Posts by Norm

posted

57
Doubt Not!
by silentlambs in
1. watchtower
2. scandals
i thought you might like to see a fax i just sent to j. r. brown.

you can also pick it up on the front page of the website, you may also read and download the complaint that states the basis of this lawsuit.

run wt run...... silentlambs.
Norm

Excellent Bill,
I have just translated the whole thing to Norwegian and it will go out to the media here in Norway.
Take care,
Norm.
2
Running ahead of..
by Norm in
1. jw
2. friends
as all of us who have a past in the watchtower society and know their history, running ahead of jehovah is just about the worst thing you can do.

i know this first hand because in december 1988 i was dfd because i put it to the committee in no uncertain terms that the watchtower chronology the year 1914 and the 1914 generation was pure fantasy.

in 1995 it became clear that even the idiots in brooklyn/patterson shared my views.
Norm

As all of us who have a past in the Watchtower Society and know their history, “running ahead of Jehovah” is just about the worst thing you can do. I know this first hand because in December 1988 I was DF’d because I put it to the committee in no uncertain terms that the Watchtower “chronology” the year 1914 and the 1914 generation was pure fantasy. In 1995 it became clear that even the idiots in Brooklyn/Patterson shared my views. To this day I have never received any apologies.
Anyway, what makes the whole mess and the use of the phrase “running ahead of” so hilarious is that no one has ever been doing so much “running ahead of” as the Watchtower Society itself, even according to it’s own standard and definition of the phrase. Let us have a look at this subject in the Watchtower literature. The Jews living under Roman occupation was naturally longing to be free from it. Apparently this was very dangerous:
*** w78 5/15 20 Christ Impaled, "The Power of God" ***
The Jewish rulers were wanting the Messiah to come in kingly power, break the oppressive yoke of Rome from off their necks, and exalt them with political power. They were running ahead of Jehovah.
The Jews wanted Messiah to come and lead them against the Romans, but wanting that so much was “running ahead of Jehovah”. He was not ready to do that when the Jews really needed it, “Jehovah” usually never is, is he? Anyway, take a look at these statements:
*** w95 11/1 17 A Time to Keep Awake *** Eager to see the end of this evil system, Jehovah’s people have at times speculated about the time when the “great tribulation” would break out, even tying this to calculations of what is the lifetime of a generation since 1914. However, we “bring a heart of wisdom in,” not by speculating about how many years or days make up a generation, but by thinking about how we “count our days” in bringing joyful praise to Jehovah. (Psalm 90:12) Rather than provide a rule for measuring time, the term “generation” as used by Jesus refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics.
“Alertness or Sluggishness?
It is easy for the established churches of Christendom and other people to criticize Jehovah’s Witnesses because their publications have, at times, stated that certain things could take place on certain dates. But is not such line of action in harmony with Christ’s injunction to “keep on the watch”? (Mark 13:37)… True, some expectations that appeared to be backed up by Bible chronology did not materialize at the anticipated time. But is it not far preferable to make some mistakes because of overeagerness to see God’s purposes accomplished than to be spiritually asleep as to the fulfilment of Bible prophecy?” The Watchtower December 1. 1984, page 18.
Let’s look closer at this particular part of the above quote:
“True, some expectations that appeared to be backed up by Bible chronology did not materialize at the anticipated time.”
It the Watchtower Society had been anywhere near being honest they should have said the following:
“True, ALL the expectations that appeared to be backed up by our own fantasy chronology, which we passed along as Bible chronology and truth, and presented as established and indisputable facts did not materialize at the anticipated time.”
It remains very dishonest to use terms like ”some expectations” to create the impression that they have only occasionally missed when they in fact never ever have been right. And of course we don’t see anything about “running ahead of Jehovah” here either. But let us take a look at the next quote:
“Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions ‘in the name of Jehovah.’ Never did they say, ‘These are the words of Jehovah.” Awake! March 22. 1993, page 4.
In all of the above statements from Brooklyn, they had been “speculating”. They had been trying to “calculate” the length of the “generation” etc. In short, they were just as “eager” as the Jews under Roman occupation for things to happen now, and fast! If fact they admitted being “overeager”, but do we see the expression “running ahead of Jehovah” used here? No, of course not. As always with the Watchtower Society many things are only wrong when others do it. When the Watchtower Society does exactly the same, it is never wrong.
As usual the Watchtower magazine almost never follow it’s own advice in such matters:
*** w97 6/1 13-14 A Secret Christians Dare Not Keep! ***
7 In contrast with humans, who have a limited life span, Jehovah never feels pressured by time to reveal his secrets prematurely. This fact should prevent us from becoming impatient when certain Bible questions cannot presently be explained to our satisfaction. Modesty on the part of the faithful and discreet slave class, commissioned to provide the Christian household with food at the proper time, prevents it from presumptuously running ahead and wildly speculating about things that are still unclear.
In light of the above documentation it is no doubt that the Watchtower Society has admitted to “wildly speculating about things that are still unclear” and that they as such have been “presumptuously running ahead”. The whole history of the Watchtower is a long example of being “impatient” in the extreme. And thus they have a very long history of constantly “running ahead of Jehovah”! When reading the quote immediately above and the next one, one realize that the “advice” given by the Watchtower must be for everyone else but the leaders in Brooklyn:
*** w97 6/1 14 A Secret Christians Dare Not Keep! ***
But how thrilling to know that Jehovah, in his own due time and in his own way, will continue to reveal his secrets as to his purposes! Never should we become impatient with Jehovah’s arrangement, indiscreetly trying to rush ahead of the Revealer of secrets. How reassuring it is to know that the channel Jehovah is using today does not do so! It is both faithful and discreet.
The two last lines in the above quote is really hilarious, talk about the truth in the saying that “self praise stinks”. One can hardly find anyone who has been more indiscreet and unfaithful as “the channel of Jehovah”. One has to feel sorry for “Jehovah” if this bunch of hopeless misfits was all he could find. More of the same can be enjoyed in the next quote too:
*** w72 11/1 644 Be Big Enough to Admit a Mistake ***
In striking contrast to the position taken by the popes is that taken by the Christian witnesses of Jehovah. They readily admit to having made mistakes as to doctrine and worship. … Does this admission of making mistakes stamp them as false prophets? Not at all, for false prophets do not admit to making mistakes.
Of course the Watchtower leaders has demonstrated time and time again they are very far from being a “striking contrast” to any other religious leaders at all, they are in fact dealing in lies and illusions as so many of their religious competitors.

