BANG!
Everyone hear that sound? That was the sound of the door hitting the side of the barn in 1992. It ain't getting closed again.
Olly-olly oxen free, everyone in the college-water!
-Eduardo
PS: Good point VM44.
Oroborus21
JoinedPosts by Oroborus21
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21
JW response to latest hard line anti-education WT article?
by watch the tower inbased on some of the recent threads, it seems that the latest wt study article has created quite a stir within the congs.
for those of you that are still attending meetings and in active association with the cong, i am curious as to what the private response of individuals has been like.
i'm not talking about the usual, "wasn't that a great study?
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Removing "God"
by startingover in.
with the continuing thiest-athiest debates that go one here, i have a question, mainly for believers.. as a believer in god, how does it make you feel when you hear about athiest michael newdow's efforts to have "in god we trust" removed from us currency?
i guess this question could include the 10 commandments being displayed on public building issue, or removing reference to god from the pledge of allegiance.
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Oroborus21
It is an interesting question to think about.As for the essential question, it is probably the case that God disfavors the use or reference to him in any monetary form. In his dealings as recorded in the Bible he certainly was fairly specific about just what sort of spiritual references he approved of and pretty broadly defined that anything else should not be used in worship, no idol, no image etc. But whether a mere reference to him would also be disfavored is debatable. (Those who believe in the myth that because "God allows" (i.e. hasn't sent a plague or hailstorm down upon wrongdoers) something to occur that it is thus evidence of his tacit approval might make an argument, but I don't think a very good one.)
Setting aside those ethereal questions, I believe that the issue comes down to whether one is tradition minded and values cultural heritage or whether one is a modernist.
Like much of American culture and especially such things as symbols, seals, public monuments, coinage, documents, etc. there is a great deal of heritage involved. Someone, a long time ago, decided that it was a good idea to put "In God We Trust" on some of our money. Aside from saving Kris Kringle in the remake of Miracle on 34th Street, the effects of the statement are irrelevant. Such neither profanes God nor hinders the utility of the coin.
I for one enjoy a certain amount of pomp and circumstance and agree that we should indulge to some extent in our cultural heritage. So for that reason I am not supportive of any of these attempts to remove such cultural references from our world today and see them as proselytizing by politically correct buffoons with too much time on their hands and over-inflated egos. Too often the very people that would shirk from attempts at Christians or others to share with them the Good News about Jesus are in the vanguard of the effort to convert others over to their own secular way of thinking. Hypocracy thy name is a crusader.
On the other hand, there is the premise that we are not bound by tradition nor should we ever be chained to the past. Coinage and money is a utility used not by the dead but by the living. And so there is some argument for it being subject to modern and contemporary cultural standards. If our society, or its designated leaders, thus decided that in this 21st century we should do away with the greenback and clunky coins and start using smart chips, tied to a personal bank account, so be it. If before that they want to remove In God We Trust, or put Elvis instead of George Washington on it, why not? Who says things should have to stay the same. Removing religious references certainly doesn't profane God, detract from his worship, and again doesn't hinder the utility of the coin. At one time Caesar, a virtual deity, appeared on the coin. Now he doesn't.
Change happens and it happens to Change.
-Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.
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THIS JUST IN: CHRISTMAS has been CANCELLED this winter.
by Oroborus21 inflash--november 16, 2005, peoria, il.. instead of merry christmas, happy hannukah (or chanukah), kwanza, etc.all merchants are to use a generic term instead.
no use of santa, a nativity scene or any christian or other religious symbolage may be used in store displays, on advertising on upon product packaging.
use instead nondescript wintry animals, snowflakes and candycanes to signify the holiday season.. the committee on political correctness is expected to issue a final ruling by friday on whether "festivus" may be used.. -merchants for appropriate designations.
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Oroborus21
FLASH--NOVEMBER 16, 2005, Peoria, Il.
