's biggest enemy. Time alone has 100% factually proven the Watchtower wrong over and over again. Objective time alone with no "apostate" opinion/propoganda involved has proven that the Society is/was completely wrong on a majority of their core beliefs.

Unfortunately, cult believers( like JWs) are unmoved by facts, logic, and reality. Another logical question to ask would be, What good does it do any serious warning movement if it cries wolf for well over 100 years and counting without any of the multiple relevant prediction cycles coming true? Why would God (if there were one) support such an ineffective wolf-crying turn off unless He were stupid and/or just plain cruel? Straight thinking tells us that He would not and yet JWs are convinced that they own "The Truth" about these multiple "nothing happens" warnings.

The excuse that God would need this much time to set up a "salvation infrastructure" as explained to BluesBrother doesn't hold water either since using this logic God should have just provided a continuous line of "true religion" from the advent of Christianity for 2000 years in order to build the largest possible population of "true belivers" to be saved when Armageddon finally happens. The Watchtower claims that there was no such true religion until they came on the scene relatively recently.

Nothing they have proposed makes any damned sense and yet people still continue to believe it. How can they have a vital and immediate warning mission which stretches on and on with no real end in sight? It is a complete contradiction. This alone is evidence for those who claim 1975 was never predicted as the End by the Society, how could it NOT be, considering that the End has always been right around the corner year after year for well over 100 years. Any year throughout this entire period has been the possible date of Armageddon since that is the entire stated purpose of being a Jehovah's Witness. They are always and only predicting that the End is near year after year. This is the stated purpose of their entire existance and yet they do not see how self contradictory such a position becomes after a few hundred years.

40

Mind Control

by brotherdan in

jw
friends

so i've been reading stephen hassan's book on mind control and he made an interesting point that made me think about myself.

he asks the question, "what makes some people just walk out of cults on their own, while others require much harsher measures from others to get them out?".

most of you know that i was thoroughly indoctrinated as a jw.

Liberty

I think one of the primary reasons why only a certain percentage of people are able to leave a cult has to do with their self-honesty combined with how much they value objective truth. When exposed to even minimal alternative view points those predisposed to self honesty take the chance to reevaluate and test their "reality" against the evidence. Many people in the general non-cult population are not honest with themselves nor do they value objective truth(reality?) but this is less of a dailey concern for them than for a cult member since the cult member is required to examine and reexamine their actions and beliefs with much greater concentration along with the greater consequences.

The fact that most of us on this forum live in Western-style democracies does allow for us to be exposed to alternate views of reality, very unlike cult-countries like Saudia Arabia or North Korea where alternate realities are severly prohibited and punishable even by death, hence 98% compliance. In short, I think the percentage of self-honest people is the same throughout all populations but we see them more clearly in a cult like the JWs that thrive in mostly open societies(which are tolerant of cults since they are not directly competing with them for aligiance)

As I recall, Brother Dan you have pursued a higher education which exposed you to alternate realities beyond the "normal" JW, but even for those who avoid exposure in this way the free society leaks a great deal of allternative ideas in TV, radio, books, magazines, movies, games,"worldly" aquaintences, etc. This alternative information combined with a truth seeking personality leads to the realization that there may be other ways of looking at reality

113

Favorite MOVIE SCENE - any genre - your pick!

by AWAKE&WATCHING in

jw
friends

.

i realized i was hi-jacking another thread so i thought i would start my own topic.. one of my favorite movie scenes is the "to tip or not to tip" scene in reservoir dogs.

i don't care for all the blood in tarantino movies but he is, without a doubt, a genius.. .

Liberty

Among my top favorites is Roy Batty's pre-death monologue in "Blade Runner". A beautiful scene.

127

Disrespect of the Bible

by brotherdan in

jw
friends

i am going to get a lot of flack for this post, but i need to do it.

i want to preface this by saying that i don't judge any of you and i believe in the right of freedom of speech and freedom of religion, including your freedom to not practice one.. however, i'm finding a trend among some ex jws here.

notice the word "some".

Liberty

Just a reality check. You could not possibly have even the most cursory knowledge of science since you say its conclusions were based on faith. This is not an insult, just a fact. You need to study your subjects with greater intensity before you can make such definitive statements. You are inexperianced with living in the non-JW world, a natural scientific world. The natural world is completely different from the JW world view you are used to. Believe me I know. I have lived in both worlds now and they are diametrically opposed. You must receed further and further away from the JW world before you can see these differences clearly. You have not been out long enough, it is not your fault it just takes time and knowledge.

A book or two about science vs. religion is a start but hardly an "examination". Years of study are required in our search for "reality" and "truth" and you have only just begun. I highly suggest you take college level courses in all the sciences or at least read several books which are not religious in nature. You have been influenced for years by an anti-scientific cult indoctrination so you should at the very least be willing to equilize this with a sound scientific foundation. You cannot make an informed choice otherwise. You will also benifit from being freed bit by bit from unconscious JW superstition as you grow in scientific knowledge and critical thinking ability.