*** w95 7/1 7-8 Why Search for Truth? ***
Seeing our beliefs exposed as untrue can be disillusioning, especially if we were taught by trusted religious leaders. Some might liken the experience to finding out that trusted parents were, in fact, secret criminals. But is not finding out religious truth better than living under a delusion? Is it not better to know the facts than to be manipulated by lies?
All of us who see the Watchtower Society for what it is have experienced the disillusioning of finding out what tangled web of lies and deceit the Watchtower Society is based upon. It is of course not a very pretty sight to see how they continue in the same way, refusing to stop their heartless manipulation of millions of people and cause them untold damage and harm.
But of course, when you are in the business of selling fantasy and dreams, as religion basically is, it almost doesn’t matter what insane drivel you present, after all it all has to be believed, and the more insane and incredible the better, it seems.
Norm.
WT, fascism, blind obedience
by Norm in
1. jw
2. friends
watchtowerism, fascism, philosophy and blind obedience.

no one is better in describing themselves than the watchtower society.

usually this is done by accident when describing others.
Norm

Watchtowerism, fascism, philosophy and blind obedience
No one is better in describing themselves than the Watchtower Society. Usually this is done by accident when describing others. At least from “Booze” Rutherford’s days whatever that was printed in the Watchtower or decreed from Brooklyn has been the law and should be obeyed without question. Disagreeing with Brooklyn is equal to being against God:
*** w56 4/15 243 Activity and Life versus Inactivity and Death ***
So be obedient. Do Jehovah’s work in Jehovah’s way. It is the way Jehovah has marked out through his organization. That alone counts!
*** sm 47 Mankind's Beginning ***
3 However, there was a condition attached to that good relationship: obedience. God expected man to obey him and thus show his submission to the will of his Creator. As God said at a later time, “To obey is better than a sacrifice.” (1 Samuel 15:22) This is reasonable, is it not? In any organization, rules are necessary as is obedience by the members to those rules. Hence, God wanted man to be obedient to the rules he set down.
*** w91 9/15 17 "Help Me Out Where I Need Faith!" ***
12 To ensure their salvation, Noah and his family needed to exercise faith. This meant following instructions and the leadings of God’s holy spirit. During the great tribulation, it will be just as imperative that we follow the leadings of the holy spirit and obey Jehovah’s instructions through his organization.
*** w89 9/15 23 Be Obedient to Those Taking the Lead ***
13 In the world, there is a tendency to reject leadership. As one lecturer said: “The rising education level has improved the talent pool such that followers have become so critical that they are almost impossible to lead.” But a spirit of independent thinking does not prevail in God’s organization, and we have sound reasons for confidence in the men taking the lead among us.
*** w89 9/15 20 Be Obedient to Those Taking the Lead ***
“Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will render an account.”—HEBREWS 13:17.
As usual demanding such blind obedience is only wrong when others do it, like the godless fascists and communists:

*** g90 10/22 24-5 Part 6: Blackshirts and Swastikas ***
Fascism elevates the State above all other authority, both religious and civil. French jurist Jean Bodin of the 16th century, English philosopher Thomas Hobbes of the 17th, as well as 18th- and 19th-century German philosophers Johann Gottlieb Fichte, Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, and Heinrich von Treitschke, all glorified the State. Hegel taught that the State occupies a position of supremacy and that the individual’s supreme duty is to be its loyal supporter.
By their very nature, all governments must exercise authority. But Fascist states are designed to exercise it to the utmost, demanding blind obedience.
The fascist state and the Watchtower Society both demand blind obedience:
*** w59 5/1 269 Attain Completeness in the New World Society ***
7 To hold to the headship of Christ, it is therefore necessary to obey the organization that he is personally directing. Doing what the organization says is to do what he says. Resisting the organization is to resist him.
Glorifying the State is of course very wrong but glorifying the Watchtower organization is not only right, it is of the outmost importance because the organization will SAVE you!
*w81 11/15 21 - ** And while now the witness yet includes the invitation to come to Jehovah's organization for salvation, the time no doubt will come when the message takes on a harder tone, like a "great war cry.
*w74 7/1 407 -**28 Are you willing to 'gird yourself with lowliness of mind,' to "put on the apron of humility"? Are you willing to accept Jehovah's way for salvation? In this twentieth century we have an example of humility, of lowliness of mind, that is found world wide. It is in the organization of Jehovah's witnesses. Why not read on and see how they have humbly conformed to Jehovah's way for salvation?
*w67 4/1 223 - *Instead of looking upon Babylon the Great as a sanctuary, flee to the true sanctuary, God's Christian organization, by studying God's Word the Bible and taking the action therein commanded. Only in this way will one have a realization of God's promise: "The salvation of the righteous ones is from Jehovah; he is their fortress in the time of distress. And Jehovah will help them and provide them with escape. He will provide them with escape from wicked people and save them, because they have taken refuge in him."-Ps. 37:39, 40.
Did you notice that it was a bunch of those pesky demonic philosophers that inspired the fascistic ideology? Yes, even the great Hegel was among them. The despicable Hegel had also influenced the commies:
*** w59 8/15 511 Communism a False Religion ***
An outrider and prophet . . . appeared in the form of a generation of preachers finally embodied in the person of the German philosopher Hegel. Following him, there arrived the bearer of the Word, the messiah, Karl Marx. His deification requires no documenting.
We should all avoid such empty man made “wisdom” as the philosophers present like the plague:
*** w95 12/1 6-7 When Tradition Conflicts With Truth ***
By using God’s inspired Word, you get to the pure waters of truth rather than the polluted waters of human and demonic philosophy.—John 8:31, 32; 2 Timothy 3:16.
Yes, all that worldly wisdom and higher learning that some like to flaunt while participating in endless debates:
*** w93 8/1 16 Let No One Spoil Your Useful Habits ***
9 Many people will debate for hours, week after week, but not because they are seeking truth. They just want to undermine another’s faith while flaunting their own supposed education in Hebrew, Greek, or evolutionary science. When encountering them, some Witnesses have felt challenged and have wound up having extended association centered on false religious belief, philosophy, or scientific error.
So you who love to flaunt your “education” by using complicated words and spraying about names and quotes of famous philosophers are only undermining people’s (gasp) faith! As the Watchtower magazine have “demonstrated” above the philosophers have inspired the most hideous movements like communism and fascism. Ideologies who have almost killed as many people as Christianity has done and has caused almost as much pain and suffering.
Norm.
113
Silentlambs and Signifiers that Signify Nothing
by dunsscot in
1. watchtower
2. scandals
call me a neopositivist, a semi-verificationist or semi-falsificationist, but the claims made by "silentlambs" reminds me of the shakespearean line that was quoted in the creator book published by the wtbts.

