Oroborus21

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Posts by Oroborus21

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  5

  Tyranny of the Minority

  by Oroborus21 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  yesterday, a u.s. ninth circuit court of appeals decision ruled that the recitation of the pledge of allegiance is unconstitutional.

  in summary, an atheist michael a. newdow, on behalf of his schoolage daughter, challenged the constitutionality of the pledge because it contains the words "under god".

  this decision was the wrong one.

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  Oroborus21

  Yesterday, a U.S. Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals decision ruled that the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional. In summary, an atheist Michael A. Newdow, on behalf of his schoolage daughter, challenged the constitutionality of the pledge because it contains the words "under God". This decision was the wrong one. In 1943, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in West Virginia State Board of Education v Barnette, 319 U.S. 624, a Jehovah's Witnesses case, that a person who has an objection to the flag salute and recitation of the pledge of allegiance cannot be compelled to recite the pledge or salute the flag or be punished for failure to do so. This decision protects the rights of minorities without imposing the "tyranny of the minority" upon the majority of persons who wish to engage in these activities. If Mr. Newdow or his daughter, or anyone else for that matter, has a problem with the reciting the pledge they have the option not to do it--just as Jehovah's Witnesses have helped to establish. But to impose their view upon the majority of persons is absolutely wrong in every sense. I suggest further that Mr. Newdow stop using U.S. currency for as we all know inscribed there are the words: "In God We Trust". --Eduardo
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  19

  July 8 Awake! in Praise of Police

  by Room 215 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  have you seen the july 8 awake!

  in praise of police?

  is it just me, or does this example of jw duplicitous doublespeak boggle your mind as well?

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  Oroborus21

  I am glad the article came out now maybe I will stop getting looks for my: "I support COPS" and "California PALs" supporter bumper stickers.

  --Eduardo
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  29

  Speech Counsel Point - TIMING

  by Mister Biggs in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  theocratic ministry school (tms) pet peeve of mine is found below.

  please feel free to add any that you find as annoying and hypocritical as mine.... last night, brother gramaton* delivered the # 2 talk (bible reading).

  he received all of this "wonderful, upbuilding" counsel from brother hank*, the school overseer.

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  Oroborus21

  Howdy,

  Have to totally disagree with you here.

  First, when it comes to "speech" classes which is essentially what the MS is, whether it is the MS or if it were at school, it is entirely useful to hear the critique publicly.

  The other students in the class just heard the talk, if they then hear the counsel, points that were good and things needing improvement they can then take the whole experience and learn from it for themselves. Thus everyone is instructed not just the student-speaker.

  Of course, this situation is most beneficial when the counsel or critique is of a substantial nature and of good quality itself. And yes I admit sometimes the School conductor/evaluator can take this role a little too seriously and a few have even seemed to enjoy the "power" of the situation--but for the most part the bros with this responsibility are reasonable.

  I do agree with you that an excess of time of 15 seconds seems like nit-picking, especially since most brothers would give at least a 30 second flexibility either way, short or overtime, on this counsel point.

  I disagree though with your other criticism of him running over time on his talk. The School is specifically to work on particular speech counsel points and to improve as a speaker (now with the change in the school effective 2003, really the emphasis is on becoming a better "minister" not merely speaker).

  The point the student was specifically supposed to be concentrating on was timing, thus it is fair and appropriate to judge him on that point.

  The latter talk of the brother was entirely different-part of the Service Meeting- and although the bros are encouraged to keep their talks to the specified time alloted what is MORE important is the content of the information. Entirely different than the ministry school.

  --Eduardo
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  21

  Who's going to see Minority Report?

  by ashitaka in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i used to deplore steven speilberg.

  i thought he was a smarmy nothing, who made his way on three good movies...jaws, close encounters, and et.

  even those are really flawed.

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  Oroborus21

  What no recognition for the academy award winning Schindler's List?

  --Eduardo
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  19

  what has most influence on JW's?

  by sleepy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  what or who , do you believe has the most influence on how jw's lead their lives?.

  is it the watchtower mags, meetings, circuit overseers , governing body,peers,or something else?.

  i was trying to think about what most influenced me and i think it is the group pressure we recieve in the org that pushes us most to do things.

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  Oroborus21

  Blacksheep,

  You raise a very good point about pleasing others. The culture of the organization is very higly sensitive to group approval or disapproval. Even the greatest organizational "punishment" of Disfellowshipping is in effect the extreme of this.

  This is though true of any group, work or social culture, but although I don't have the experience with other religions but I wouldn't be surprised if in the organization this group conformity pressure is stronger than many other religions.

  A JW raised in the org learns to discern all of the subtleties of this. It is interesting to observe how quickly the group can influence change when someone moves from one locale to another or with a new addition. When I moved from New Mexico where cowboy boots and bolo ties were acceptable meeting attire it didn't take me long especially after many comments from brothers (usually about how "nice" my bolos were) for me to figure out that a regular neck-choker was expected. However, my disuse of bolo ties came about less from group influence than from an increased fashion sense.