Instead of Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah (or Chanukah), Kwanza, etc.all merchants are to use a generic term instead. No use of Santa, a Nativity Scene or any Christian or other religious symbolage may be used in store displays, on advertising on upon product packaging. Use instead nondescript wintry animals, snowflakes and candycanes to signify the Holiday Season.
The committee on political correctness is expected to issue a final ruling by Friday on whether "Festivus" may be used.
-Merchants for Appropriate Designations
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Even though Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus, I am outraged by the blatant anti-religious sentiment in the commercial sector.
I love Coca-Cola but this winter I will be refusing to buy any Coca-Cola products that do not contain the words "Merry Christmas" on them or have a picture of Satan, I mean Santa. I will likewise not be shopping at any store that does not have "Merry Christmas" spray painted with fake-snow on the windows or in some other such fashion. I urge everyone who cares to do the same.
-Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.
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Mom Makes Daughter Stand on Street Corner
by daystar ini'm rather conflicted on this.
what do you guys think?
does this qualify as psychological abuse?
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Oroborus21
The Tufts professor is dead wrong. That Mom is doing a great job. In an era when it seems that few parents give a damn about how their child is doing in school or about instilling some discipline and good manners (such as not talking back to adults), such creative action is very refreshing.
More parents could take a page out of this woman's book.
-Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.
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They've done more for 1st amendment rights...blah blah...
by Odrade ini've heard this argument sooooo many times.
i've even used it myself in my "trying not to be overly critical or bitter" days.
but is it really true?.
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Oroborus21
Odrade,your original post commits the fundamental error of trying to extend the law to private individuals. The First Amendment and the others are restrictions upon the GOVERNMENT not upon individuals and they contain principles to be held by the GOVERNMENT.
If these same things were made applicable to private persons or organizations it would violate the very essense of human nature and freedom.
For example, while the Government may not restrain private persons from speaking freely in certain forums, each of us in certain circumstances could insist upon it. I would not permit you to stand in my living room and verbally abuse my child for example without asking you to leave or forcibly removing you.
My point is that you criticize the WT Organization for not acting like the Government when it is not the government and not subject to the restrictions of the 1st Amendment.
VM: very few Plaintiffs or Defendants that bring cases before the U.S. Supreme Court are not selfishly and firstly interested in their own claims and how the outcome of the case will affect them. In fact, the first prerequisite is that such a party must have STANDING, meaning the party must be impacted themselves by the outcome of the case. Thus it is not a valid criticism to say that because the WT in bringing forth its numerous legal cases was only seeking its own benefit it somehow takes away from its effect. This is almost always the case with any party championing such an action.
Without a doubt we have all benefited because of what others have done and that is the way our system works! The WT is not wrong nor without merit in touting its own legal victories and pointing out how these have benefited society at large. Only the most vehement WT haters would deny that they have done much good in the area of legal rights.
I had the privilege of being taught by some of the best in Constitutional rights such as Erwin Chemerinsky and Charles Whitebread and these professors and every such law professor and lawyer that I know would acknowlege that JWs' cases have done much to secure our civil freedoms.
Sincerely,
Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.
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Where in Watchtower literature are beards frowned upon?
by Kenneson in.
is there anyone here who can direct me to a publication that specifically discourages witnesses from having beards?
one witness i am debating claims it is not frowned on.
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Oroborus21
*** w75 8/15 500-1 Do Not Let Yourself Be Ensnared by Fads and Entertainment *** 9 Extreme hair styles can easily lead one into a trap of the Devil also, and cause others to stumble. For example, a young man in the
Blondie already gave this cite. It may be 30 years old but the attitude isn't.
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...trying to track down the JW core doctrines
by jgnat inthis is what i've concluded.. there are 104 questions the jw baptismal candidate must answer.
by comparison, a baptist dunker asks no more than five.
orthodox christians follow the nicene creed.
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Oroborus21
Elsewhere,
your post suggests that statements implying lack of absolute certainty are to be disregarded or not given any weight as to one's position.
