Norm

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• 
  11

  Braindead Sis

  by Rex B13 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi gang,.

  i thought you might like to read a relative's reaction when i sent her a url to the guardian article about the latest example of watchtower hypocrisy.

  enjoy!.

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  Norm

  Well Rex,

  Sorry, but this braindead sis sounds exactly like you when you prattle on about your own superstition. It is really sad that you are unable to see it.

  Norm
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  6

  [email protected]: Aiming Coordinates For U.S. Taliban

  by MadApostate in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  [email protected] .

  this is the email address to which everyone here should send at least one email regarding the wts's "associative status" with undpi.. the wts's ngo subject of interest is "human rights".. we should document to undpi that the only "human rights" that the wts is interested in is their right to enslave other humans.. your email doesn't necessarily have to be a "research paper" on disfellowshipping, shunning, shielding of child molestors, etc.

  some of the most effective emails will be those relating the intimate personal experiences of those harmed by the wts's own human rights violations.

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  Norm

  Watchtower literature occasionally publishes articles about Human Rights. Usually when they think these rights are violated in connection with the Watchtower Society and Jehovah's Witnesses. The November 22. 1998. Awake! Magazine dedicates 14 pages to this theme.

  Already on the front page of the magazine the informed reader notices the first serious problem. The Magazine asks if we will ever experience Human Rights for all? Anyone familiar with Watchtower doctrine knows that this is a subtle reference to the future “Kingdom”. As usual the magazine completely omit to mention how this “Kingdom” is to be implemented. There is no mention of the most treasured of Watchtower doctrines and the pride and joy of all faithful Jehovah's Witnesses, namely the hitherto unprecedented genocide that will take place to make the Watchtower “Kingdom” possible. And of course the Awake!, isn’t interested in mentioning the Convention against Genocide, which can be summed up in these words:

  “Convention against Genocide
  This convention bans acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group. It declares genocide a crime under international law whether committed during war or peacetime, and binds all signators of the convention to take measures to prevent and punish any acts of genocide committed within their jurisdiction. The act bans killing of members of any racial, ethnic, national or religious group because of their membership in that group, causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, inflicting on members of the group conditions of life intended to destroy them, imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group, and taking group members' children away from them and giving them to members of another group.”
  (Source: http://www.hrweb.org/legal/undocs.html)

  So in other words, Human Rights Watchtower style is going to be ushered in beginning with the worst Human Right violation in the history of mankind. And this is of course making the Watchtower God the worst Human Right violator ever. Make any sense to you?

  Awake! Goes through the motions with some general information about the history of Human Rights and on pages 8 - 10 there is a short summary about how Human Rights stand today.

  The magazine quotes article 1, of the Human Right declaration:

  “All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.”

  The Watchtower Society and their faithful followers violate this principle grossly because they of course don’t consider any non-witness in such a manner. And of course the Watchtower God doesn’t care much about your rights if you’re not a Jehovah's Witness, or the Christian God if you’re not a Christian.

  Awake!, also mention article 4:

  “No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.”

  What about all the people who are held in servitude by Brooklyn, who has taken their families and loved ones hostage, and keep people enslaved under the threat of Df’ing and shunning?

  When the article goes on to mention article 18, it gets really tragicomic. Article 18 sounds like this:

  “Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.”

  Unbelievable isn’t it? What happens to a Jehovah's Witness who changes his religion? Do Brooklyn and their followers respect this right? Or do they implement sanctions against such a person? In the Jehovah's Witness mind only Catholics and others have this right, and only if they change their religion to being a Jehovah's Witness. After someone has become a Jehovah's Witness this right disappear. What hypocrisy!

  The next article quoted, article 23 is also interesting. Instead of quoting only the last part of the article as Awake!, does I will quote it in full:

  “(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favorable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
  (2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
  (3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favorable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
  (4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.”

  Seeing what section 1 of article 23 say, one can certainly understand why Awake! Didn’t want to quote it. Does Jehovah's Witnesses have a “free choice of employment”? Can they without sanctions from Brooklyn work for Churches, the Military, etc.? Of course not. How’s the pay for Bethel workers? And how many trade unions do they have represented at Bethel?
  The Watchtower track record on Human Rights isn’t much to brag about, is it?

  Awake!, goes on to quote article 25:

  (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
  (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

  As we all know, Jehovah's Witness families are denied the right to decide what kind of medical treatment they want. When it comes planning for their future welfare regarding pensions etc., we all know what effect the Watchtower Society constant shouting about the end being near, have had on such arrangements. Another Watchtower Human Right violation.

  But what about all the other articles which the Awake!, didn’t mention? What about article 5 for example?

  “No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.”

  How about the Watchtower Star Chamber courts? How about DF’ing and shunning? If that isn’t degrading treatment, what is?

  Article 8 should be very interesting for anyone who wants to make the Watchtower Society responsible for their many violations of Human Rights:

  “Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.”

  How does the Watchtower Society live up to article 10?:

  “Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.”

  Does the Watchtower Star Chamber courts live up to these rights? Have Jehovah's Witnesses the right to: “a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal”? We all know the answer to that.

  And what about article 12:

  “No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honor and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.”

  Do Jehovah's Witnesses have this right? Do the Watchtower Society and its elders respect this?

  And how does the Watchtower Society live up to article 19?:

  “Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.”

  Do Jehovah's Witnesses have “freedom of opinion and expression”? Can a Jehovah's Witness express opinions contrary to Brooklyn, without interference? Can a Jehovah's Witness, “seek, receive and impart information” without interference from Brooklyn?

  How does the Watchtower handle the first part of article 21?:

  “(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.”

  What happens to a Jehovah's Witness who tries to exercise this Human Right? Well, we all know the answer to that doesn’t we?

  Then on page 11, the Awake!, states that Human Rights for all is a reality all over the world!
  Responsible for this astonishing feat is according to the Magazine a non-government education program, which is going on all over the world, and it is carried out by (surprise, surprise) non other than, gasp, Jehovah's Witnesses in 230 countries!! According to the Magazine this is all due to a “higher source”. The problem with this reasoning is that this “higher source” is the very same one that is going to carry out the unprecedented genocide, “very soon, any day now”.

