Posts by messenger

Witness on the WT-Stephen Bates

by messenger in

jw
friends

face to faith.

witness on the watchtower .

stephen bates.

messenger

Face to faith
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Witness on the watchtower
Stephen Bates
Saturday January 26, 2002
The Guardian

The letter from JR Brown, director of the office of public information for Jehovah's Witnesses in New York, spoke fondly of the Guardian, pointing out that "our journals, Awake! and the Watchtower quote from it extensively." Sadly, his opinion had changed as a result of a four-paragraph article I had written last November.

The story was a particularly terrible one. Larry and Constance Slack, a devoutly religious couple from Chicago's south side, had been accused of beating their 12 year-old daughter Laree to death with a length of electric cable, 5ft long and almost an inch thick, after she could not find her mother's coat quickly enough for them go out on time one Saturday evening.

They had beaten her in accordance with Deuteronomy 25, verses 1-3, prescribing 40 lashes' chastisement, minus one, as authorised by Jewish tradition, but then zealously reproducing St Paul's punishment (Corinthians 2:11) by multiplying it three times. The child, whose mother Constance administered some of the lashes, died after being beaten 160 times. Mrs Slack is a nurse.

The couple's five other children - one of whom, an eight year-old boy, was also beaten for being unable to find the coat - were ordered to help hold Laree down. She was gagged with a towel to prevent her screams being heard.

But what disturbed JR Brown about the Guardian's report was not the shocking story itself but the fact that the Slacks were described as Jehovah's Witnesses. He helpfully appended a statement from Leon, Larry Slack's brother, insisting that the couple were not devout witnesses. Although baptised as JWs, "for the last 10 years they have not shared in our worship services, although there were a few relatively short time periods that they would sporadically show up at meetings.

"To physically harm, abuse or kill others is diametrically opposed to the Bible principles we believe in and strive to practice... among the qualities we study about in the Bible... are.... love, joy, peace, long suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness and self-control."

The Jehovah's Witnesses have reason to be nervous about this case. A series of court actions concerning child abuse are pending across the US, and the sect's guidelines are coming under scrutiny because they appear to hinder any investigation of allegations made by children. They recommend, for instance, that complaints be investigated only if abuse is observed by two independent witnesses, and that any documentation arising from an inquiry should be burned rather than shown to outsiders.

The Watchtower does not prescribe 117 lashes for children, but it certainly endorses Proverbs 23:14: "Do not withold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die." Line four of song 164 in the Witnesses' hymn book, Children: Precious Gifts From God", chirrups: "He says 'Use the rod, yet with tenderness and loving care'."

The organisation has been in almost daily expectation of Armageddon since 1914, and keeps members in line by predicting a grim fate for non-believers - known privately as birdseed - since, in fulfilment of Ezekiel 39:18, their bones will be picked clean by crows. In particular, since September 11, they hope no one notices that their standard depiction of the onset of Armageddon is a jet plane crashing into a New York skyscraper.

The Watchtower holds that "theocratic war strategy" can justly be used to deceive outsiders: "In times of spiritual warfare, it is proper to mis-direct the enemy by hiding the truth. It is done unselfishly; it does no harm."

Presumably, this is JR Brown's precept in his letter. A trawl of Awake! and The Watchtower reveals few references to "the Manchester Guardian" in the last 20 years - certainly none current quoting from it extensively - and those there are appear to be distortions, or outright reversals, of what our articles said. As with the Bible, the interpretation is wrenched out of context.

But there's a deeper, nagging, thought here. Why is the Watchtower so keen to abandon the Slacks to their fate? Surely a Christian religion should not deny its followers, however repugnantly they have behaved? Did not the example of St Peter on Good Friday lay down a few guidelines here? It can't be, can it, that JR Brown believes that ordinary folk - birdseed, Guardian readers - might think that JWs' reading of the Bible allows such a misunderstanding?

We await his next response with interest.

· Stephen Bates is the Guardian's religious affairs correspondent

Guardian Unlimited

12

The outline for last weeks Blood Card talk

by Kent in

jw
friends

outline for service meeting: benefiting from kind provisions .

take a look at: http://watchtower.observer.org/apps/pbcs.dll/artikkel?nocache=1&dato=20020124&kategori=news&lopenr=201240001&ref=ar.

this is the latest "new light", and this subject has been discussed all over the board, i've heard.. instead of claiming all and everything, i feel it's much better to produce evidence to what the rules really are - and then the jw apologists can simply shut up and accept facts.. i will be interested in comments.. yachyd da.

messenger

"Then after making an informed decision, fill out both the Advance Medical Directive/Release card and the HCAD for for the best protection. We encourage you not to delay-Pr.16:20"

So much for free will, it appears the informed decision can only be one decision. Watchtower decision for you.

