Bookmarking, back later, JRK
Chariklo
JoinedPosts by Chariklo
-
5
The scent of desperation is not an aphrodisiac
by JRK insince i have been putting all of my personal demons out there for everyone to read, i figure i might as well continue.
as was covered before, i have in the past tried to gain self-esteem through other people.
it has been most notable in relationships or potential relationships.
-
-
-
245
Is the Watchtower shy about repeating their new "generation" teaching?
by slimboyfat inas i recall in the 1980s talks and watchtower literature, magazines and books were always talking about the "generation" teaching and how it proved armageddon was going to come any day now.. but am i correct in thinking they have only actually mentioned the new "overlapping generations" teaching once or twice in the literature?
why are they so shy about talking about their great new interpretation?
it's almost enough to make you suspect they are a embarrassed about it.. mention it once or twice, don't dwell on it, hope everyone just accepts it, and don't bring it up again.
-
-
Chariklo
I've just wasted 25 minutes TRYING to wade through all the above, to follow the meandering thought thread from djeggnog in hope of finding that logic finally triumphs, but I have to admit to failure. It doesn't.
I gave up.
Eggnog, just one thing. (I've written a more detailed response to you on another matter elsewhere.)
If I have understood you right, in what you've written immediately above ...no guarantee that I have, you kind of went on a bit....you are saying BOTH that you are an active JW in good standing in your locality AND that you reserve to yourself the right, as a Christian with a free conscience, to be posting on JWN. Do I have you right so far?
Equating that with talks I've heard from the DO at the 2 day assembly and before that from a Bethel speaker at the 3 day convention poses a conundrum. The GB have said explicitly and categorically that apostate sites such as this one should absolutely not be visited by any one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Further, the elder who at the time was instructing me in study told me that anyone coming even here silently, never mind posting here, had deliberately chosen to "turn their back on Jehovah and to disobey his direct instructions", the logic of that being that the Governing Body was the means by which Jehovah made his wishes known on earth now.
That's what I remember and wrote down as accurately as possible from speakers, and what was imprinted on me by the elder here.
Here's my problem. Given that the most authoritative statements have been made by representatives of the Governing Body explicitly condemning even visiting this site, let alone posting, and absolutely forbidding all Jehovah's Witnesses to come here....yet you say you are an active Jehovah's Witness...and you see yourself as free to choose whether to come here or not....two such absolute premises, one of utter prohibition requiring total obedience, one insisting on personal freedom of action based on freedom of conscience...how can you, indeed anyone, subscribe to the one without refusing to believe and observe the other?
Cognitive dissonance sets in.
How do you resolve this problem within yourself, please?
-
9
The cosmic struggle between the forces of good and evil
by Celestial inthe idea of a cosmic struggle between the forces of good and evil has prompted endless speculation by writers and philosophers throughout history.
there is a book, however, that contains the accurate history of the battle between god and the devil.
that book is the bible.
-
-
Chariklo
Very interesting review, very interesting thread.
I'm basically bookmmarking this to come back later on, but apart from one or twom places where I find myself thinking "I'm not sure that actually follows logically" my main overriding reaction is this.
Especially after my experience of being 99% hooked in by the Watchtower (thank goodness for that remaining sane one per cent of me that finally saved me) I am very, very resistant to the idea of an absolute truth. Or at least, a Truth that we can know, learn about and recognise.
Hmmm. Interesting. Thanks for posting.
-
-
-
Chariklo
Yup. They are a cult.
Grrrrrrr
-
48
Memorial - Why do i keep going?
by maisha inevery year i attend, missing only 5 in 50 years.. i do not attend meetings nor active in anyway, my family shun me,(all devote believers) but i do feel drawn to attend each year.
i am out for sure, but i no longer have faith, or a belief in any religous body as being approved by god.. i am so screwed up now i not sure if i believe in a creator!, let alone who or what that may be.. i was born into the truth, married into the truth and my ex is devote.. i could never return to the cult now seeing it for what it is.. i served, donated, slaved for years happy to do so as has all my family.. i went out of my way to get df, sort of a wanting to die act, of rejecting the society.. i used to sit in a movie in my youth and think, wow i am so lucky, all these people are going to die and i will live forever.. even just typing this gives release to my emotions,, lol,,, yea i have many emotions,,, many regrets, basically the organisation i followed and the instructions destroyed my life in every possible way.. the power plays that i witnessed within are what first woke me up,,,at first i let it go, forgiving those involved as brothers do.
but again and again power and position is and was the thing to have, you got the power you got everything.
-
-
Chariklo
djeggnog
It wouldn't be a bad idea to check your facts before you post.
The Roman Catholic Church, for example, who has its own beliefs regarding the Eucharist, teaches the Eucharistic bread to be a symbol of the church community, when the bread actually symbolizes Jesus' sinless fleshly body that he offered up in sacrifice for the life of the world, while the wine symbolizes Jesus' blood that makes operative the new covenant and those that rightly partake of the emblems and eat and drink during the ceremony acknowledge the kingdom covenant as being operative toward them.