  In this part of the Magazine, Human rights seem to boil down to race and not waging war. And then it is introducing the old well know code word for the old millennial “Kingdom”, namely “World government”. But again not a single word is said how this “World government” is to be implemented. The Awake!, concludes by stating that, if you want to know how soon this “World Government” will be a reality, you should allow the Jehovah's Witnesses to study with you, that will give you a satisfactory answer. Yeah right!

  As demonstrated and documented above the Watchtower Society couldn’t care less about human rights, because they violate them all the time. The only interest Brooklyn has for these rights are when they can gain something themselves, by shouting about them. As we can see they have absolutely no intention of granting these rights to their members.

  Norm.
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  17

  UN investigating WTBS for false 1991 application

  by wannahelp in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  because the help line is manned by only one person, marylin suggests calling the un directly because she is being inundated by phone calls from both active and inactive witnesses looking for answers that she cannot provide.. please call the un directly with any questions about this topic.. thank you..

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  Norm

  Watchtower literature occasionally publishes articles about Human Rights. Usually when they think these rights are violated in connection with the Watchtower Society and Jehovah's Witnesses. The November 22. 1998. Awake! Magazine dedicates 14 pages to this theme.

  Already on the front page of the magazine the informed reader notices the first serious problem. The Magazine asks if we will ever experience Human Rights for all? Anyone familiar with Watchtower doctrine knows that this is a subtle reference to the future “Kingdom”. As usual the magazine completely omit to mention how this “Kingdom” is to be implemented. There is no mention of the most treasured of Watchtower doctrines and the pride and joy of all faithful Jehovah's Witnesses, namely the hitherto unprecedented genocide that will take place to make the Watchtower “Kingdom” possible. And of course the Awake!, isn’t interested in mentioning the Convention against Genocide, which can be summed up in these words:

  “Convention against Genocide
  This convention bans acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group. It declares genocide a crime under international law whether committed during war or peacetime, and binds all signators of the convention to take measures to prevent and punish any acts of genocide committed within their jurisdiction. The act bans killing of members of any racial, ethnic, national or religious group because of their membership in that group, causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, inflicting on members of the group conditions of life intended to destroy them, imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group, and taking group members' children away from them and giving them to members of another group.”
  (Source: http://www.hrweb.org/legal/undocs.html)

  So in other words, Human Rights Watchtower style is going to be ushered in beginning with the worst Human Right violation in the history of mankind. And this is of course making the Watchtower God the worst Human Right violator ever. Make any sense to you?

  Awake! Goes through the motions with some general information about the history of Human Rights and on pages 8 - 10 there is a short summary about how Human Rights stand today.

  The magazine quotes article 1, of the Human Right declaration:

  “All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.”

  The Watchtower Society and their faithful followers violate this principle grossly because they of course don’t consider any non-witness in such a manner. And of course the Watchtower God doesn’t care much about your rights if you’re not a Jehovah's Witness, or the Christian God if you’re not a Christian.

  Awake!, also mention article 4:

  “No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.”

  What about all the people who are held in servitude by Brooklyn, who has taken their families and loved ones hostage, and keep people enslaved under the threat of Df’ing and shunning?

  When the article goes on to mention article 18, it gets really tragicomic. Article 18 sounds like this:

  “Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.”

  Unbelievable isn’t it? What happens to a Jehovah's Witness who changes his religion? Do Brooklyn and their followers respect this right? Or do they implement sanctions against such a person? In the Jehovah's Witness mind only Catholics and others have this right, and only if they change their religion to being a Jehovah's Witness. After someone has become a Jehovah's Witness this right disappear. What hypocrisy!

  The next article quoted, article 23 is also interesting. Instead of quoting only the last part of the article as Awake!, does I will quote it in full:

  “(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favorable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
  (2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
  (3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favorable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
  (4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.”

  Seeing what section 1 of article 23 say, one can certainly understand why Awake! Didn’t want to quote it. Does Jehovah's Witnesses have a “free choice of employment”? Can they without sanctions from Brooklyn work for Churches, the Military, etc.? Of course not. How’s the pay for Bethel workers? And how many trade unions do they have represented at Bethel?
  The Watchtower track record on Human Rights isn’t much to brag about, is it?

  Awake!, goes on to quote article 25:

  (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
  (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

  As we all know, Jehovah's Witness families are denied the right to decide what kind of medical treatment they want. When it comes planning for their future welfare regarding pensions etc., we all know what effect the Watchtower Society constant shouting about the end being near, have had on such arrangements. Another Watchtower Human Right violation.

  But what about all the other articles which the Awake!, didn’t mention? What about article 5 for example?

  “No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.”

  How about the Watchtower Star Chamber courts? How about DF’ing and shunning? If that isn’t degrading treatment, what is?

  Article 8 should be very interesting for anyone who wants to make the Watchtower Society responsible for their many violations of Human Rights:

  “Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.”

  How does the Watchtower Society live up to article 10?:

  “Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.”

  Does the Watchtower Star Chamber courts live up to these rights? Have Jehovah's Witnesses the right to: “a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal”? We all know the answer to that.

  And what about article 12:

  “No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honor and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.”

  Do Jehovah's Witnesses have this right? Do the Watchtower Society and its elders respect this?

  And how does the Watchtower Society live up to article 19?:

  “Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.”

  Do Jehovah's Witnesses have “freedom of opinion and expression”? Can a Jehovah's Witness express opinions contrary to Brooklyn, without interference? Can a Jehovah's Witness, “seek, receive and impart information” without interference from Brooklyn?

  How does the Watchtower handle the first part of article 21?:

  “(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.”

  What happens to a Jehovah's Witness who tries to exercise this Human Right? Well, we all know the answer to that doesn’t we?

  Then on page 11, the Awake!, states that Human Rights for all is a reality all over the world!
  Responsible for this astonishing feat is according to the Magazine a non-government education program, which is going on all over the world, and it is carried out by (surprise, surprise) non other than, gasp, Jehovah's Witnesses in 230 countries!! According to the Magazine this is all due to a “higher source”. The problem with this reasoning is that this “higher source” is the very same one that is going to carry out the unprecedented genocide, “very soon, any day now”.

  In this part of the Magazine, Human rights seem to boil down to race and not waging war. And then it is introducing the old well know code word for the old millennial “Kingdom”, namely “World government”. But again not a single word is said how this “World government” is to be implemented. The Awake!, concludes by stating that, if you want to know how soon this “World Government” will be a reality, you should allow the Jehovah's Witnesses to study with you, that will give you a satisfactory answer. Yeah right!