  Of course it is easy to say we should not strive to please others and it is irksome when occasionally this sentiment is even presented from the platform either in reference to the Widow's Mite episode or in general not to be drawing comparisons to our brother when we all know that the reality is that conformity is required. We further know that even when we would prefer not to or claim not to care about other's opinions of us, it is a natural human tendency to care and we do.

  --Eduardo
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  20

  Trying again for more door to door reasons

  by Bang in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i posted a question before regarding the way jws go door to door.

  [luke 10:7.23] and remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide,for the laborer deserves his wages; do not go from house to house.

  if the apostles didn't do it and jesus said not to, why do the jws do it en masse?

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  Oroborus21

  Ok here is another try.

  I thought my first answer was pretty informative. I did mention that Acts 20:20 does not really support the modern door-to-door method and this scripture in Luke does not forbid it either. In fact as I mentioned the holy bible does not either support the modern method of door-to-door explicity nor prohibit it.

  There is however scriptural support for the idea to be an evangelizer of the good news about Christ and God's Kingdom and that this should be work that EVERY Christian engages in. So the underlying principle to be a preacher and teacher of the Word and the Good News is scriptural.

  The question thus remains as to how this can be done on an individual basis and also (if one wishes to organize a group--although again no direct Scriptural basis for this other than Jesus sending out disciples in pairs) as a group how this may be done.

  To more specifically answer your question as to why JWs in particular engage in organized house-to-house work we merely need to examine the history of the organization and the development of this.

  Pastor Russell's group had grown substantially and he was sharing what is now "The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom" magazine on a subscription basis in which he espoused the teachings of the group. Other publications, tracts, bibles, his Studies in Scriptures, etc. were also likewise made available and the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, Inc. arose out of this activity.

  In short order, "colporteurs," which are travelling purveyors of religious publications began to travel around and offer these publications to the public. Initially the goal for these persons may have been more from a subscription and sales perspective then from an evangelizing one, although perhaps some of these did feel they were evangelizing.

  In time, although still called "colporteurs," the "reason" for the persons travelling around became more about, at least officially, "evangelizing" than obtaining subscriptions or sales.

  The Rutherford era began about this time and in time, all of the other categories developed. WT representives began to travel to groups (congregations) and different branches, etc. The colporteurs were replaced by "pioneers"--full time ministers and the whole organization became more and more of a hierarchy.

  My dates are fuzzy and I am work so I don't have the references with me right now but either during the mid-Rutherford period or Knorr period the idea of each person having to engage in the public ministry became the understanding and the "training" of what we now call the Ministry School was set-up and group ministry was organized.

  Searching for the best model that can be found in the Bible for how group ministry could be organized we arrive at Jesus sending out the 70 disciples in pairs. A modern modification of that arrangement and voila! we have the house-to-house method appearing.

  Again the surface reason is to fullfill the requirement that we be evangelizers of the Good News and to meet persons to start Bible Studies in order to proselytize to them and hopefully get them to accept the truth and become witnesses also. Secondarily, it was a method to distribute WT literature to persons at low cost (no advertisement costs/effective distribution costs).

  In time and by the time of the Knorr era and the Yankie Stadium/Polo grounds convention of 1953(?) this facet of ministry and mode of ministry had become associated with JWs by the public. This characteristic was embraced and proudly enhanced by the Society and it has essentially never ceased promoting or expanding on it since so that it is now probably the primary identifying characteristic (even to the point of parody now) of Jehovah's Witnesses.

  AS to effectiveness, well obviously many have become Witnesses as a result of this method of ministry and continue, so "effectiveness" is a relative and subjective term. The Society/Organization feels that it is and so it isn't likely to change any time soon (at least until the Great Tribulation is in full force ).

  To bottom line the answer as to why the door-to-door/house-to-house method continues today it is due to a little thing called "inertia".

  I will add though that at least in the last 20 years or so other ministry methods have been encouraged and are now a facet of the public ministry such as letter writing, telephone witnessing, street corner work, "drive-by witnessing", prison/etc. witnessing, and of course one that has always been around "informal" witnessing.

  Unfortunately, as I have said in another forum and another posting, it is time now that we are in the 21st Century for the Organization to leave behind its "publishing model" of the 20th Century and embrace the fact that it is a "religion". Being a Witness in the 21st Century should be more about a personal "way of life" then proselytizing or the public ministry. It is true that by pursuing the Golden Rule and out of Love for God, we will feel impelled to speak of God's Kingdom and to encourage the Bible as mankind's operating manual, but this should be done on a continual private and personal basis. If we have real Bible Studies they should be real studies with persons that want to learn and discuss the Bible. True, we may still choose to share WT literature with people or to encourage them to join us for worship at the Kingdom Hall but the emphasis in our lives should be more about living up to Godly standards, living up to the Golden Rule, and out of love, helping persons to learn God's message of hope for mankind and about the redemptive power of Christ's sacrifice.

  It is really just a very slight shift in perspective and mission but it is a difference that makes all of the difference between a new Jehovah's Witness (true) religion of the 21st Century and the old Jehovah's Witness publishing organization of the 20th.