1

Armenia News JW's

by messenger in

jw
friends

two jehovah's witnesses trials under way in armenia.

policy of repeat prosecution in trials of conscientious objectors in armenia continues unchecked .

jehovah's witnesses office of public information, 15 january 2002 .

messenger

Two Jehovah's Witnesses trials under way in Armenia
POLICY OF REPEAT PROSECUTION IN TRIALS OF CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS IN ARMENIA CONTINUES UNCHECKED
Jehovah's Witnesses Office of Public Information, 15 January 2002
"I love my homeland and am prepared to do any beneficial work for it that is not connected with the military." These words were spoken yesterday by 21-year old Henrik Hovnikyan, a young Jehovah’s Witness being tried a second time for his refusal to serve in the military. The judge in the case, Mr. Gor Akopyan, commented on the young man’s fine character, his unblemished work record as well as character references from his employer and the municipality describing him as an exemplary citizen. Nevertheless he sentenced him to two and a half years of incarceration. While passing sentence, the judge also acknowledged that young Henrik had already been tried and sentenced to two years for the same offence.

The case illustrates the plight of young Jehovah’s Witnesses in Armenia. Despite commitments to the Council of Europe to free all conscientious objectors and pass legislation on civilian alternative service, authorities in the former Soviet republic continue an aggressive policy of jailing young Jehovah’s Witnesses who refuse military service. When these are released for good behavior or by a general amnesty, they are without exception, rearrested, tried, and sentenced a second time. In Henrik’s case, he was pardoned as part of a general amnesty declared in connection with Armenia’s celebration of 1,700 years of Christianity. Soon thereafter he was rearrested and held in custody pending his second trial.

There are 7,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses in Armenia. Over one hundred of these have been sentenced to prison terms for refusing military service over the last five years. Many of these will eventually face a second term of imprisonment. (posted 18 January 2002)

QUESTION OF CONSCIENCE AND RIGHTS OF PARENTS KEY ISSUES IN ARMENIAN APPEAL COURT TRIAL
Jehovah's Witnesses Office of Public Information, 16 January 2002

The prosecutor continued his appeal cross-examination of Mr. Lyova Margaryan today. His questions focused on the stand of Jehovah’s Witnesses on military service and the presence of minor children at their meetings and in religious activities. Both issues constitute the main thrust of Article 244, under which Mr. Margaryan was charged and found not guilty in a lower court.

Mr. Margaryan rejected the notion that he or any of Jehovah’s Witnesses influence others to refuse military service. He explained that each of Jehovah’s Witnesses makes his own decision based on his conscience. "This is their conviction, their understanding of the Bible, and the Constitution of Armenia guarantees freedom of conscience and expression."

As to the activity of minor children, their attendance at meetings and participation in religious activities, Mr. Margaryan stated that parents have the right and the responsibility of making decisions as to the activities of their children. "When children attend meetings and engage in religious activities, they do so with their parents’ permission, and it is not for me to approve or disapprove." When the defense lawyer stated that according to Article 7 of the law on religion, parents who are Jehovah’s Witnesses have the right to raise their children as they see fit, the prosecutor objected, claiming that this right only applies to "registered religions."

The law under which Mr. Margaryan has been charged is considered by many to be a Soviet relic and has been referred to as archaic and unconstitutional by other former Soviet republics and long removed from their legislation.

The trial resumes Monday, January 21, 2002 at noon. (posted 18 January 2002)

Russia Religion News Current News Items

5

Post by silentlambs

by messenger in

jw
friends

this was posted by silentlambs on the c forum along with several articles:.

http://www.channelc.org/cgi-bin/eboard30/index2.cgi?frames=no&board=main&mode=current.

i urge anyone/everyone to write letters to the editor of the appropriate newspapers (othello, tri-cities, spokane, seattle, sacramento) saying good things about erica and bad things about the jws and/or rel.

messenger

This was posted by silentlambs on the c forum along with several articles:
. http://www.channelc.org/cgi-bin/eboard30/index2.cgi?frames=no&board=Main&mode=Current

PLEASE! I urge anyone/everyone to write letters to the editor of the appropriate newspapers (Othello, Tri-Cities, Spokane, Seattle, Sacramento) saying good things about Erica and bad things about the JWs and/or rel. denominations in general regarding abuse. In my experience, positive letters to the editor following initial lawsiut coverage can really make a difference prodding other victims to come forward. Besides, it's likely that some JW's will write in with the usual allegations ("She's just trying to make money," "People are always persecuting us good religious folk" etc.) We need to continue to support Erica and keep the heat on those who protect the pedophiles!