that is, the contentions of silentlambs seem like much "sound and fury" that in truth signify nothing.

i am of course referring to the supposed dateline show and the claims made about some members of the gb of jehovah's witnesses.
Norm

The following was posted to the board pn May 15th by AlanF:
In response to requests for information on the alleged homosexuality of former GB member Ewart Chitty and the alleged pedophilia of former GB member Leo K. Greenlees, I’m posting some information I’ve gleaned from various sources over the years.
I have no doubt that some JW apologists will scream bloody murder about this stuff. “It’s all just unverified rumor and you can’t prove anything!” they’ll say. Well, I’ve verified the basic fact that Chitty was dismissed from the GB for homosexual tendencies, and that Greenlees was dismissed for child molestion, through several former Bethelites who had close friendships with GB members and other high WTS officials. I've also spoken to certain other WTS personnel who I knew were in a position to know about Greenlees, and they refused to deny my descriptions of what I think I know about Greenlees' molesting. In order to protect identities, I won’t say who they are, but their testimony satisfies me. When I told one of these people several years ago that information about Greenlees was being published on the Net, his comment was along the lines of, “Well good! It’s about time the truth about him is being made public.”
For those inclined to discount the following information, keep in mind that the evidence, while third-hand or circumstantial, is from a number of independent sources, and to an objective observer has the ring of truth. Also keep in mind that GB members don’t just up and resign – they have to be forced out. Note how Greenlees for instance, just disappeared from mention in WTS literature after 1984, and a January 1, 1986 WT article (p. 13), soon enough after that to be extremely suggestive, commented that: "Shocking as it is, even some who have been prominent in Jehovah's organization have succumbed to immoral practices, including homosexuality, wife swapping, and child molesting."
If someone calls Brooklyn Bethel and asks the Public Affairs Office about Chitty or Greenlees, it’s likely that the response will be, “We cannot comment on such personal matters.” However, if one were to make inquiry about someone who has never been accused of such bad conduct, and who is unlikely to be so tainted because of their general reputation, the PA Office’s response would be outright denial. It would be instructive for several people to try this and report back.
Of course, anyone with close ties to high WTS officials in Brooklyn can discreetly inquire; I’m sure the responses would either confirm or not deny the charges against Chitty and Greenlees. However, I don’t expect that anyone with such connections would report the result on this forum.
Ewart C. Chitty
Governing Body member Ewart Chitty (born ca. 1898) resigned his position in 1979. He entered the London Bethel in 1921, began to work in "the office", and by 1938 held some sort of official position, as two 1938 Watchtowers have him reporting to J. F. Rutherford on the attendance of Bethel family members at the "family" study. By 1942 Chitty was the secretary of the International Bible Students Association (IBSA; the Society's British equivalent of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc.). Somewhere along the line he was appointed as secretary-treasurer of the IBSA, which position he held until his appointment to the Governing Body in November 1974. After his 1979 resignation from the GB, Chitty remained in Brooklyn working in Writing Correspondence, so he was certainly in good standing. A 1981 Awake! article has Chitty making comments about people having lost their love of neighbor and God. Apparently by this time Chitty was drinking heavily, according to close acquaintances. Likely this contributed to his being dismissed from Brooklyn and reassigned to the London Bethel a few years later. There he worked at an assignment of little responsibility, but was appointed an elder in a local congregation. Chitty died about 1993.
As to Chitty's alleged homosexuality, the information I have is mixed. He certainly made some remarks in his 1963 life story in The Watchtower that leaned in this direction. By then he had roomed with the same man for 30 years and just about gushed when speaking about him. See the email comments below for one Brit's take on this. When in Brooklyn, Chitty seems to have preferred younger men as roommates. The actual charge brought to the GB against Chitty was made by a former roommate and involved some sort of inappropriate conduct. The GB concluded that Chitty had homosexual tendencies, whatever that means, and asked him to resign. Chitty could hardly do anything but comply with the rest of the GB's wishes, since his only alternative would have been to leave Bethel at age 81 and after being there for 58 years. It may well be that the GB didn't view Chitty as guilty of homosexual activity, since he remained a Bethel member in Brooklyn or London, but it may also be that they made a deal: Chitty would remain quiet about where "the dead bodies" were buried as long as the Society cared for him in his old age. Sounds like a good deal to me.
Leo K. Greenlees
Governing Body member Leo K. Greenlees was forced to resign and leave Bethel in late 1984. He entered the Toronto, Canada Bethel in 1936, eventually becoming treasurer of the Canadian branch and of the IBSA of Canada. In 1964 he went to Brooklyn Bethel, and in 1965 was elected as a director of the Society's New York corporation. As a director Greenlees automatically became a "governing body" member when that body was formally instituted in 1971. He often spoke at Gilead graduations, and was the concluding speaker for the day at the Watchtower Centennial business meeting at Three Rivers Stadium in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania on October 6, 1984. A 1982 Watchtower mentions him as being on the Teaching Committee of the Governing Body. Greenlees' last mention in Watchtower publications is in the December 1, 1984 Watchtower where he is said to have passed out diplomas at the September Gilead graduation.
In late 1984, Greenlees was allegedly convicted by the rest of the Governing Body of molesting a ten year old boy. My information is that the boy's parents had complained to the Society and it took action. Greenlees was a friend of the family and often visited them. After leaving Bethel Greenlees served as a Special Pioneer and eventually an elder in the "Downtown" congregation in New Orleans, Louisiana. He died in the late 1980s.
