Posts by Oroborus21

290

JW Children Lie in Custody Cases

by compound complex in

direct and cross-examination questions in child custody cases.

wtb&ts, page 42.

"be careful that they [jw children being questioned] don't get the impression that they are in a demonstration at the circuit assembly, when they would show that the first things in life are service and going to the kingdom hall.

Oroborus21

Carpenter,

No one is denying that for Witnesses their faith and theocratic activities are not of primary importance or that the goals of full-time service aren't what are emphasized in the literature or from the platform. That viewpoint is sure to be revealed by the JW parent themselves if not opposing counsel.

At issue in this thread is whether the CCB's statements are meant to foster deception or not.

IF the the CCB stated something like "Make sure that they don't say that their (the children's) faith is of primary importance" then in that case it would be contradictory to the Society's publications and JW culture and also it would be asking the children to deceive the court.

BUT THAT is clearly NOT what the CCB states:

"Be careful that they [JW children being questioned] don't get the impression that they are in a demonstration at the circuit assembly, when they would show that the first things in life are service and going to the Kingdom Hall. Show hobbies, crafts, social activity, sports, and especially plans for the future.
"Be careful they don't all say that they are going to be pioneers. Plans can be trade, getting married and having children, journalism, and all kinds of other things. Maybe you can show an interest in art and the theatre. They must be clean, moral, HONEST, but with interests you would expect from other young people." [CC: emphasis]

It can't be any more clearer that what is being told to counsel or the JW parent is to ensure that the child understands that they are to relate the whole story of what their interests are and what their plans are. In the vast majority of cases, this will not be full-time service and ALL JW children have "outside" interests which they can share with the court evaluators. This is not deception it is accuracy.

Of course, opposing counsel if they are savvy and prepared can reiterate the point that while JW children may have the other pursuits that the constant message and the most socially (among JWs) approved goals are that of full-time service.

I get that most lay persons don't understand the counsel and what the information is saying. Because this material is so easily misread, especially with those already holding a predisposition to do so, it is one of the reasons the CCB is available by request and not just a pamphlet widely distributed among JWs.

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Children are rarely asked to give testimony directly to the court in child-custody disputes. Normally the court relies upon an examination conducted by professionals. These interviews are lengthy enough and the ones conducting them generally skilled enough that no amount of preparation would be able to hide the fundamentals about the child's views, goals, attitudes, etc.

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Every witness in a trial is prepared by counsel or some other expert. If counsel doesn't prepare their witness they are not doing their job. The difference between "coaching" which is unethical and prepping the witness is that with prepping the witness you familiarize them with the situation of giving testimony, review their direct examination and the likely cross examination questions and address other aspects of their testimony like body language and so forth. Coaching a witness is rehearsing a witness to the point where they are not giving their own testimony but answers that originate with someone else.

27

Raising kids in JW religion and the fall out in later years - Suggestions?

by juni in

raised 4 kids in jw religion.

none are baptized and all are now adults.

they all have their own issues to this day from the crap that they were raised in.. anyone else share this similar history?

Oroborus21

How old are the kids?

You can never go back and relive the past. The best direction is forward. You can do a lot to making up what you feel you did wrong by moving ahead. Shower them and the grandkids with love. Celebrate holidays and whatever you didn't do as a JW to the hilt.

As for exploring their spirituality or discussing religion, God, etc. let these topics arise naturally. If you have strong views on these now share them, but in a less authoritative way than you might have as a JW. If you are still re-formulating your ideas about these things don't be afraid to tell your children that you don't have all the answers and encourage them to share their own views and to engage in their own exploration. Maybe if they express that they would like to attend some different churches or learn about some different faiths, let them know that you are willing to do it with them.

best wishes,

Eduardo

24

Predictions for 2007

by free2beme in

jw
friends

i will search deep in to my mind, and predict ten things for 2007. .

politics.

1. john kerry will announce that he will not run for president.. 2. bill clinton will reveal he has terminal cancer.. environment.

Oroborus21

hopefully it won't suck as bad as 2006 but it probably will. (so says George Carlin)

290

JW Children Lie in Custody Cases

by compound complex in

direct and cross-examination questions in child custody cases.

wtb&ts, page 42.

"be careful that they [jw children being questioned] don't get the impression that they are in a demonstration at the circuit assembly, when they would show that the first things in life are service and going to the kingdom hall.

Oroborus21

thanks CC. the Guide for Counsel that I am working on, will, I hope, better prepare attorneys who are unfamiliar with JWs, to counter some of those false statements that are sometimes made by JWs or their children as well as explore topics which might arise as they relate to JWs.