  As demonstrated and documented above the Watchtower Society couldn’t care less about human rights, because they violate them all the time. The only interest Brooklyn has for these rights are when they can gain something themselves, by shouting about them. As we can see they have absolutely no intention of granting these rights to their members.

  Norm.
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  6

  PARADISE HOPE FOR THE NON-RELIGIOUS APOSTATE

  by Ranchette in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  yes, we non-religious apostates have our paradise fantasies too.

  most of us let go of the fantasy of living forever on a paradise earth for another hope.

  the one we hope in is a little more realistic than the one we have left behind.. we have accepted that we dont have all the answers about god and an afterlife.

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  Norm

  Hi Ranchette,

  You said:

  Our hope is that one day our friends and family will be freed from the bondage of mind and body to the Watchtower Society or any other destructive belief system!

  I second that hope. It is indeed sad to watch people struggle with this old superstition. If we take Christianity for example, an agressive religion which see itself superior to all other and preach a message of doom to all those who do not share their superstitious ideas of Jesus.

  Think about how much tragedy, pain and suffering that have been caused by their "missionary" activity, where they have pushed their brand of superstition on people with "inferior" superstition.

  It will still take thousands of years, but one day we will hopefully have been able to rid ourselves of this evil curse of religion. John Lennon's song "Imagine" should be our hymn.

  Take care,

  Norm
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  22

  Walter Salter's Letter 4 Newbies

  by Farkel in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  several people have asked me about walter salter's letter menntioning smuggling cases of liquor for grudge rutherford.

  i doubt that a letter more damning for da judge than this one could ever have been written:.

  box no.

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  Norm

  Hi there FreePeace,

  You said:

  You must understand that I, like everyone else, have spent a lifetime accepting "stuff" from the bORG without question. I don't do that anymore. I would like to see the original letter. This letter is an important piece of evidence against Rutherford, as well as the Society.

  I do understand it very well and I do not mind you being sceptic. I have seen a copy of the original letter myself. How to get to the actual original I have no idea. Maybe Alan can shed a light on that.

  If you noticed these lines from the Watchtower in my post above:

  A. G. Cameron, former company servant and friend of Salter, raised his voice in favor of the latter, stating amongst his remarks, “I know the article in question; I have read it, and read it carefully. It is true that Brother Salter has challenged Brother Rutheford to answer it point by point, and I now challenge you, Brother Chapman, to answer it point by point and deal with it faithfully, because I firmly believe that the church has arrived at the crossroads. Up to this day we have all followed men, blind leaders of the blind and all making to the ditch. It cannot be denied that as an organization we have been mistaken in the past many times, and it cannot be denied that we are mistaken now”

  You will notice that Mr. Cameron was clearly refering to the very valid points about the dealings of Rutherford brought up by Salter in his letter.

  Take care,

  Norm
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  5

  Patriotism, media credibility, and the bottom line

  by Seeker in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  interesting story about the media:.

  http://www.sunspot.net/news/printedition/bal-to.media04oct04.story.

  in a thread a few weeks back, i mentioned my belief that the corporations that had bought up the media outlets were more interested in profits for shareholders than objective reporting.

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  Norm

  Hi Seeker and Julie,

  I agree with your observations. It seem to be that the bigger the country the less interest there is about the outside world. This of course is the cause of staggering ignorance. Personally I have many times been astonished at the display of such ignorance about any other country or what's happening outside the US. The similarity of statements made by US citicens and soviet citizens during the cold war is amazing. Both populations was in general of the opinion that they had the best living conditions in the whole world. One can understand how the soviets came to that conclusion, being told so incessantly by the soviet media, and without the possiblity of checking with the outside world. The US citicen however had and still have that opportunity but still remain generally just as ignorant.

  To hear people who have hardly ever been outside their native state go on about America being the best country in the world and how they would't live anywhere else, is just plain and utter stupid.

  Not that I would mind living in the US but is in NO WAY the best country in the world to live in!

  On my way over to "God's own country" on Wednesday on the plane from Paris, I read an interesting article in USA Today:

  “Some see that as reason to lift the ban. "We're in a different world, where we've got a president who needs to build coalitions and build them quickly," says Sen. Judd Gregg, R-N.H. "We need to give him the tools to do that."

  But Sen. Barbara Mikulski, DMd., says: "We now have a floating coalition. We can't have floating arms." If Bush wins even a partial waiver of the arms embargo, it wouldn't be the first time the United States has made common cause with undemocratic or unstable regimes to fight a common enemy. But some lawmakers wonder whether the benefits of such friendships outweigh the fallout.

  Past examples:
  
  During World War 11, the United States and Great Britain joined forces with Soviet dictator Josef Stalin to defeat Adolf Hitler. Stalin went on to build an "Iron Curtain" that took 50 years to bring down.
  
  During the 1960s and'70s, the United States shored up one South Vietnamese dictatorship after another in the hopes of holding North Vietnam at bay. When South Vietnam fell, the victorious Communists took possession of an enormous amount of abandoned U.S. military hardware.
  
  During the 1970s and'80s, the United States gave military equipment and other assistance to the teetering government of Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlevi in Iran, considered a key bulwark against communism. When he was ousted by a popular uprising, the Islamic fundamentalist government of Iran was left with a fleet of F-16 fighter jets and other weapons. In Afghanistan, the CIA ran a supposedly covert operation that was one of the worst kept secrets of the 1980s. Along with money and other aid, the US. government provided Afghan guerrillas with an undisclosed number of Stinger missiles. Introduction of the Stingers in 1986 proved the turning point of the 10-year war. When the Soviets retreated in 1989, the United States tried to buy back the remaining handheld anti-aircraft weapons. That effort was not successful.

  Many officials in the intelligence community say they do not believe many Stingers remain in Afghanistan. They also say it's unlikely such a sophisticated piece of equipment
  could remain usable this long in that country's harsh environment. Nonetheless, key U.S. policymakers say military leaders must take the possibility of Stingers into account if they go after bin Laden.

  "I don't think there's any illusion by our military as to the possibility that a lot of the weapons, or some of the weapons, could be turned on us," says Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama, top Republican on the Senate Select Intelligence Committee.