Interestingly, the boy who Greenlees molested applied for Bethel service a few years later, around 1991, and was rejected. Watchtower leaders apparently feared that other Bethelites would tell him the 'rumors' about Greenlees, not knowing that he was Greenlees' victim, and cause the young man to know that justice had not been done. He might then have confirmed the rumors.
Sources
Sources for the above information include my personal conversations with current and former Bethelites, private emails, publicly posted information and comments, and Watchtower literature. Those who have revealed information to me privately will remain anonymous until they want to go public themselves.
Below I'm presenting some of the publicly posted comments, or ones that I've been authorized to make public. Some of the comments contain incorrect information, which, given the above, the reader will easily spot. I will also make some clarifying comments along the way.
Private email:
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From: "pbonanno" < [email protected]>
To: < [email protected]>
Subject: Re: Leo K. Greenlees
Date sent: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 22:02:24 -0400
Hi Alan,
In one of your posting regarding Leo K. Greenlees you said:"the boy who Greenlees molested applied for Bethel Service a few years later, around 1991, and was rejected." What is the source for the above, and do you have his e-mail?
In the early 1980's Leo K. Greenlees visited Malta with Brodie or Broody (from the Canadian Branch) on a Zone visit. After his talk Greenlees came at the back of the Kingdom Hall near the library were my brother and myself were. (early in our teens) While talking with us he started rubbing his hands on our back, then he asked us to accompany him to his car, but my father happened to come. At that time for us it was a special privilege that a GB member gave us that personal attention. Today we know why.
Yours, Paul Bonanno
You could print what I said. Including my name and e-mail: [email protected]
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Posted on an email message board:
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From [email protected] Wed Dec 28 11:28:37 1994
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 14:22:05 -0500
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: Joey the Scoop Stikes Again!
To the Pooper Scooper,
Since the subject came up, I will add my $.02 to it.
My dad and my brother used the same JW accountant. This witness had Bro. Greenlees <sp?> over. He mentioned that Greenlees had an interest in his son (about 7) and after leaving the room for awhile he came back and found Greenlees's hand on his son's thigh (his son was wearing shorts). The witness freaked out (and to this day believes that Greenlees is a child molester). Although he did not touch the boy's genitals, he certainly acted improperly.
Second story, after Greenlees resigned the GB he came to the Airport were the above mentioned witness lived. He called the witness to pick him up (my brother was there at the time getting hie taxes done), and the witness lied and told him he couldn't. He then told my brother "I wouldn't do anything for that son of a bitch". So my brother, who was struggling to stay a JW decided to pick him up at the airport. In the two hour car ride my brother shared his problems: chronlogy, 1914, Christ's mediatorship, ect. Greenlees listened and nodded in agreement. In the end (no pun intended), Greenlees told my brother "Yes, but remember where you learned the truth."
Third and final Greenlees story. This came from a former JW lady I met at a support group meeting. One time when Greenlees was still on the GB, he was staying at her house. They had a piano and were playing songs, when Greenlees asked her "Do you know Ave Maria?" She said "Isn't that a Catholic song?" He replied "Well you don't have to sing the words. But the music is pretty." She, to say the least was stunned.
Thats what I know, and now you know what I know, you know?
Michael
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Posted on a message board:
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**Active gays in GB-to be envied
Posted by M.E. on June 21, 1997 at 05:12:57:
In Reply to: *Active gays in GB-to be envied posted by AF on June 20, 1997 at 10:56:13:
Hi Alan,
Actually, Leo was not disfellowshipped at all. He was removed from the GB and made a 'Special Pioneer'. I know this from a Bethelite that stated to my brother "They (the GB) made him (Greenlees) a special pioneer, can you believe that!" (This Bethelite is still at Bethel, as far as I am aware.)
Also, my brother picked up Leo from the Tampa airport after he was removed (he had friends or relatives in the area). The brother that was supposed to pick him up decided just to leave him at the airport because his young son was one of the boys Leo touched (he caught him rubbing his sons upper thigh, while is not illegal, it is certainly improper behavior of an adult to child and could show that Leo had some questionable sexual desires).
One final Leo story. On the way from Tampa to his destination, my brother had a long conversation with Leo. He talked about 607, 1975, Mexico, baptism question changes, ect. The whole time Leo just shook his head in agreement. But just as he was getting out of the car, he said, "You're right, Brother. But, don't forget where you learned the truth."
If his words represent the feelings of others on the GB, then there is almost no chance for reform. Because, even if we're wrong about everything, we still are the only ones teaching the truth.
Its all too Orwellian for me.
Peace,
Michael
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Posted on an email message board:
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From [email protected] Sat Dec 31 18:35:38 1994
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 1994 21:33:57 -0500
From: [email protected] (Joseph M Stagnitto)
To: [email protected]
Subject: new stuff
Hello y'all:
With regards to the homosexuality issue of former Governing Body member Leo Greenlees and Ed Chitty. Today I spoke to the former personal secretary to the late Fred Franz. His name is Roger Scott. I believe that our online friend Bob Gray had seen this person accompanying Franz on his trips. Roger confirmed these rumors as fact. One of his responsibilities was to type up the minutes of the Governing Body secret sessions. Unfortunately, he did not make copies of some of the real GB dirt.
The parts about Chitty's "gay" issue, however, were not included in the minutes but were typed up on a sheet of paper and inserted into a sealed envelope (which paper he typed) and this was attached to the minutes of that particular meeting. One thing that few people outside of Bethel knew was the fact that former GBer Chitty was also a notorious alcoholic. This fact EVERYONE at Bethel was aware of.