I am hoping to keep it even-handed but it will address the JW beliefs and culture confrontationally when those issues address the best interests of children. Duane Magnani says that "all things being equal, it is best for the children to be awarded into the custody of the non-JW parent" but I don't believe a blanket position like that is what is right. The court and the professionals whose job it is to make such determinations are the ones who should make these decisions and I believe they should be given all of the information necessary, that witnesses should be examined thoroughly, and that testimony should be presented which allows them to make these difficult decisions as best as they can.

I know first-hand that there are never truly any winners in family law and especially in divorce and custody cases. The children often "lose" in some respect and it is heart-breaking.

39

Interesting visit from broken down JW and CO

by hambeak in

jw
friends

yesterday pm while on gabbly two jw's came into my shop (former customers) with an overheating problem.. they saw my other copy of coc.

i asked what can we do for you?

they both were staring at the book, i noticed the car was spewing steam and coolant.

Oroborus21

I'm surprised more JWs don't get beaten up regularly.
W

Riiight! Cause that is an appropriate reaction in our enlightened times whenever we encounter those with whom we disagree or whom we perceive to be spreading harm and lies.

-Eduardo

14

Henschel with Castro

by Abandoned in

does anyone remember which issue of the watchtower or awake had the pictures with henschel and company posing with fidel castro?

Oroborus21

Not to be an apologist here....

BUT

while the photo LOOKS bad and the idea of "idolatry" certainly comes to mind...the fact is that a lot of people "sign" WT literature that is meant as a gift. This is not "autographing" in the sense of celebrity.

My favourite Songbook was a gift from a friend in Florida and she signed it with a nice message. And this is pretty common thing to do among not just JWs but among all Christians when they give a gift bible or whatever.

I beieve it is safe to assume that what the GB members were doing were writing their little notes and "pearls of wisdom" (Gag) so as to personalize the books. These guys know the difference between doing that and signing them like they were rock stars.

So I don't think what they were doing is itself wrong or inappropriate, it is just that they could have used a little PR advisor or someone on the editorial staff to not publish the picture which looks bad and which doesn't convey what they were probably actually doing well enough.

11

INSIGHT ON THE SCRIPTURES

by lighthouse19something in

i realize the publication is biased toward the jw doctrines, but is it accurate on the noncontroversial topics.

i spent good $ on it when it came out, and i wondered if anyone had opinions.

Oroborus21

Actually, much of it, if not the majority of it, is still the exact same information and wording as the Aid publication as you can see by laying the two publications side by side.

As you may know, as Ray Franz relates in CofC, when he and the team (that included good people like Ed Dunlap) put the Aid book togetherm they were given a "free hand" to develop the information and I think that on all of the non-doctrinal subjects they did a pretty decent job. Thus, in my opinion it is a good encyclopedia on those topics.

As you point out, on subjects which touch upon doctrinal aspects, you will have to evaluate those more carefully to determine whether what is said is true or accurate.

-Eduardo

19

WT LIES in the bible teach book

by Zico in

we all know the watchtower soicety can be deceitful at times.

one place i've noticed their deceit is in their main 'bible' study/cult introduction book 'what does the bible really teach?

designed for a jw holding a bible study with an interested person, this books tries to convince the person being studied with, that this religion knows the truth about the bible.

Oroborus21

Page 183, Ch. 18 para 24 'Remember, too, that you have made a dedication to Jehovah God himself, not to a work, a cause, other humans, or an organization'

LIES. What is that second baptism question that they so conveniently left out? "Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses IN ASSOCIATION WITH GOD'S SPIRIT DIRECTED ORGANISATION?" It's clear, a Jehovah's Witness baptism doesn't just mean a dedication to Jehovah, it also means you register yourself as a member of an organisation, and as we all know, having doubt that this Organisation teaches the Truth is like doubting Jehovah himself in the mind of a JW. (I could even argue that they do dedicate themselves to a work, a cause and other humans, but I won't)

What you say i your "analysis" is correct. I would only point out that the statement itself that you cite from page 183 is NOT a "lie." There is a difference between "dedication" (in the sense meant by baptism itself and the first baptismal question) and the acknowledgment that the person is identifying themselves as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in associaiton with blah, blah, blah"

JWs dedicate their lives to God (they believe) and no one else, not even the Organization. To the Organization, they only enter into a kind of Voluntary Servitude (which is of course wrong) and that is not the same as "dedication" in the sense meant by the Society in the statement.

290

JW Children Lie in Custody Cases

by compound complex in

direct and cross-examination questions in child custody cases.

wtb&ts, page 42.

"be careful that they [jw children being questioned] don't get the impression that they are in a demonstration at the circuit assembly, when they would show that the first things in life are service and going to the kingdom hall.