Actually, no. (What follows is for those who are interested to know both what the RC doctrine actually is and why djeggnog is totally, completely, utterly way, way way off the mark. For the rest of you, this might be boring, so just skip.)
The RC Church does NOT teach "the Eucharistic bread to be a symbol of the church community, nor does it teach that "the bread actually symbolizes Jesus' sinless fleshly body..." Same in respect of the wine/blood, whilst this bit "those that rightly partake of the emblems and eat and drink during the ceremony acknowlledge the kingdom convenat as being operative toward them."
Frankly, that is a load of gibberish mixed with phooey. You've absorbed little tiny references to what the RC doctrine is, totally misunderstood it and mixed it thoroughly with JW expressions and come up with the nonsense above. It's so altogether wrong that it's hard to know where to begin to unpick it.
First, it doesn't teach the "Eucharistic bread" to be a symbol of anything. Catholic doctrine says that during the celebration of the Mass, at the moment of consecration, the bread actually becomes Christ's body, and the wine actually becomes his blood. It doesn't look like it, taste like it, feel like it etc, in other words it defies the senses, but it actually is Jesus Christ, in the words of the Church, "body, blood, soul and divinity". Not a symbol. Not symbolising anything whatsoever.
Catholics do not speak of "those that rightly partake of the emblems". They receive Holy Communion. The bread and wine are gifts to the altar, as a sacrifice, and at the sacrifice of the Mass they become the body and blood as before. Not emblems. Not symbols. The one, perfect and sufficient sacrifice, oblation and satisfaction for the sins of the whole world" not only re-enacted but actually taking place, one and the same, at each Mass. This is what the Catholic Church believes. Nothing in any way resembling your understanding.
The only sense in which the bread and wine can be seen as symbols is that all present may, through prayer, add their private prayers, devotions, concerns, petitions and troubles mentally and spiritually, and totally silently in their hearts, to the gifts being offered, and God in His mercy and infinite wisdom will hear their prayers as an offering along with the sacrificial gifts. That is all valid Catholic understanding and teaching.
Now, I mention this because, in this area, I can recognise pure ignorance hyping itself up as an authority when I see it. Sorry if this comes across as brutal, djeggnog. I don't know you very well and I haven't read all that many of your posts, but those I have read are very loud in telling people what the facts are. In this instance, it is not just that you don't know your facts, but you go to lengths to represent your own misunderstandings and misinterpretations as facts, and yourself as a knowledgeable authority. In this instance, where I do know what I'm talking about, I've taken the trouble to give what may be boring truths and definitions so that people can see that you are basically talking through the top of your head.
Please don't do it.
-
48
Memorial - Why do i keep going?
by maisha inevery year i attend, missing only 5 in 50 years.. i do not attend meetings nor active in anyway, my family shun me,(all devote believers) but i do feel drawn to attend each year.
i am out for sure, but i no longer have faith, or a belief in any religous body as being approved by god.. i am so screwed up now i not sure if i believe in a creator!, let alone who or what that may be.. i was born into the truth, married into the truth and my ex is devote.. i could never return to the cult now seeing it for what it is.. i served, donated, slaved for years happy to do so as has all my family.. i went out of my way to get df, sort of a wanting to die act, of rejecting the society.. i used to sit in a movie in my youth and think, wow i am so lucky, all these people are going to die and i will live forever.. even just typing this gives release to my emotions,, lol,,, yea i have many emotions,,, many regrets, basically the organisation i followed and the instructions destroyed my life in every possible way.. the power plays that i witnessed within are what first woke me up,,,at first i let it go, forgiving those involved as brothers do.
but again and again power and position is and was the thing to have, you got the power you got everything.
-
-
Chariklo
Wow. I was pretty appalled by djeggnog's contribution there, but I'll let that pass for now. Looks like he/she is thoroughly indoctrinated, (edit as an afterthought: though I may have misunderstood something there.)
Coming to the WT as I did from a background not very immersed in another church but very educated in theology and wide Bible scholarship, even though I was well and truly hooked in by the very clever JW pioneers who "found" me, I never enjoyed the Memorial, nor did I ever find it to be what djeggnog describes as observing "the memorial of his death". It patently isn't. It is quite explicitly just one interpretation of the instructions that Jesus left his followers. Broad Christianity, by which I mean almost all of the other churches, Catholic and Protestant. all have a much more frequent occasion when they follow those instructions according to their individual understanding.
Bear that in mind, as you think about this year's memorial. It is absolutely, explicitly, not commemorating his death. It's an attempt to follow his instructions in just one individual way according to some very unique and to most people bizarre interpretation of the Bible. It is also a self-glorifying exercise, an outward demonstration of exclusivity and power, a firm putting-into-their-place of everyone whom the WT has decided were never intended by Jesus to be included.
I am not holding out any brief for a particular interpretation of Christianity, nor even for any particular religion. You have been so scarred by the Watchtower that you're feeling thoroughly unsure whether or not you "believe in a Creator!, let alone who or what that may be."