Thanks much!

silentlambs

Sacramento News story Abuse

by messenger in

lawsuit claims jehovah's witness church protects pedophiles.

by john k. wiley associated press writer.

published 7:00 p.m. pst tuesday, jan. 22, 2002. spokane, wash. (ap) - a former othello woman whose family was shunned after she reported sexual abuse by a jehovah's witness leader claims in a civil lawsuit the denomination protects pedophiles.

messenger

Lawsuit claims Jehovah's Witness church protects pedophiles
By JOHN K. WILEY Associated Press Writer
Published 7:00 p.m. PST Tuesday, Jan. 22, 2002
SPOKANE, Wash. (AP) - A former Othello woman whose family was shunned after she reported sexual abuse by a Jehovah's Witness leader claims in a civil lawsuit the denomination protects pedophiles.
The negligence lawsuit, filed Tuesday in U.S. District Court here on behalf of Erica Rodriguez, 23, contends the Brooklyn, N.Y.-based denomination has a policy that gives pedophiles "sanctuary, protection, sympathy and support," while blaming and shaming the victims.
She is seeking undisclosed damages from Manuel Beliz, the Othello Spanish Jehovah's Witness congregation and Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, the church's national governing body.
Beliz, a former church elder in Othello, was convicted last August of raping and molesting Rodriguez from the time she was 4 until her family moved to California when she was 11. Beliz is serving an 11-year sentence at the Washington State Penitentiary.
Othello is located about 100 miles southwest of here.
Rodriguez's lawsuit contends the church knew Beliz was a pedophile, yet made him a ministerial servant and elder, failing to prevent further abuse of children. Rodriguez contends her family was shunned and threatened with excommunication after her mother reported the abuse to church elders in Sacramento, Calif., and Othello. Rodriguez eventually contacted Sacramento police, who contacted Othello police, leading to Beliz's prosecution.
"What's important to her is that they knew he was a pedophile and they didn't report him, as required under Washington's child abuse reporting statute," Timothy Kosnoff, a Bellevue lawyer representing Rodriguez, said in a telephone interview Tuesday.
"What gives this case broader significance is the practice within the Jehovah Witness church that, unless there are two witnesses to misconduct, it didn't happen," he said. "That's absurd, particularly in the context of child abuse, which is committed in secrecy."
Church spokesman J.R. Brown said he could not comment on Rodriguez's lawsuit because lawyers had not received paperwork.
But he said there is no policy preventing notification of civil authorities of a crime.
"What we handle is the transgression, or the sin, of child molestation. We distinguish that from the criminal aspect," Brown said. "Our view is, the church handles the sin, the secular authority - Caesar, if you will
- handles the criminal activity."
The church - which has about 6 million members worldwide, including 1 million in the United States - requires two witnesses because the Bible requires it for establishing a sin, he said.
"Where the state requires that this be reported, we comply fully," he said. "We have designed a policy to protect the victim of child molestation; to protect innocent children and to not allow pedophiles to circulate among us."
Beliz, 48, was first convicted of two counts of first-degree child rape and two counts of first-degree child molestation in 1998 in the case of Rodriguez.
The Washington state Court of Appeals granted Beliz a new trial because a deputy prosecutor sought to exclude women from the jury panel.
Beliz was convicted of the same counts by an Adams County jury last August.
Rodriguez is also represented by Jeffrey Anderson of St. Paul, Minn., who has filed more than 400 sexual abuse lawsuits against clergy across the nation.
Rodriguez is supported by William Bowen, who resigned as an elder of a Kentucky Jehovah's Witness church last year over the denomination's handling of child sex abuse claims.

16

Update on my friend....Billygoat was right

by Mulan in

jw
friends

had to edit this.

sorry.. gossip gossip gossip.. i'm not saying we aren't their definition of apostate, but they have no evidence against us, so they make it up.. "no one can take advantage of you, without your permission.

" ann landers

messenger

All the basis they need to do anything they want.