I have asked Roger (disfellowshiped for nearly 10 years now) if he is willing to put a book together to describe his experience as Franz's secretary and administrative assistant to the Governing Body of the late '70s/early-mid '80s. He has been toying with the idea. We will see what happens. Since his departure he has become agnostic in his theological outlook.
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I did some checking on Roger Scott. He apparently worked in the "Factory Office" which was a department run directly by Bethel Factory Overseer Max Larson. Larson seems to have used it to screen young men for positions of further responsibility. It often occurred that young men were "promoted" from "factory dispatch" (apparently a sub-group based in the 117 Adams Street building) to the executive offices down the street in the 25 Columbia Heights main executive building where the Governing Body offices are located. Young men in "dispatch" were known to be on the road to greater responsibility. Thus it appears that Scott had a position of great responsibility -- guarding the valuable person of Fred Franz. It is well known that trusted young Bethel men were assigned to help him get around, just as they have long been assigned to help the older ones. By 1984 Fred Franz was accompanied by some young man wherever he went. One of my sources confirmed this and said that he always saw someone, usually the same young man, escorting Franz around. I observed Karl Klein, who could barely walk, being escorted onto a bus in 1998. So if Scott were trusted with guarding Fred, he would have to be trusted with all sorts of confidential personal information, perhaps including typing up minutes of GB meetings for him. At this time I have been unable to find Scott so as to confirm the above information firsthand.
Posted to an email message board:
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From [email protected] Thu Jan 26 20:31:19 1995
Date: 26 Jan 95 23:13:22 EST
To: < [email protected]>
Subject: Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang
Hi folks,
Back on that old topic (and sorry, I couldn't resist Jo's nickname for him) of Ewart Chitty and Leo Gay Greenlees.
I checked his life story in the Feb 15, 1963 WT, and really there were enough clues to guess what was going on; I couldn't find his chum Clay's story, which is no longer indexed. It also bears on the current scandal of the $50m country retreat for the elite at Patterson.
We start with what seems a recurrent nightmare of disclosure ...
"Truly I can say that this has been the practical means time and time again that has caused the curtain never to drop in heavy folds about me, but to rise ever higher on new delightful vistas"
Then comes the queer, in both senses, sentence:
"With an older brother and boy friend I attended some talks..."
In British usage, men have friends and women have boy friends.
"Then, too, in Bethel itself there is the opportunity of entering into a real friendship."
So it seems
"Maybe, like myself, some persons have what is considered the customary British reserve and are not always easy to get to know, but I can definetly say that staying in the homes of the brothers, or in a Bethel home under such an organizational arrangement, makes these realtionships possible, that besides being very pleasurable, can prove to be a source of strength, helping one to keep a good balance in difficult times."
Just how pleasurable did it get?
"What a pleasurable position in which to be."
Ahem, moving on...
"If I had been told in the early 1920s that in forty years time I would be living and serving in a fine and spacious new Bethel home, well, I might have laughed as Abraham and Sarah did when told what seemed impossible. I am still working in the office, but what an office! We have a large office with windows all along one side giving a view of a wide expanse of sky and trees, with a grand old cedar close by. What a pleasant place in which to work! As our zone servant, Bro Hoffman,said to me not long ago: 'It is like living in a restored paradise.'"
Seems some folk have already built their little paradises on earth, and in a flagrant show of materialism are busy building another.
Now in the spot usually reserved in these selfhagiographies for putting in a word of thanks for one's wife's loyal support:
"Then, too, I have had the same friend and roommate for the past thirty years or more, Brother Edgar Clay, whose life story you may have already read; but now we share a lovely room, a most pleasant home with a fine view facing south, and an extra window looking out to rising fields and trees and the setting sun in all its glory."
How gushing and poetic he can be when Edgar dearie is around!
He concludes by having the gall to quote the rampantly heterosexual David,
"the measuring lines themselves have fallen for me in pleasant places."
I was surprised at the original revelations about his sexual orientation, but on reading his life story, I was much more shocked by the materialistic outlook from the inside of the governing body - the focus of size of office and quality of room. Not really surprising that so much money is being spent on Patterson - still , the proles can join the members of the public staying at the Patterson Inn hotel and live for a weekend in paradise on earth.
cheers
jey
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Posted to an email message board:
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From [email protected] Tue Mar 21 07:14:18 1995
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 16:13:15 +0100
Subject: Re: disfellowshipping
> >BTW, is there any truth to the rumor that 2 GB members were gay?
Interestingly, while Chitty had a short message in the 1980 Yearbook (p258) that he resigned, Greenlees suddenly disappeared completely from the WTS texts without no indication of reason. w84 12/1 p 28 is last mention of him (Leo is chairman is Gilead graduation; there are 3 mentions of him this year, and he is chairman in two of the events!). The _Proclaimers_ book pretends he never existed (But it refers to "Greenlees, Alfred and Minnie: 411-12"; are they related?).
A strange thing to happen to a GB member, isn't it? Orwellian indeed...
Then, in w86 1/1 p 13 it says: "Shocking as it is, even some who have been prominent in Jehovah's organization have succumbed to immoral practices, including homosexuality, wife swapping, and child molesting." Hmm.
Of course, "somebody" started at the same time the rumour that Ray Franz was gay, and many JWs thought this was the reason for his dismissal and later DFing. Too bad the elder tribunal issued letters of df'ing in those days, outlining the reasons.