You know, Maisha, that's REALLY GOOD! That's healthy! Of course you're not sure of everything, even any basic belief, but that in itself is a sign that you are beginning to listen to the voice of independence and common sense inside yourself. Escaping a lifelong indoctrination must be very very difficult. It sounds as if you were thoroughly immersed.
I'm not going to tell you wherther or not I think you should or shouldn't go the memorial this year, because your decision is your own, but before you decide you should ask yourself, as you are already asking, exactly why you would even think of going.
If you find you don't know, or if you find that fear is part of the answer, then you might like to consider not going at all. Instead, you could do absolutely anything else, from watching TV to enjoying the open air, just going for a walk, to enacting your own Last Supper with friends as WTWizard suggests, or even, a way out suggestion, going to one of the many other celebrations/observations/services around Easter time in another church. You would quickly see that Jesus' death is remembered on the Friday (6th this year) -Good Friday- and hs resurrection celebrated on the Sunday, Easter Sunday. You could just go into any church or chapel or whatever, whether Episcopalian or Light and Life, Shekinah, Methodist, Baptist, Salvation Army, even Catholic, anything, just as a member of the congregation gathered there, to see what happens. Depending on where it was, you would probably be unlikely to get a JW-style massive welcome, but equally, no-one is going to turn a hair. I think you might find a Friday service tough going, because since it is observing Jesus' death, wherever you went, it's going to be particulary solemn and sad. The Sunday, wherever you went, will be joyful. It will be very different from a KH. Or, you could watch a service on TV. Or you could find a Quaker meeting and just sit there quietly and see what happens.
Or, read about Buddhism. Or, even, visit a bookshop and browse some of the excellent self-help, New Age books around.
Whatever you do or don't do, do it because you've actively chosen that course of action, not because you are dimly afraid of some vague retribution if you don't. That is fear-mongering, pressuring nonsense, and says such a lot about the organisation that promotes it.
Remember. You are free. Your life is your own.
Edit: PS: I know what I'm doing in respect of this year's Memorial. I shall not be there. That gives me a great sense of freedom and of regaining control of my own life. My own free choice.
-
14
Does anyone know about Monsanto?
by Amelia Ashton ini was sent a petition stop supermarkets here in uk from selling products supplied by a company called monsanto.
i have never heard of them so i googled them and there doesn't seem to be anything good being said.
should we be worried over here?.
-
-
Chariklo
Unless I am very much mistaken, Monsanto are one of those companies that contribute massively to poverty and hunger in the Third World.
Farmers in such coountries used to be able to save some seed from the harvest to sow for next year, just as their forefathers had always done. it didn't make them rich but it left them able to take care of their families and sell enough for their needs.
Now, the seeds that can be bought will not produce viable seeds for future years, only crops, so that means that farmers are entirely dependent on the big corporations such as Monsanto.
It is a terrible, wicked scandal.
http://news.change.org/stories/how-monsanto-hurts-farmers-around-the-world
-
-
-
Chariklo
I'm rooting for perhaps.
-
19
Buddhist, Gay, and in Love with a Jehovah Witness
by fergal inmy name is augusto and i'm a 24 gay male, who practices buddhism since i was born.
where i work i was lucky enough to meet a wonderful guy who has been sort of my friend for quite some time.
when i say sort of, it is because since january we are not able to have any communication out of work.
-
-
Chariklo
Hi Augusto,
You are probably right. As a totally sincere gay man, in tune with yourself and confident in yourself, you probably do recognize another gay man. You're right, there are many pieces to the puzzle. You come over as having a very sound and deep inside for a young man of 24. What you can't know, though, is how his JW upbringing has formed him and how it influences him.
Ziddina is right too. You can learn a lot from exploring this site, and you'll learn a great deal about Jehovah's Witnesses, and it would give you an understanding of the whole JW cult that you won't get anywhere else...it is really a cult and not a relgion.
About nine months or so ago there was another young man posting on here. I think he might hagve been about your age. He was brought up as a Jehovah's Witness, but as he grew up he came to recognize that he was gay, and what I remember most about him was that he did break away from his parents and his upbringing. Although he was a JW he did come out of the closet and move right away from the Watchtower. And he had a lot of support from the members of this excellent forum. I'll do a bit of research and put a link to that thread here for you.
In the meantime, I just want to say, Fergal, Augusto...I don't know which name to use as you've given us both! ...I think you sound to be an amazing young man, very together, very sure of yourself and understanding towards others. I am really glad you posted here.
-
8
Verbal definitions exclusive to the WT?
by Chariklo ini've been meaning to ask this for a while.. just what, exactly, do the jw's mean by "shepherding"?.
being a naive ex-/ or rather lapsed catholic i assumed that "shepherding" calls were the same thing as pastoral visits by a priest, which involve basically a friendly cup of tea/coffee and a chat, or a visit in hospital to the sick.. it's gradually dawning on me that there's not a lot that's pastoral about "shepherding" visits by the jw's.
reading through stfog, i have a feeling that their brand of shepherds are a mixture of policeman and agents provocateurs.. similarly with "counsel", and "counselling".
-
-
Chariklo
Is it best just to find all their suggested times inconvenient, for a variety of reasons?