  That's why some lawmakers are balking at Bush's proposal. "We've certainly seen from past experience we've got to be very careful who we give our military assistance to," says Rep. Nita Lowey, D-N.Y. "I would not agree to give the administration carte blanche." USA Today October 2, 2001

  To furhter short term goals I am afraid that the Bush administration yet again is about to form alliances and give weapons to groups they after some time will be in conflict with. Some things seem never to change.

  Arriving in the US I was again amazed at the amount of flagwaving and ads with the flag and the logo of some corporation on it. One of the most tasteless advertizing I have ever seen TV was selling all kinds of apparatus to festoon your car, trailer or other vehicles with flags.

  One is reminded of Bob Dylan' words: "Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings"

  Norm
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  22

  Walter Salter's Letter 4 Newbies

  by Farkel in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  several people have asked me about walter salter's letter menntioning smuggling cases of liquor for grudge rutherford.

  i doubt that a letter more damning for da judge than this one could ever have been written:.

  box no.

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  Norm

  More Salter material

  Looking at the Watchtower literature from 1937 and 1939 it becomes quite clear that Salter’s information about Rutherford really had hit a nerve. Particularly in 1937 there was a lot of damage control to do. I have so far looked at one such in the Watchtower of May 15. 1937 and it is very interesting. Apparently Salter had through a contact in Brooklyn sent out a letter to most of the ”companies” (congregations) in Canada on official Watchtower paper. The Watchtower article thus starts with the following:

  ”LETTERS RE EVIL SERVANT
  DEAR BROTHER RUTHERFORD
  Re Salter’s letter: The following telegram was: sent from this Office on, Saturday morning to each large company in Canada:
  “Salter's letter and instruction not from Society. . . Fraudulent, Ignore it.”
  The Watchtower, May 15. 1937, page 159.

  After this follows a report from a meeting held in the Toronto Company about Salter.
  It is interesting to note that in those days they involved the whole congregation is such séances and that they were much more unsophisticated and less secretive about everything. The treatment this matter got during this meeting gives a very good insight in the old Watchtower tradition of not having any interest whatsoever in facts and truth. Salter wasn’t present and no one was really allowed to speak for him. A friend of Salter A. F. Cameron told those present that he had read the letter and that they should deal with the points it raised. In typical Watchtower tradition this was rejected and in the same tradition Cameron was subjected to a vicious personal attack. The points Salter raised in his letter to Rutherford would be impossible to deal with because it showed President Rutherford as he really was.
  As always the only thing interesting was blind loyalty to the “organization”. Anyway read for yourself:

  “April 12, 1937
  On Saturday evening a meeting was arranged and the following were present: The servant of companies, his assistant, Brother Sinclair a faithful brother who has been long associated with the Toronto company and myself. It was decided that the following afternoon at the time of the assembly of ail the units for service discussion, a motion be introduced to disfellowship W. F. Salter from the Toronto company.
  Sunday afternoon at the service meeting I was in the chair, and toward the end of the meeting the position was laid before the brethren of whom there would be between 300 and 400 assembled The envelope with the Society 's address and, the printed letter to yourself from Salter were displayed, and the covering unsigned instructions were read to the company so that the brethren should realize the wickedness of those who were responsible for this, action. Many of the elder, brethren expressed their disgust at such an action. Brother Sinclair then came forward and read to the church the matter prepared. A copy of this is enclosed.
  Someone in the hall then raised the question whether Brother Salter was present, and the chairman stated that if he were he would be able to hear for himself what was being said, and if he were not, he would be notified.
  A. G. Cameron, former company servant and friend of Salter, raised his voice in favor of the latter, stating amongst his remarks, “I know the article in question; I have read it, and read it carefully. It is true that Brother Salter has challenged Brother Rutheford to answer it point by point, and I now challenge you, Brother Chapman, to answer it point by point and deal with it faithfully, because I firmly believe that the church has arrived at the crossroads. Up to this day we have all followed men, blind leaders of the blind and all making to the ditch. It cannot be denied that as an organization we have been mistaken in the past many times, and it cannot be denied that we are mistaken now:” To this the answer was given from the chair: “l am glad you have shown yourself at last Brother Cameron. It has taken you twelve months to show yourself in your true colors.” The whole company evidenced their agreement by an unusual outburst 'of clapping.
  Pointed remarks where then made by Brother Guest regarding Salter, showing that for at least three years he had not been in harmony with the organization. A sister in the rear of the hall (afterwards confirmed to be Salter’s former stenographer) asked if she might speak. It was ruled by the chairman, however that the brothers were capable of dealing with the matter. Other brothers then expressed themselves in no uncertain way regarding their attitude toward this scheme to hurt the Lord's people. Cameron endeavored to hold the floor again no doubt trying to regain something he had lost. The time was getting on and there had been ample discussions to clearly show what was the mind of the church on the motion, and therefore the chairman did not give permission for him to speak further. Cameron shouted out several times and refused to recognize the ruling of the chair. The company was then appealed to by the chairman as to whether they wanted to hear Cameron or not, and they replied with a great shout “No”
  Brother Sinclair was then called upon to again read and move the resolution. It was seconded, and the whole church were in favor, with the exception of three, dissenting votes. These were Cameron, his daughter and G. Richardson. The meeting then closed. This morning the servant of companies is sending a copy of the resolution passed by the church to W. F. Salter by registered mail, so that we will be sure he receives it.” The Watchtower May 15. 1937, page 159.

  As we can see Cameron was no doubt a decent and courageous man and genuinely disturbed by the horrible injustice, but he was like so many before and after him, very naive. It is also almost amusingly predictable the way they mention the woman in the back of the hall, who wanted to speak, but of course, first of all she was a woman, and the later confirmed fact that she had once been Salter’s stenographer automatically robbed her of all credibility anyway. We should all fall down on our knees and be grateful that the “worldly” courts don’t operate this way.