I wish you only the best in your search for truth.

127

Disrespect of the Bible

by brotherdan in

jw
friends

i am going to get a lot of flack for this post, but i need to do it.

i want to preface this by saying that i don't judge any of you and i believe in the right of freedom of speech and freedom of religion, including your freedom to not practice one.. however, i'm finding a trend among some ex jws here.

notice the word "some".

Liberty

I'm not here to give you flack, I just enjoy the free market of ideas now available since I am no longer under the Watch Tower's control. I respect/disrespect the Bible in the same way that I do the Book of Mormon, Koran, or any other books which claim to be God's revealed Word. Each and every book which has people making such claims to their greatness should be subject to the most skeptical reviews if compared in the same realm as scientific conclusions. To the best of my knowledge, scientists who write books and propose theories do not claim that they are God's direct words and that disagreeing with these ideas will condemn us to death and/or eternal punishments.

Faith and science are mutually exclusive. Skeptics do not accept evolution because of faith but rather because of a preponderance of the evidence, if new evidence is presented then the theoretical paradigm must be changed to reflect this. Faith and religions are not changed by the rules of evidence. You do not yet understand scientific method because you are still steeped in the rules of faith and the JW religion. You cannot apply faith to science and you need to clarify in your own mind that you understand the scientific method before you can honestly discuss whether evolution or any other scientific conclusions are "wrong".

I am not trying to be a smart ass, I am just warning you that you are way out of your league because you have not educated yourself with the rules needed for such a debate. This is not your fault since the Watch Tower teaches that they provide their followers with the proper tools to prove that their religion is compatable with "real" science, however you already suspect that the Watch Tower leadership doesn't have a clue when it comes to teaching "truth". Keep this in mind always as you explore your new found freedom of thought. You are destined for a long and interesting journey of discovery.

23

Impromptu Survey - 2 Types of Reasons to Leave

by AdaMakawee in

jw
friends

i was thinking, not counting those who are df'd for "conduct," it seems to me that there are two type of exjws that leave.

by this i mean the ones that woke up and came to their senses while still inside.

1. those who found doctrinal errors and couldn't stay with the lies.. 2. those who found that there was no love and left because of the betrayal of emotions, and realization that by this fruit you knew they were not the ones, their lack of love.

Liberty

#1 and their complete lack of scientific understanding

Anti-theist

39

Do the JW's really and truly believe that the end is near?

by TooBad TooSad in

if the jw's really believe what the witchtower babble and trick society says about.

the end being so close, do their actions betray what they preach?

if you knew that your house.

Liberty

I don't blame the Rank & File JWs for being hypocrytical about the "END" being near as they are just following the leadership's example. The Watch Tower Society has played this game for years, they claim that the worldly governments will turn on religion, including the Watch Tower, and confiscate all the wealth and real estate and then these would be destroyed by ol'Jehoobie at the big "A", and yet the WT Society always has some Ten Year expansion and building plan in the works for their various facilities around the world. The two beliefs are incompatable. They can't use the excuse that these facilities would be used in the "New System" because as the property of Worldly governments these buildings would be as subject to destruction as the Pentagon or White House. A complete contradiction. No wonder the JWs are so bad at acting like they believe the "End" is near.

27

How did you think the GB made decisions?

by LearningMore in

i was just thinking about this today.

c of c opened my eyes on how the gb makes decisions.

i used to think that they must have prayed a lot together and then had moments of enlightenment from god.

Liberty

I too, like SirNose, believed just what the WT Society told us back in the late 1960's/70's, namely that all of the surviving 144,000 were mysteriously spirit guided as a communal telepathic force to provide the Watch Tower Society with leadership and biblical interpretation. I had not a clue how this worked but stupidly took them at their word. I know now, of coarse, that no such arrangement ever existed which makes sense since there was no method of communication between all the Anointed in place and the Anointed knew themselves that they were never consulted with by anyone/thing. It was just another Watch Tower lie. When I read Ray Franz's Crisis of Conscience I discovered for the first time how the Society was really run. Quite an eye opener.

23

Real Estate, Good Time To Buy?

by Indo_Dude in

jw
friends

is anyone else planning on buying in the near future?

with the bubble in real estate finally popping, when do you think prices will hit bottom?.

when my grandmother died, she left a small amount of money to me which will pay off my school loans, and leave me with some left over for a downpayment.

Liberty

No argument here sir82. We should always be cautious. However, the exact same style new sells in the same nieghborhood now for $224,900.00. we need a house and the price is right so I'll be happy to take even the $49,500 in equity. Even if values drop another 10% We'll still be ahead. I just brought up the tax value as a measure of where it could go in a few years.

No worries though if it doesn't, the house is well worth what we are paying for it to us and ultimately that is what matters. We can afford the payments and get a very nice nearly new house. If housing values start dropping by huge percentages then there will be other things happening which are more important to worry about.

I still think if you have the money, a stable job, and can qualify for a loan now is a great time to buy, especially if you can get a foreclosure in good shape.