*** w88 4/15 26-8 Discipline That Can Yield Peaceable Fruit ***
Why This Firm Stand?
4 Most true Christians loyally support God and his righteous laws. (1 Thessalonians 1:2-7; Hebrews 6:10) Occasionally, though, a person deviates from the path of truth. For example, despite help from Christian elders, he may unrepentantly violate God’s laws. Or he may reject the faith by teaching false doctrine or by disassociating himself from the congregation. Then what should be done? Such things occurred even while the apostles were alive; hence, let us see what they wrote about this.
5 When a man in Corinth was unrepentantly immoral, Paul told the congregation: “Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.” (1 Corinthians 5:11-13) The same was to occur with apostates, such as Hymenaeus: “As for a man that promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition; knowing that such a man has been turned out of the way and is sinning.” (Titus 3:10, 11; 1 Timothy 1:19, 20) Such shunning would be appropriate, too, for anyone who rejects the congregation: “They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out that it might be shown up that not all are of our sort.”—1 John 2:18, 19.
6 Hopefully, such a one will repent so that he can be accepted back. (Acts 3:19) But meanwhile, may Christians have limited fellowship with him, or is strict avoidance necessary? If so, why?
Cut Off Thoroughly?
7 Christians do not hold themselves aloof from people. We have normal contacts with neighbors, workmates, schoolmates, and others, and witness to them even if some are ‘fornicators, greedy persons, extortioners, or idolaters.’ Paul wrote that we cannot avoid them completely, ‘otherwise we would have to get out of the world.’ He directed that it was to be different, though, with “a brother” who lived like that: “Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that [has returned to such ways], not even eating with such a man.”—1 Corinthians 5:9-11; Mark 2:13-17.
8 In the apostle John’s writings, we find similar counsel that emphasizes how thoroughly Christians are to avoid such ones: “Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God . . . If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For he that says a greeting [Greek, khai'ro] to him is a sharer in his wicked works.”—2 John 9-11.
9 Why is such a firm stand appropriate even today? Well, reflect on the severe cutting off mandated in God’s Law to Israel. In various serious matters, willful violators were executed. (Leviticus 20:10; Numbers 15:30, 31) When that happened, others, even relatives, could no longer speak with the dead lawbreaker. (Leviticus 19:1-4; Deuteronomy 13:1-5; 17:1-7) Though loyal Israelites back then were normal humans with emotions like ours, they knew that God is just and loving and that his Law protected their moral and spiritual cleanness. So they could accept that his arrangement to cut off wrongdoers was fundamentally a good and right thing.—Job 34:10-12.
10 We can be just as sure that God’s arrangement that Christians refuse to fellowship with someone who has been expelled for unrepentant sin is a wise protection for us. “Clear away the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, according as you are free from ferment.” (1 Corinthians 5:7) By also avoiding persons who have deliberately disassociated themselves, Christians are protected from possible critical, unappreciative, or even apostate views.—Hebrews 12:15, 16.
What About Relatives?
11 God certainly realizes that carrying out his righteous laws about cutting off wrongdoers often involves and affects relatives. As mentioned above, when an Israelite wrongdoer was executed, no more family association was possible. In fact, if a son was a drunkard and a glutton, his parents were to bring him before the judges, and if he was unrepentant, the parents were to share in the just executing of him, ‘to clear away what is bad from the midst of Israel.’ (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) You can appreciate that this would not have been easy for them. Imagine, too, how the wrongdoer’s brothers, sisters, or grandparents felt. Yet, their putting loyalty to their righteous God before family affection could be lifesaving for them.
12 Recall the case of Korah, a leader in rebellion against God’s leadership through Moses. In his perfect justice, Jehovah saw that Korah had to die. But all loyal ones were advised: “Turn aside, please, from before the tents of these wicked men and do not touch anything that belongs to them, that you may not be swept away in all their sin.” Relatives who would not accept God’s warning died with the rebels. But some of Korah’s relatives wisely chose to be loyal to Jehovah, which saved their lives and led to future blessings.—Numbers 16:16-33; 26:9-11; 2 Chronicles 20:19.
13 Cutting off from the Christian congregation does not involve immediate death, so family ties continue. Thus, a man who is disfellowshipped or who disassociates himself may still live at home with his Christian wife and faithful children. Respect for God’s judgments and the congregation’s action will move the wife and children to recognize that by his course, he altered the spiritual bond that existed between them. Yet, since his being disfellowshipped does not end their blood ties or marriage relationship, normal family affections and dealings can continue.
14 The situation is different if the disfellowshipped or disassociated one is a relative living outside the immediate family circle and home. It might be possible to have almost no contact at all with the relative. Even if there were some family matters requiring contact, this certainly would be kept to a minimum, in line with the divine principle: “Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person [or guilty of another gross sin], . . . not even eating with such a man.”—1 Corinthians 5:11.
15 Understandably, this may be difficult because of emotions and family ties, such as grandparents’ love for their grandchildren. Yet, this is a test of loyalty to God, as stated by the sister quoted on page 26. Anyone who is feeling the sadness and pain that the disfellowshipped relative has thus caused may find comfort and be encouraged by the example set by some of Korah’s relatives.—Psalm 84:10-12.