  Then follows a copy of the resolution accepted by the Toronto Company:

  “COPY OF RESOLUTION PREPARED AND MOVED BY BROTHER
  W. A. SINCLAIR, AND PASSED
  Almost a year ago the Society's president, Brother Rutherford saw fit to remove from office one to whom for years had looked with confidence for leadership in the Lord’s work here in Toronto. At the time, and subsequently through The Watchtower and Year Book for 1937, the principles underlying this course of action and the reason for it were expressed. At the time that the change of servant took effect many in our midst looked for some word from the brother discharged to indicate sorrow, repentance or reformation in his attitude toward the Society and brethren. Since that time, many others have patiently waited for some statement tending to clear the situation Many have wondered as to the course of action to take. Thus far, no public acknowledgment has been made. In the last month or two, Brother Rutherford has quietly made arrangements for the greatest and strangest campaign against the enemy organization that has ever been undertaken under the Lord's direction. On the eve of that campaign the Devil has seen fit to throw (as he thought) a bombshell into our midst, and we, as well as others, are in receipt of printed matter to be read among and disseminated among the brethren and purporting to be sent by the Society. Associated with this literature is the name of W. P. Salter. Needless to say, a serious consideration of this matter would, to say the least, lead to doubt and dissension among the brethren. I therefore move the following resolution:

  “That in view of the facts set forth above, we, the company Jehovah's Witnesses in Toronto and vicinity, failing to receive in the course of the next seven days, in writing, a clear statement of sorrow, repentance and reformation from the brother, do hereby disfellowship'' the one known as Brother W. F. Salter.” The Watchtower May 15. 1937, page 159.

  After this, the Watchtower prints some of the worst, boot licking, butt kissing and sucking up to, I have ever read in the English language. It is written by an apparently professional “nodder and yes-man”, P. Chapman who had been brought over from London to take over as manager in Canada, after Salter. Read for yourself:

  “April 16, 1937
  Dear BROTHER RUTHERFORD
  To hand this morning is a further letter published by Salter. It was forwarded by Brother Hersee, who is at present doing a little pioneer work in Port Huron. I am forwarding this to you immediately in case it has not yet been brought to your attention. This is the first one to come to our notice. I feel compelled to write a word to you that you may know of my love for you. It has been my privilege to work in the Society’s Office, for the last fourteen years, and during that time I have grown to truly love you because you magnify Jehovah’s name. Year after year your fearlessness in boldly facing all manners of opposition to publicly hold forth the Word of life, in exposing the Devil’s schemes and all forms of false worship in the church as well as out of it, in assisting Jehovah’s anointed and the people of good will, is complete testimony to your unselfish devotion to Jehovah, and that his favor, protection and blessing is with you in its fullness.
  Your love for the brethren has been demonstrated over and over again by considering their needs. This is true, not only concerning the pioneers, but also toward the Bethel family in London, with whom I was privileged to associate and serve for many years. Your stay at the Bethel home in London was always a joy to look forward to. We knew you had our interests at heart, and you never spared yourself to find ways and means to show your love for us, and make us happy in the Lord and in his service. This is without contradiction. It has been my experience to know you as an elder brother; yes and time and time again as a father and true counselor.
  Again I repeat that I love and respect you as the president of the Society, because Jehovah has honored you with his great service. I know from personal experience that you are true, just and full of love for Jehovah and his people, who are your brethren.
  The Bethel family also go on record as declaring their love for you, and that not out of hearsay, but out of close association with you. I am pleased to enclose with my own above declaration the one sent from the whole Bethel family.
  Your brother and servant in the Lord,
  P. Chapman
  The Watchtower May 15. 1937, page 159-60.

  After this we get some more nauseating boot licking worship of Rutherford. First from the Bethel family in Toronto, who really felt the need for a major CYA operation and went into grovel mode in no uncertain manner:

  “DEAR BROTHER RUTHERFORD
  Twelve months ago you saw fit to remove form office W. F. Salter, who had been reported to you as not being loyal to the organization, and now, after 12 months, he has clearly shown his hand as being against the Lord the Society and yourself. Therefore, we, the Bethel family at Toronto, make known the following:
  That for years W. F. Salter showed himself to be thoroughly selfish, egotistical, and had an undue sense of his own importance. He had not been loyal to you nor to the organization. From the platform and in private conversation, he would consistently try to undermine your influence in the minds if the friends, and impress them with his own ideas. Also that for years he questioned that which came from the Watch Tower, questioned the evidence of the Lord’s being at His temple, and endeavored to put doubts into the minds of the brethren as to Jehovah and Christ Jesus being our teachers. For this man now to pose as loving the Lord and his people clearly marks him as a hypocrite and a liar. Therefore we go on record that our full devotion is toward the Lord and the interests of his kingdom. Not only have we full confidence in the Lord that He is directing His organization and His work, but also that He has placed you in charge of the direction of the earthly affairs of His people.
  This family is now at unity, whole-hearted in Jehovah’s service, and now dwells in peace, and unanimously sends this statement to you.
  With our warm love to you, we are,
  Your Bethel family at Toronto.”
  The Watchtower May 15. 1937, page 160.

  Then followed a more “normal” declaration of loyalty from an assembly:

  “Thankful to Jehovah
  Dear Brother Rutherford
  Jehovah’s publishers at the Victoria (B.C.) assembly of Jehovah's Witnesses take this opportunity of publicly expressing to Jehovah our appreciation and thankfulness for the privilege of declaring his great name; carrying his message to the people of good will and exposing the wicked Roman Catholic Hierarchy and those allied with them. We wish to convey to you our expression of loyalty and faithfulness to the Society, the visible organization of Jehovah. We are thankful to Jehovah for The Watchtower, bringing to us the food convenient and the necessary instructions that we maintain our integrity. We are encouraged by our own loving zeal and courageous example in declaring Jehovah’s judgments and exposing every part of Satan’s wicked organization.” With confidence we look to the complete overthrow of Satan’s organization and the vindication of the great and glorious name of Jehovah. This resolution was adopted by all present.”
  The Watchtower May 15. 1937, page 160.

  As we can see, the whole thing was about loyalty to the organization. Like when Stalin was rooting out disloyal elements in the Soviet Union, people was falling over each other, competing in declaring themselves the most loyal, this was also the case in the Watchtower Society. Not a pretty sight. That anyone can ever think of this organization as having anything to do with God is beyond me.

  Norm.
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  22

  Walter Salter's Letter 4 Newbies

  by Farkel in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  several people have asked me about walter salter's letter menntioning smuggling cases of liquor for grudge rutherford.

  i doubt that a letter more damning for da judge than this one could ever have been written:.

  box no.