All the best,
- Jan
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Posted recently to the H2O message board:
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319096.html
Posted by bigboi [bigboi] on February 01, 2001 at 11:22:45 {shHHV5PurskTqda5sDRoFRDCNwUcB2}:
In Reply to: Poor Leo & Ewart posted by Elrond on February 27, 2000 at 16:17:32:
I know this is a bit late but i hope this helps anyway Elrond. It seems that after Greenlees was ousted from Bethel he served in a small congregation in New Orleans, LA. It was named the Downtown congregation. I remember the friends talking about him, mentioning things about how he used to be a member of the GB and so forth. I even remember the former P.O. of the congregation mentioning that he had be re-appointed as an elder shortly before he died. I don't know when he died. But an interesting point may be made that most of the friends in that congregation that knew him were under the impression that he was a repentant follower of Franz and not a homosexual.
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Recently posted on this forum (jehovahs-witness.com) by SanFranciscoJim. The information is from Larry Dunn, who has posted publicly on this subject several times in years past. See below for similar comments from years ago.
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Here is an account of Leo Greenlees written by someone who knew him personally. I also personally know the author of this article and have every reason to believe it is 100% true.
* http://www.geocities.com/commonbondeast/nyc/bethel.html
-------------------------------------------------------
"At one time I thought that perhaps I was the only gay Jehovah's Witness in Canada, perhaps the world. This was not unusual, as most gay/lesbian Jehovah's Witnesses feel the same way. There is a conspiracy of silence on the subject, since these things were "not to be even mentioned" by a good Christian.
Percy Chapman and his companion Leo Greenlees were sent by Rutherford from London Bethel in 1936 to replace the rebel Canadian Branch Overseer, Walter Salter, who had started up his own group over the "elected elders" debacle. Percy was a mesmerizing public speaker of the old school (no voice amplification required) and with his Lancashire lilt of voice reminded me of Winston Churchill, flapping jowls and all. I can still remember the reverberating vibrato of his voice warning of the "vile depths of the abominations" and since I knew that homosexuality was "an abomination unto the lord" wondered if that was what he was referring to. It was not until later that I began to suspect the administration at Bethel was mainly gay.
I remember the shock at a district assembly in 1959 at Halifax, Nova Scotia where Percy Chapman, then the branch overseer of Canada was to give the main talk. Suddenly who should appear to replace him, but Brother Knorr, the President from New York. Percy Chapman just disappeared from sight. Later we found out that Brother Knorr had removed all responsibilities from Percy but allowed him to remain at Bethel in Toronto as a janitor. The next shock was that Percy Chapman was forced to be married. Percy, following the Rutherford line, was totally anti- marriage and he made sure that none of the "Bethel boys" even contemplated the subject with very strict rules and early curfews. The only way a bethel boy could see another sister would be to go on a Bible study with her. My parents started studying in 1945 with a beautiful young pioneer sister named Joyce Randall and every week there would be a new Bethel boy accompanying her. She later was sent to Gilead and posted in Peru, totally isolated, only to be seduced by a latin lover. Of course she was disfellowshipped and sent home in disgrace. But my family did get to know a lot of Bethel boys. They were all young and handsome, hand-picked by Percy Chapman; there was even an elite group known as "Percy's boys" who would accompany him to expensive restaurants and bars and receive other favours. At the time, Bethel was on Irwin Avenue, now (although replaced by a condominium) in the centre of the gay district of Toronto. There was even a Kingdom Hall above "the Parkside", one of Toronto's few gay bars in the fifties and sixties.
Poor Leo Greenlees, Percy's close companion for three decades even when at London Bethel, had to find himself a new room-mate. Leo was a cheerful, likable fellow, with his thick Scottish brogue and also an electrifying public speaker. He was very open about his homosexuality to those few good-looking young brothers like those he would meet at one of the summer resorts in Haliburton run by Jehovah's Witnesses (later bequeathed to the Watchtower Society). I got to know Leo a little better when he was assigned to be congregation overseer at the Kingdom Hall I attended as a teenager during the early sixties in Richmond Hill, just north of Toronto. He would bring along another bethel boy, Lorne Bridle, who was very good looking and charming. After a failed marriage to a young pioneer sister, he eventually committed suicide. I often wondered what tortured state of mind led him to that - but so often the fate of closeted gays in the Watchtower society!
But Leo was soon to be promoted to Brooklyn Bethel, where he became the Treasurer of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and one of the elite governing body. He managed to escape the witch-hunt at Brooklyn Bethel in the early seventies when dozens of Bethel boys were disfellowshipped after learning of their midnight trysts in the sauna in Brooklyn bethel. There was for a short period in the late sixties and early seventies a marked liberalization of attitudes among the governing body. But this suddenly ended, culminating with a power struggle and the disfellowshipping of Raymond Franz, a member of the governing body who was a free-thinker and had written the "Truth" book and chaired the writing of the almost scholarly "Aid to Bible Understanding". Both books, interestingly have joined the list of publications that you would think never existed according to the Watchtower society, although the "Truth" book had the largest printing, next to the Bible, of any book in the world.
It was not until a few years ago that I learned Leo Greenlees had been found out and was removed from the Governing Body for being gay. The last I heard was that he was sent to San Diego where he died not too long ago. As far as I know he was never disfellowshipped, nor can I corroborate any real seductions. Another member of the GB, Chitty who was also removed from Brooklyn Bethel for the same reason and sent away to London, England, I understand."