83

no blood cards this year!

by DIM in

jw
friends

last night at meeting they told us to just use our blood cards from last year.

in the past they've always told us how important it was to get it signed every year so that people could see our current views as jw's.....doesn't this new arangement negate everything they've ever said in regards to this?

absolutely nuts!.

messenger

Once again Jem,

All talk and no delivery. Why don't you produce the cards that were destroyed instead of a talk outline everyone in JW world has heard. You never deliver anything but half truths and talk everyone knows anyway.

20

WTBS CHARGES £10 FOR INFO

by JEMIMAH in

jw
friends

the wtbs in the uk and all the relevant congregations have introduced a 10 charge for anyone wishing to see their personal files and info held under the data protection act.

information includes publisher record cards, s77 forms, specialised sheperding lists and so on.. i presume that this just applies to the uk.

does anyone know of any other countries that have started to apply charges?.

messenger

This was posted with your last post on 11-25-01, we are still waiting for a response.

To Whom It May Concern,
Yes troll, I will be the first to state it and then if any of you will do a little research you may learn something.
1. Who was it that said we were getting a new KS book, claims to be reading it and yet has to produce one shred of information about what it contains?

2. Who is fishing for posters who may know what supposed KS 01 changes are?

3. Who gives stories about bethel moving then not moving with explanations that fish for insiders?

4. Who started a witchhunt with all dead ends on the WCC with no collaborating evidence? Was this to draw attention away from something else?

5. Who was it that said they had a teaching part about child molestation they were going to post?

6. Who gives details of meetings with no recourse from WT about finding him out?

7. Who consistently claims to have some tidbit then never has an answer back when questioned?

8. Who has yet to make one comment about the UN scandal as far as British bethel internal matters, or anything else for that matter?

One point could be blown off as a mistake, two could be a coincidence, three starts getting a little curious, after that it puts forth the appearance something is not right. If Jemimah is truly a bethel insider who wants to help those who are on the outside, then stand and deliver something meaningful. ANYTHING!

All I have seen are dead ends, promised goods and lack of follow through. Jemimah if you are the real deal and your are not trolling I ask you to deliver any one of three things:

1. Manuscript of your KS part on child molestation.

2. Summation of text changes from KS 91 to KS 01.

3. Hard copy of anything related to British bethel and their response to the UN issue.

If you wish to clear yourself of my charges then stand and deliver. I will be the first to apologize for misinterpreting your actions. On the other hand don't dance around here with inside information that has no substance that could put someone in harms way by WT plumbers. You claim to have beaten an investigation yet you must have a death wish to post a written response from WT correspondence. WT can trace any letter they write to anyone. That makes you either exceptionally stupid or a troll using information to scare those who read it. The copyright information is just too transparent. What other reason would a person have to post a letter threatening the witness owner of a website for putting up WT articles? Do any of you recall the “Question from Readers” about four months back regarding copyright of WT literature? Another threat to scare people away from putting up WT information that exposes them for what they are. I am sure they would love to see the Awake and WT UN articles go away from the internet, thus making it more difficult to sort out how WT supported the UN.

So what possible reason could Jem have for posting this letter? I could think of much less dangerous hard copy that could be produced that would be much harder to trace to one individual. Such as the three things requested above. If Jem does not answer or have anything to offer, I would suggest anyone who has contact with him to use caution as what you communicate may be used against you and this forum.

OK Jemimah, you have my challenge to your credibility prove me wrong.

5

French Bethel reopens

by JEMIMAH in

jw
friends

it appears that all of the french language printing work is returning to france.

it has been carried out at the uk branch for the last few years.

60 french bethelites were told to go back to france to report for duty.. the uk branch now has to get rid of about 100 british bethelites in the next few months.