Oroborus21

There is no way you can reconcile this statement:
Be careful they don't all say that they are going to be pioneers. Plans can be trade, getting married and having children, journalism, and all kinds of other things.
with the "council" and "suggestions" that the Watchtower has repeatedly printed over the years warning of the "dangers" of pursuing higher education, of wanting to have any kind of career other than pioneering. They have even been known to suggest that young couples seriously consider not having children, because of "where we are in the stream of time."

No Apologies,

it is absolutely reconcilable. As I state in my previous post (to Atypical), NOT ALL JWS are going to be or even have the desire to be Pioneers. Thus the statement is fine, IF the child in question, which is very likely, is one of those who is not striving to become a pioneer. Of course, if the person is striving to become a pioneer then in those few cases, the child should of course discuss their goal of pioneering, which by the way, would likely include some sort of self-support by vocational training or part-time employment. There are many WT excerpts which follow along those lines that Pioneers should be able to support themselves with part-time work or with some vocational trade.

Secondly, what we have here is a situation where a statement is made in a communication which is general in nature but which is applicable to only a minority. Thus the WT statements are always going to focus on the highest goal or ideal circumstances and thus, yes, statements are made to reach out for pioneering. But these statements which are read or heard by all JWs are obviously only applicable to those few whose circumstances and whose desire allow for them to pursue pioneering or other full-time service. This really is obvious.

Similarly, the statement in the Child Custody brochure is one which is general to all JWs (facing child custody disputes) but which would not be applicable to the few children who are pioneering or who are striving to become pioneers. (Although, again it is clear that the situation for pioneer children would be to present a "balanced" picture of both their occupation with pioneering and whatever vocation they may have which allows them to pioneer.)

Again, I would challenge anyone to produce any excerpts from the Child Custody Brochure which clearly shows that the Society is advocating deception or dishonesty. That is a common claim made by anti-JW/opposers and some persons like Duane have written whole books making that claim, but it doesn't make it so.

this post and the excerpt provided is typical of the bias that is revealed by those misreading what is clearly advice to counsel to present balanced and fair information to the courts, experts or fact-finders.

290

JW Children Lie in Custody Cases

by compound complex in

direct and cross-examination questions in child custody cases.

wtb&ts, page 42.

"be careful that they [jw children being questioned] don't get the impression that they are in a demonstration at the circuit assembly, when they would show that the first things in life are service and going to the kingdom hall.

Oroborus21

Atypical,

read the citation (quotation) more closely. It does not say what you say it does, that is as you say "that the child are not to show that meeting etc. are first priority." The information very clearly states that the child should understand that the testimony is NOT like a convention presentation or congregation part WHERE the emphasis would be that meetings, etc. would be of primary importance.

No one is denying that meetings or one's faith is of "primary" importance and that is not the directive of the information. Again, the child (nor their parent, nor counsel) is not being told to be dishonest about the importance of their faith or of meetings, but only to present a full and complete picture of what their life is like. yes they will discuss their 5 meetings a week, etc. but they will also discuss their love of music, their hobbies, their other interests, their fav tv shows ,etc.

The goal of presenting an accurate account of how JWs spend their time is not intended to mislead the fact-finder or evaluator but rather to counter any preconceived bias or misconceptions that they may have about JWs.

Also, even though the "ideal" and encouraged state involves a significant amount of time and focus for JWs, the fact is that few JWs ACTUALLY do all that is "encouraged."

Regarding the issue of "pioneering" as a goal, in the literature or from the platform, that "goal" is tossed out as an encouragement to all, YET it is clearly understood that not all persons can do it or should do it. That is why it is always stated as a matter of whether a person can make it possible to do it. Additionally, the fact that one must qualify and be approved to be a pioneer also implies that not all JWs would have pioneering as a realistic goal. The vast majority of Witnesses have other goals and desires in life pursuits, trades and how they will make a living, and since 1995 have the "socially blessed" goal of higher education. Pioneering (or other full-time service like Bethel) has always been considered a special privilege and possibiliity for only a relative few. Thus it is NOT deceitful for a child to tell the court about their goals if in fact they do have such desires or goals.

-Eduardo

PS: No, it is not that I like to fight or start fires. I believe in balance and this is just one of those instances where I see somethng posted that is not only in error but conveys a very unbalanced and inaccurate viewpoint. I have read and considered the Child Custody pamphlet quite in depth and contrary to claims by persons such as Duane Magnani and others, it is not a manual for lying or "theocratic strategy" though it is obviously an not unexpectedly biased and imbalanced. I also don't think it particularly good at helping counsel who are unfamiliar with JWs either as clients or in opposition prepare for hearings or trial. Thus, I am working on my own guide for counsel in this area.