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Percy Chapman may well have been bisexual. An old friend of mine relates that in the late 1950s he was working at a Vancouver, B.C. district convention. During a session he unexpectedly walked into the room that was being used as the Chairman's office, where Chapman spent a lot of time. There was Chapman sitting in a chair with a young woman sitting on his lap facing him, skirt hiked up and Chapman's hands under her skirt. They jumped up and mumbled, then my friend quickly retreated. It was not long after this that Chapman was demoted by Knorr.
Posted on a message board. This is from Larry Dunn:
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Posted by Lodida on May 04, 1998 at 07:59:05:
In Reply to: to J.H. posted by lori on May 03, 1998 at 23:25:35:
Hi,
A person posted this to Randy Watters yesterday. It was from a person who lived in Toronto Canada and knew Leo Greenlees. You may find this very interesting.
"Your web page about the governing body and the crisis of 1981 was extremely interesting. Although I have not been an active JW since before 1975, I still take a keen interest in those who want to leave the Watchtower Society. I have a web page called GLOW (Gays and Lesbians Out of the Watchtower http://www.geocities.com/westhollywood/heights/2321 which you are welcome to look at.
I was raised as a Witness in Toronto in the fifties and sixties and at that time there were not that many witnesses in Toronto and you got to know the Bethel members quite well. I don't know if you know much about Toronto Bethel during that period, but it is my opinion that much of the administration there was gay. The Branch overseer until 1959 was Percy Chapman who was sent over from London Bethel in 1936 after the schism in Canada over elected elders. Along with him came his long-time room-mate and companion, Leo Greenlees. Canadian Witnesses were shocked and puzzled when Percy Chapman was forcibly removed from his position by N.H. Knorr and demoted to janitor. He was also forced to marry although his stance on marriage for Bethel members was even more damning than Rutherford's.
I knew Leo Greenlees personally as he was for a while my Congregation "Servant" (am I dating myself?). He always brought along a handsome young man with him from Toronto Bethel (who later committed suicide after a failed marriage). When he was younger Greenlees didn't hide his homosexuality from good looking, young brothers.
It was not until I heard rumours of Greenlees' and Chitty's forced resignations from the Governing Body for homosexuality that I knew definitely about Percy Chapman. They had been room-mates for thirty years at London and Toronto Bethels. Do you have any information about Greenlees that could corroborate my opinion? I heard he was sent to London Bethel along with E. Chitty (I don't think related to another long-time Bethelite in Toronto by the same name). Another Bethelite in Toronto during the sixties, Donald Malpass, who later become Branch Servant in New Zealand, was also sent to London Bethel. I am sure he was also gay.
I know many gays who are still active JW's including overseers. I don't know how they can support an organization that oppresses them or how they justify their hypocricy.
Interestingly one of the first issues that made me doubt the Watchtower was a question from Reader back in 1966 I believe asking if Paul's teachings in Romans on freedom from the law contradicted his stance towards the Jerusalem congregation in Hebrews (especially chapter 11) where he compromised and allowed some law. To me it was an obvious contradiction, but only consistent with Paul's "becoming all things to all sorts of men". The Watchtower's response was that it was a dangerous and evil thing to even suspect the Bible contradicted itself. I have heard about witch-hunts for gays at Brooklyn Bethel, such as one in 1972 after discovering midnight trysts in the sauna at Bethel, when dozens of gays were forced out of Bethel."
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Posted to an email message board:
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From: Lawrence Dunn < [email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Response to homosexuality
Date: Thu, 4 May 95 23:12:04 EDT
I was quite surprised to read some of the sympathetic comments about homosexuality recently. I wonder how many people are aware of the number of closet gays in the Watchtower Society and also the large percentage of ex-JW gays that exist.
I was overwhelmed by the response I got when I put a small announcement in a local (Toronto) gay publication announcing a support group for Gay and Lesbian Ex-JW's. Within a month there were over thirty people that responded and all were shocked that other gay/lesbian Ex-JW's existed. Being so isolated and closeted as JW's most are surprised that there were others who had the same feelings and experiences.
I have been in touch with Newsletters from groups of gay/lesbian ex-JW's such as "Reach Out" in Oregon and "A Common Bond" in Pennsylvania and I think there would be enough people interested to form a separate newsgroup on Gay/Lesbian Ex-JW support. Please let me know if anyone else agrees.
Regarding Leo Greenlees, he was the "congregation servant" in the congregation I grew up in near Toronto and I had heard rumors of his homosexuality from other witnesses who knew him closely. His roomate Percy Chapman, Canadian Branch Overseer from 1936-1959 was removed from his position under a cloud of secrecy and it all seems obvious why now. In retrospect I believe that most of the administration of the Toronto Bethel were closet gays for several decades. It is surprising that Greenlees was promoted to the Governing Body. There was also a brother Chitty in the Toronto Bethel, but I don't know if it is the same one from New York.
I do not judge these people, because I know the tremendous pressure to be closeted in the Watchtower Society, but personally I made a decision twenty years ago that I could not continue to be gay and a Jehovah's Witness. Although it has been difficult being rejected by my family, even totally disinherited, I do not regret the decision. The self-respect and feelings of personal integrity I know have I could never experience as a Jehovah's Witness.
I know there are many other gay and lesbian ex-JW's out there. I was a little afraid about coming out to this group, but the enlightened comments from so many sympathetic and gay-supportive people in the conference made it easier.
Larry
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I have no doubt that this information will spark some interesting discussions.
AlanF
34
Mass 'coming out': Revealing Our Identities
by philo in
1. jw
2. friends
on a the exmormon board i started a topic about fear of the organisation (link below).