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  Norm

  Rutherford hated Salters guts and as the complete lunatic he was he proved it beyond doubt just read this, I have posted it earlier:

  "Have you ever hated someone? I mean really hated! Hated so much that you consider him to be the Beast of Revelation or similar? Well, some of us might at one time have hated someone to this extent but very few of us have actually been crazy enough to go out and find a Bible prophecy which we could twist and bend into being fulfilled on this abominable person[s].
  Then again, very few if us have our own cult, with unlimited access to publishing books and magazines no matter what insanities they contain. But suppose you were in that position and was loony enough, would you do it? Well, good old “Booze” Rutherford had the opportunity and he took it. Let us take a look at this masterpiece of “Biblical scholarship” and “meat in due season” from “Jehovah’s channel”.

  In a series of articles in the Watchtower in 1937, Rutherford was showing his madness in full flight.
  In the Watchtower of April 15, 1937, he printed part 6, which had the title: “DRAMA OF VINDICATION”. Rutherford seemed totally obsessed with “Vindication”. As we know Jehovah is supposed to vindicate himself by butchering more people than ever before in human history, no one has of course ever explained how such an act can vindicate anyone. Rutherford, like all Watchtower leaders after him put great emphasis on obedience training. As usual unquestioning obedience is an absolute:

  “The creature that receives God's approval must be obedient. That unchangeable rule applies to all of his creatures. When God made a covenant with Israel he emphasized the necessity for full and complete obedience.”
  The Watchtower, April, 15. 1939, page 115.

  Of course Rutherford wouldn’t stand for anything less than Jehovah. So he as Jehovah’s elected president naturally wanted full unquestioning obedience too.

  To cut a very long-winded story short, here is where the article explains the plot and identifies the good guy’s and the baddies:

  “5 The "accursed thing" at that time was Jericho, and at the present time it is the religious organization and allies called "Christendom". The thing is accursed because doomed for complete destruction by Jehovah's Executive Officer, and to be destroyed for the reason that the thing is an abomination in the sight of God and a reproach to his holy name. Achan, in violation of the expressed command given by Joshua, had greedily taken away from Jericho some things that his avaricious heart desired. The manner of his taking such things is described in verses twenty and twenty one of the seventh chapter of the book of Joshua. "Achan" means "trouble", and those who follow in his course always get into trouble. Mention is made of the incident in another place in the Bible, where he is called "Achar", meaning "troublesome". "And the sons of Carmi: Achar, the troubler of Israel, who transgressed in the thing accursed." (1 Chron. 2: 7) That Achan, or Achar, therefore, pictures those spirit begotten ones in line for the kingdom and who become unfaithful and who bring trouble upon Jehovah’s organization.”The Watchtower, April, 15. 1939, page 116.

  As we can see, Jericho was “at the present time “Christendom”. But Rutherford wasn’t just an ordinary lunatic, and like any ”true believer” fundy, when he was displaying his idiocy he liked to do it thoroughly, so he even timed his insane prophecy:

  “This part of the prophetic drama occurred immediately following the siege of Jericho, and applies in the fulfillment after 1931, and more particularly after 1933, after which the march around the antitypical Jericho had begun.”
  The Watchtower, April, 15. 1939, page 116.

  Well, apparently in some state of delirium he cooked up this utterly insane stuff and from here on in, everything only gets worse. But by all means, try to hang on. According to the Bible Joshua sent people to spy on the town of Ai after Jericho was laid in ruins. Now what was the antitype of Ai?:

  “Look now to the fulfillment of this part of the prophetic drama, and the action taken by Joshua against Ai pictures the activities of the remnant of Jehovah's witnesses from and after A.D. 1933 against Satan's organization, particularly the religionists on the earth. Some serious details are shown which are not set out in relation to the siege and destruction of Jericho. Joshua sent men as spies to get a close up view of Ai, foretelling Christ Jesus would send his men to get a closer view of the Devil's visible organization, that it might be more particularly exposed by his faithful servants. After 1933 the profound exposure of the Devil's chief earthly instrument took place, which gave Jehovah's witnesses an additional close up view of that wicked organization.” The Watchtower, April, 15. 1939, page 116.

  So Ai was “Satan's organization, particularly the religionists on the earth.” And “after 1933” it was “exposed” by the Jehovah's Witnesses. As usual we get the typical ranting about some totally unknown and insignificant event that is supposed to be a fulfillment of a Bible prophecy and which of course not a Jehovah's Witness alive today know anything about:

  “On April 23, 1933, the speech was broadcast on the subject "Effect of Holy Year on Peace and Prosperity", disclosing the close alliance and association of the Roman Catholic Hierarchy with the political and commercial elements that misrule the nations; and that forced the Hierarchy into the open and exposed them, as being against Jehovah and his Kingdom. The facts brought forth in 1935 by the Lord's direction clearly disclosed that the Roman Catholic Hierarchy constitute the modern day Philistines, fighting against the modern Samson, God's anointed people on the earth.”
  The Watchtower, April, 15. 1939, page 116.

  Today, not even the “faithful Jehovah's Witnesses’s” has a clue about these “fulfillment’s”. Anyway, the attack on “Ai” went wrong for Jehovah's Witnesses. Who was the culprit? It was Achan. Who then was the antitypical Achan? Well, maybe you have guessed it already. We get to know that he was very active in Canada:

  “Disaster followed that assault, and the Israelites were compelled to run away after the men of Ai chased them. Ai ark now some of the facts that came to pass in fulfillment. The aforequoted unscriptural and unsound argument was put forth vigorously in some parts of the earth, and for a time the field work, particularly in Canada, lagged behind and many became indifferent.” The Watchtower, April, 15. 1939, page 117.

  The article winds on about Achan and “his modern day antitype” which is again alluded to here:

  “20 It was about 1933 or shortly thereafter that one occupying a position of responsibility in the Lord's organization, and who was aided and abetted by some of his personal admirers, tried to gain something for selfish reasons. A course contrary to instructions had been taken concerning the Canadian radio stations, while at the same time that party pretended to be striving solely for the vindication of Jehovah’s name and for the downfall of Satan's organization.” The Watchtower, April, 15. 1939, page 119.