True, it is nice to firmly take a position on a matter from time to time, but more often it is simply arrogant and foolish to pretend to have all of the answers or to know to an absolutely certainty.
I realize that in our cynical world, words like "probably" are viewed as meaning the negative but that is contrary to their actual meaning. (I know first hand because when the Elders asked me during my JC if I would "go to the Elders" with future (serious sins) that when I answered "probably" that it wasn't good enough.)
This is especially true with regard to future conduct or developments. The Society isn't to be chastised simply because it tends to qualify its statements, it is to be commended.
You can bet that it was all of those unqualified "certainties" and absolute statements that were made in the past, that got it in trouble, which are the source of present derision and criticism and which are the ones usually cited by opposers as evidence of its own haughtiness.
-Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.
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"but we put Jehovah's name BACK in the bible!"
by crankytoe inhello, my bible study conductor has made this statement on several occasions.
is it true?
i've heard that the name was removed from the old testament, but that it doesn't appear in the new testament.
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Oroborus21
No it isn't true. Jehovah can be found in several translations older and other than the NWT. In fact, JWs used to be fond of showing the name in the King James Version, the American Standard Version and others to people.Perhaps the brag of the overseer is more akin to boasting that the JWs have been more prominent in the use of the name than any other group. (Kind of like if the USC Trojans were to say they put the "champion" back in Football - its a stretch, you get my drift)
In this sense the JWs may well be able to brag and they certainly are the largest and most prominent group in the world that use the name Jehovah.
Unfortunately for them, the name "Jehovah" as we all know is a mistake, a fabrication, is not reflective of the true pronunciation of the Divine Name nor was it used by biblical Jews or early Christians or even widely used by anyone before the 14th century A.D.
JWs make a fool of themselves to brag about the use of the name Jehovah.
-Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.
PS: Just wanted to add, JWs are very clever to obscure the use of the name "Jehovah" with the "use of a personal name of God" and thus leave the uncareful reader with the impression that the name Jehovah was used. They will in an article that talks about the name Jehovah, say that this is based on the Hebrew Tetragrammaton and then point to uses of the TETRAGRAMMATON, inscriptons, carvings, or in the bible translations, etc.. They will claim that early Christians used the "divine name" or that the Jews did or that the disuse of the divine name arose through superstition. Pehaps these are true, but the divine name being used in all of these instances WAS NOT the name "Jehovah" itself but instead was in fact a variation of the hebrew consonants, YHWH, perhaps sounding like "Yabe" or "Yahweh".
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an Awake from 1993!?
by kristyann inokay, i am in the library at my college and seriously, five minutes ago i was walking past some tables in the building right outside the library, these are tables where people just sit and hang out and talk, and sitting on the table was an issue of awake from 1993!
why on earth is someone passing that out?
it is like pretty old looking, some of the pages stick (gross) and some of the pages are like bent over (dog-earred).
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Oroborus21
I used to have stacks and stacks of WT and Awakes and I am sure that this was common. I always hated "throwing them in the garbage" knowing how some poor Iowa boy probably sweated over boxing them up or whatever, so I would always try to care some in my backpack or briefcase and leave them whereever no matter how old they were. Even this practice never rid me of all of my supply (and I only took a few each month to begin with!) I suspect that someone lately dug through their stack and is trying to get rid of them in this manner too. Consider it a find, it should give you a real chuckle to read the old "purpose" statement inside the cover that still referenced the old Generation Doctrine.
-Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.
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How to destroy the Watchtower Organization
by saved in.
destroyed like bankrupt, unable to function as an organized religion, or whatever that will make all jws really wake up and think that this organization isn't what they think it is.. ideas?
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Oroborus21
Auldsoul is the only one with the correct answer. The Internet began a REVOLUTION that will ultimately result in a systemic transformation of the Organization. Jehovah's Witnesses as we know and love will be very different in the near future. The 20th century publishing-house paradigm is already shifting and a new, more organic one will take its place within the next two or three decades.
-Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.