  --Eduardo
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  8

  World Cup / Sporting Gaff's..

  by Englishman in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  world cup latest gaff's: .

  john motson, bbc: "just look at all the thousands and thousands of brazil shirts around the ground.

  nothing but a sea of yellow, a real kaleidoscope of colour".

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  Oroborus21

  hey Englishman from reading some of your other posts I take it you like soccer a lot....

  I was wondering did you ever see "Run Lola Run"? and if so I never really figured out what the opening soccer scene has to do with the rest of the pic? any enlightenment?

  --Eduardo
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  39

  JW Family Tries Black-Mailing Me

  by Prisca in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i have spent the last week or so with my sister and bro-in-law and my 6year old niece, all jws.

  they live in a town not too far away from me, and i visit them every couple of months or so.

  my sister and i are close, not extremely so, but we appreciate each other as we have no other bros & sisters, our mother died 21yrs ago, and our father treats us as though we are dead too (due to non-jw issues).. last time i went to visit them, my bro-in-law asked my niece to ask me if i'd go to the meeting.

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  Oroborus21

  I think that your Brother in LAw and sister MEAN WELL and sincerely believe that they are just trying to help you. At least, apparently they respect your convictions strongly enough to not approach you directly or to ask you to do something directly but instead are trying what in their minds is a more "tactful" approach without I believe from reading your account and real malice or desire to use their daughter as a pawn which is simply misguided.

  Were I in your brother in law's shoes and you were a guest in my home, I would feel it was my right (obligation?) to ask you EACH TIME we were getting ready for the meeting whether you would like to come (and your right to politely refuse each time)...although personally I might exercise that right only occassionally so as not to be exasperating you.

  BTW from your account, I think that you handled yourself and the situation most admirably and I am glad that you did not have to drive home in the dark or that a mountain was made out of this molehill.

  --Eduardo
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  15

  Lookin' for a little advice tonight...

  by wasasister in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i heard from an old friend today - she is a young woman i knew from my last congregation.

  i was asked to attend her bible study because we shared a profession and it was thought we would have something in common.

  in fact, she was a very shy young woman shy and attractive, but not in the traditional, flashy way of many witness girls.

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  Oroborus21

  Quick point: You mentioned that she was only "inactive" yet she had left her husband and taken up with another man and bearing his child. My assumption then is that she will most probably be disfellowshipped in the future (especially since it appears the Elders were already on the "side"of the former husband and didn't have her interests at heart or they would have mentioned something about his past to her). Therefore, if she is Disfellowshipped you should factor this in because during that time (and assuming that she doesn't get reinstated) she is likely to be exposed to a lot of things that are going to bolster any info that you may choose to point her too, here on this website, silentlambs, H20, WT Observer, etc. etc. and therefore what I am saying is that her likely DF'd status may decrease the chance (and your fear) that she is going to return to the fold and blow your cover. (If I got the gist of what your concern was.)

  Turning to actually helping this person, as you have already observed much or perhaps most of her trouble has nothting to do with the religion and so if you wish to help her you should help her to get this non-religious help, i.e. counseling, perhaps medical treatment for her depression, and so on and stay completely out of the realm of religion for the time being.

  I advise you to do this part FIRST and then take a temperature check with where she stands at that point. In the meantime and by the time that is accomplished you can see what problems she is having. Perhaps she will have come to her own conclusions about JWs or will be indicating to you her strong desire to return. And hopefully many of these other non-religious related problems will be better.

  Then you can decide at that time whether you wish to share any of the promethian fire with her or let things be.

  In any case, since she has these other non-religious problems, you do not want to expose her to these other things in such a mixed up state. It will be and is hard enough to get a level headed JW to even consider this stuff so even more so you don't want her to be in a state of depression, anxiety, etc. due to other non-religious things as these things will affect her judgement and you want her to be in the best state possible before you begin to unload the other stuff on her.

  All of this is a way for you to begin helping her immediately, while keeping yourself safe (since no claim of your sharing apostate, etc. info with her could be raised), and buying time for you to decide when it comes to the next phase what you will choose to do.

  In the end though follow the Golden Rule and also do what you believe to be the KIND thing to do no matter what personal consequences it may have for you. Being a true Christian means sometimes you have to feel the fire a bit.

  --Eduardo
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  62

  Online love

  by StinkyPantz in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  do you think it's possible to fall in love with someone online?

  assuming they give you a real picture of themselves and are honest about themselves.. is it possible to love this person before you meet them?

  i'm not talking about the kind of love you share with your friends, i'm talking the real deal.

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  Oroborus21

  Quick addendum to my above comments:

  My premise above that we must know a person to be able to love them is fine. But one corrollary based on the discussion was the necessity to meet in the flesh in order to really love them.

  To that I realized I should add the thought that hopefully (for us Christians here) we can express fully and truly that we LOVE God and Christ Jesus, etc. dispite the obvious (not so obvious) fact that we have never met these personages IN THE FLESH.

  Clearly not the same thing you were discussing but I thought I should add that clarification and further add that we build our knowledge about Christ and God from the Bible, from Creation, etc. and so we can feel confident that we know them or at least can know them well enough to say that based upon this knowledge we also love them.

  --Eduardo