  Anybody who knew about W. F. Salter was of course able to understand who it was. But in true Watchtower doublespeak and tradition Achan was also a “class”:

  “True, there must be some outstanding individual that takes the lead in such matters, but the fulfillment of the picture applies to all who are of that class; and therefore Achan pictured not particularly an individual, but all of that class of persons who become members of the "evil servant" class.” The Watchtower, April, 15. 1939, page 121.

  Elsewhere in the article it is made abundantly clear who Achan really was:

  “That one person, together with some of his supporters, continued to trouble the Society by sending letters to radio stations and to religionists known to be avowed enemies of God's organization, and to others, wherein threats were made "to break up the organization of the Society within two years".
  The Watchtower, April, 15. 1939, page 124.

  There is no doubt that Rutherford really was having problems with all the information that Salter had provided for the general public. The way he heap scorn and hate on Salter (Achan) page up and page down in the Watchtower really gives us a good idea to which extent this was bothering him.
  This was of course not a very sophisticated way of dealing with the problem, but Salter apparently had been so successful in broadcasting his information that Rutherford thought he had little to loose by this tactic. Anyway, in true Watchtower spirit he was taking every possible step to prevent the individual Jehovah's Witnesses from reading any of Salters material. This is how it was done:

  “The sinful course of Achan caused the Israelites to determine that they would be more diligent in obeying the Lord; and the subsequent facts show that a like influence directed the course of God's faithful people of the remnant, as shown by resolutions adopted and published by them, a sample of which resolutions appears in The Watchtower June 1, 1937, and, amongst other things, contains the following:
  "Almost a year has now passed since (under the Lord's direction) as president of the Society you removed from office one W. P. Salter, to whom we had long looked for leadership in the service, but who had become unfaithful to his charge.
  "At that time some could not quite clearly see the reason for such action. We had, however, implicit confidence in Jehovah and that the steps there taken were under his direction.
  "Subsequent events not only have fully justified this faith and confidence in Jehovah, and yourself as the one used in this connection, but also have made clearly to appear why this action was necessary.
  "Because of the fact that the Lord's people are being, from. this source, now subjected to a barrage of literature calculated to undermine and overthrow their faith, we, the Toronto company of Jehovah’s witnesses, at a joyous assembly on this the eighteenth day of April, nineteen hundred and thirtyseven, unanimously adopt the following resolution, to wit:
  “1. That we fully endorse the action of our president, Brother Rutherford, in thus removing from office one who so manifestly had, by his course of action, said, 'The table of the Lord is contemptible,' and who had 'snuffed' at what is spread on that table, by 'offering polluted bread upon the altar'.
  "2. That, as a means for our protection, we will meet this latest move of the enemy with "(a) Increased activity and interest in the Lord's service, especially in the new 'strange work' just beginning and also the studies in The Watchtower and other publications of the Society. "(b) That we will destroy without reading any such literature received through the mail or otherwise. "(c) That we will turn a deaf ear to any, either among us or outside, who manifests a desire to debate or argue respecting this course of action.
  "3. That * we acknowledge as the visible organization of Jehovah on earth the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, and recognize the Society as the channel or instrument through which Jehovah and Christ Jesus give instruction and meat in due season to the household of faith.
  "4. Further, that we pledge our faith in and loyalty to the Society, and its servants, Brother Rutherford at Brooklyn, and also the branch servant, Brother Chapman at Toronto; that we are pleased and thankful for his appointment in charge of the Lord's work in our midst. We wish to say that, the company following your instructions, working under the unit arrangement, and because of the zeal manifested by the branch servant, Brother Chapman, never before has the interest in and on behalf of the Lord's work been so keenly aroused nor has there ever been such a manifestation of activity as now. We pledge our co operation to the fullest extent with him in the work, and, together with you, pray that the Lord will smite His enemy to the dust and shine forth in Kingdom glory.
  "5. That we once more express our united determination to do the will of Jehovah as expressed through his executive officer, Christ Jesus. That, in obedience to God's commandments, having heard the call, 'Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle,' we will carry forth the fruits of the kingdom to our brethren, the great multitude, who must be led and fed by Christ Jesus before Armageddon and may be preserved at Armageddon in vindication of Jehovah’s name. The Watchtower June 1937, page 175.”

  This resolution was of course “adopted unanimously” by the “faithful” in the various assemblies, also by those who had no idea who Salter was. This “modus operandi” has been followed by all “faithful” Jehovah's Witnesses to this day:

  "2. That, as a means for our protection, we will meet this latest move of the enemy with
  "(a) Increased activity and interest in the Lord's service, especially in the new 'strange work' just beginning and also the studies in The Watchtower and other publications of the Society.
  "(b) That we will destroy without reading any such literature received through the mail or otherwise.
  "(c) That we will turn a deaf ear to any, either among us or outside, who manifests a desire to debate or argue respecting this course of action.
  "3. That * we acknowledge as the visible organization of Jehovah on earth the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, and recognize the Society as the channel or instrument through which Jehovah and Christ Jesus give instruction and meat in due season to the household of faith.
  "4. Further, that we pledge our faith in and loyalty to the Society, and its servants, Brother Rutherford at Brooklyn, and also the branch servant, Brother Chapman at Toronto; that we are pleased and thankful for his appointment in charge of the Lord's work in our midst.” The Watchtower June 1937, page 175.

  We all naturally understand that in a free and thinking society it is necessary to: “destroy without reading” anything critical of the Watchtower Society. That is the only way Jehovah's Witnesses maintain their “truth”. Information and facts are mortal enemies of the Watchtower “truth”, as we get so many excellent demonstrations of whenever we encounter a “faithful” Jehovah's Witnesses apologist. Many of us have observed that the “faithful and loyal” Jehovah's Witnesses: “will turn a deaf ear to any, either among us or outside, who manifests a desire to debate or argue..”

  The Watchtower Society has come a long way since Rutherford. Not that it has changed for the better, but it is far more sophisticated. It would never write an article branding Raymond Franz by the name, “Achan”, thus advertising his books. The “resolutions” passed in today’s assemblies isn’t quite that obviously boot licking as they were in Rutherford’s days. I think that even the most die hard loyalist Witness would choke a bit on this: “Further, that we pledge our faith in and loyalty to the Society, and its servants, Brother Rutherford at Brooklyn, and also the branch servant, Brother Chapman at Toronto; that we are pleased and thankful for his appointment in charge of the Lord's work in our midst.”

  But of course there doesn’t seem to be any limit to what the Theocratic obedience training can accomplish with the truly brain dead. Rutherford’s interpretation of the Jericho story is of course not receiving much attention in today’s Watchtower literature, although there are some people today who actually remember this insane drivel. One such person was actually stupid enough to mention it in the Watchtower, March 1. 1998, page 21:

  *** w98 3/1 21 Grateful for a Strong Christian Heritage ***
  Father insisted that every Saturday evening our whole family share together in a Bible study. Our study centered on the Bible subject in The Watchtower scheduled for discussion the following day. Illustrating the impact these studies had, to this day the account about Joshua and the siege of the city of Ai discussed in The Watchtower of May 1, 1939, is still vivid in my mind. I was so intrigued by that account that I checked all the references to it in my own Bible. I found such research fascinating—and still do.

  And as with all the other insane blunders of the Watchtower Society it was of course “meat in due season”. What a mess! Apparently it didn’t bother Gwen Gooch much that the article she referred to and “checked all the references” to, was pure drivel as at least now should be quite obvious, even to her.

  Another interesting piece of information about the Salter incident can be found in a Yearbook:

  *** yb86 202 Nigeria ***
  In 1939 S. A. Adediji, who was then working in the branch office, received an article that argued that the Lord Jesus Christ was not present. A covering letter pretended that it came from the Society’s headquarters and instructed that it be read in the various congregations at a stated time. Brother Brown was temporarily away. Adediji knew that the article had come from a Canadian apostate named Salter. He knew that The Watchtower of June 1, 1937, had reported that Salter had been disfellowshipped, and that it had been resolved to “destroy without reading any such literature received through the mail or otherwise.” Yet he sent out instructions that copies of the article should be read and discussed at one of the meetings of each congregation in Nigeria. Much harm resulted in a number of congregations as a result of this. In time, the tendency that Adediji there manifested caused him to withdraw from the organization, and he went back to being an Anglican clergyman.

  No doubt Rutherford had a lot of reason to be upset about Salter. Reading Salters letter to Rutherford of course reveal that the information he presented must have been extremely interesting to every Jehovah's Witnesses at the time. None of us modern “apostates” have reached such repute that we have been personally honored with our own prophecy fulfillment. These days the Watchtower restrict itself to ordering every loyal Jehovah's Witness to hate us all and an occasional invitation to a banquet, not as guest mind you, but as “the main course”.

  Norm.

  P.S. So to all of you "doubters" out there who don't think that the Salter letter is genuine, you have now got the proof from the Watchtower itself that such a letter was indeed written and that the points it raised really hit a "nerve" as can be seen from the strong reactions and the enormeous damage control operation that was launched.
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  24

  The thoughts of real True Believers

  by Norm in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the friday 28 issue of washington post had some very interesting information about documents found in one of the terrorist hijackers luggage.

  these documents give us a good insight into the minds of religious fanatics and their thinking.

  all of you other true believers, christians and otherwise, can learn a lot of true faith from those documents.

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  Norm

  Rex,

  Well done Rex, it is the first time I have seen you actually attempt to answer.

  You said:

  Norm,
  I guess you just refuse to recognize the obvious answers within my post. Let's make it real simple.

  1) God is in complete control of the universe.
  2) He has obviously allowed His creation to have free will and determine their own fates within His limits. Choosing good or evil is our choice and we are responsible for that.

  I see, so I was right all along, he didn’t care so he didn’t do anything. Is this how you treat your children Rex? Let them do whatever they want while watching? Why pray to this God? What’s the use?

  a) God does not try nor tempt with evil.
  b) God limits evil and acts to rectify or dampen it's effects.
  c) Satan has to have God's permission to test us. Read Job, Norm.

  So Satan has to have God’s permission to do his supposedly evil deed’s? Who is ultimately responsible for Satan’s actions then, Rex? Dear oh dear. What a lovable fellow your God is Rex.

  3) God most decidely could have stopped the attack. Some have suggested it is a form of judgement, drawing parallels between Israel being judged (by God) using pagan nations. I don't agree, for America has never been under a covenant with God.
  I also do not judge God. You (think) you do that well, so I'll let you.

  Well, again he didn’t care enough to stop it or any other senseless bloodbath around the world. Why do people bother to pray to such a God after such disasters? He didn’t care enough to prevent their loved ones being killed, so why does anyone think he will help anyone afterwards? I can’t judge your God, Rex, he is just a figment of your imagination. I just want to know how you hold that insane reality you live in together.

  However, there is also this possibility: we have seen all down through history how nations have been held accountable for their actions and they are in place only because God allows them to be. All who 'ask for' judgement, by their actions as a nation will face the consequences and this may be only the beginning for the western democracies. I pray that our countries receive mercy and grace.

  Aha, care to mention one example of a Nation who has been held accountable for its actions by God but don’t try any of those fairy tales from the Bible, but tell us an example of a modern Nation. If God show the same disregard for the lives of people as he has demonstrated throughout history, how has God allowed anyone anything? Why do you bother praying for anything Rex?
  
  

  I suggest you study the Biblical doctrines of election (Paul explains predestination in Romans), both the Arminian and the Calvinist sides if you want to understand the debate within Christianity on this issue.

  Rex

  Well, I really have studied the Bible very thoroughly Rex, It doesn’t make any sense at all. Reading your “explanations” this fact becomes even more obvious.

  Norm
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  42

  Islamic Violence not new.....

  by Rex B13 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in response to norm norwig's usual wide brush of generalization,that sweeps in all religion as causing all the problems of the world....... a prophet finds honor at last.

  by cal thomas.

  syndicated columnist.

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  Norm

  Rex,

  You said:

  If a person is seriously violating the laws of Christ, then you have:
  1) A saved Christian who will soon be 'called home' by God if he doesn't get his life straight.
  2) A cultural Christian who has never been saved.

  So there it is again, you cannot lay any blame for any actions beyond the individuals involved. God will judge them. Perhaps you need to know what you are talking about to keep from spewing nonsense?
  Rex

  One wonders in vain how anyone can produce so much drivel as you do Rex. Here you tell us that God will “call home” misbehaving Christians but he doesn’t lift a finger when terrorists clash planes into buildings? Obviously your God is unable to do anything for you. Why do you bother praying to this misfit? Spewing nonsense? Well, you are the undisputed King in that department.

  Norm