'stumped' put up this idea.... in america, founded on freedom, folks are afraid to discuss their church.

it's loterally scary.. anybody wanna take a challenge tostate their name, address, phone number.
Norm

All I can say is that I have been on the Net with my real indentity for 7 years now and nothing even resembling bad has ever happened because of it. I think many take this privacy and secret identity much too far.
Norm.
Christendom's gone get it!
by Norm in
1. jw
2. friends
many who suffer from a inferiority complex find ways to compensate for their real or imagined inferiority.

apparently even organizations suffer from such deficiencies.

the watchtower society being a tiny and insignificant entity in a sea of huge and mighty churches try their best to compensate by heaping scorn and condemnations on their competition which they have lumped together under the name christendom, which stand of all that is detestable and filthy.
Norm

Many who suffer from a inferiority complex find ways to compensate for their real or imagined inferiority. Apparently even organizations suffer from such deficiencies. The Watchtower Society being a tiny and insignificant entity in a sea of huge and mighty churches try their best to compensate by heaping scorn and condemnations on their “competition” which they have lumped together under the name “Christendom”, which stand of all that is detestable and filthy. In true Christian style everybody who doesn’t agree with their particular brand of superstition deserve only death and destruction for being “false” Christians.
Let us look at some examples of real “true Christian compassion” for those who dare disagree with you:
*** w79 9/15 28 The "Cup" That All Nations Must Drink at God's Hand ***
28 For mere selfish reasons those political “shepherds” and “majestic ones” will “howl,” yes, roll about on the ground. As the Sovereign Lord Jehovah calls them to account during the “great tribulation,” they will grimly realize that the day has come for them to be slaughtered and scattered.
*** w88 1/15 14 Jehovah-Our Strength ***
As the foremost part of “Babylon the Great”—the world empire of false religion—Christendom’s religion in particular has been weighed in divine balances and found woefully wanting. It is doomed!
Isn’t it amazing how much they “KNOW” about what awaits “Christendom” in Brooklyn?
They are doomed to slaughter! How very nice! What a convincing display of the fine qualities of compassion and humility of the part of the Watchtower Society!
*** w80 2/1 28 Serve the "King of the Nations" and Survive ***
To this very day they have been courageously acting world wide at the side of the Jeremiah class, proclaiming the doom of Christendom and of the world empire of false religion, Babylon the Great. They are encouraging people of all kinds to desert this doomed system of things and to take a firm stand on the side of Jehovah’s executional forces under the command of a general greater than Nebuchadnezzar, namely, Jesus Christ. Thus they prove that they have put their full trust in Jehovah, “King of the nations.”
*** w91 5/1 14 Become United by the Pure Language ***
16 Just as it was Jehovah’s statute that Judah and Jerusalem should be wiped out, so Christendom must perish. Indeed, the destruction of all false religion is near, and those wishing to survive must act immediately.
*** w88 9/15 15 Listen-Jehovah's Watchman Speaks! ***
Because Christendom claims to be in a covenant with God but puts confidence in worldly alliances, she will perish under assault by Jehovah’s executional forces.
*** w87 1/1 30 "Gather Yourselves Together" ***
Likewise today, apostate Christendom is about to perish in “a great crash,” along with the entire world empire of false religion.
*** w93 5/1 22 Deliverance at the Revelation of Jesus Christ ***
Similarly today, opposition to the peace-loving Witnesses of Jehovah has often been instigated by those who claim to represent God, in particular the clergy of Christendom. These pretend to know God, but they reject the “one Jehovah” of the Bible, replacing him with a mystic Trinity. (Mark 12:29) They do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus, looking to man-rule for relief and rejecting the good news of Christ’s incoming Kingdom of righteousness. All these religious opposers must perish at the time of “the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven”!
Brooklyn has a very touching reverence for their great general and chief executioner Jesus Christ, which is going to wade through Christendom like Rambo and slay all the Trinitarian scum, who don’t “KNOW” God like they do in Brooklyn.
*** w97 5/1 22 Messengers of Godly Peace Pronounced Happy ***
15 Things are worse because, as we learned in the previous articles, Christendom and all other false religions will soon be destroyed, as completely as was Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E.
*** w91 6/1 18 Their Refuge-A Lie! ***
Jehovah’s judgments are unchangeably recorded in his Word the Bible. Christendom, along with all other false religion, will be destroyed.
*** w91 6/1 23 Keep Warning of Jehovah's Unusual Work ***
Religious Christendom will be burned and destroyed along with all other false religions. This will be Jehovah’s strange deed, his unusual work for our day.
*** w91 8/15 28 Do You Remember? ***
The warning at Revelation 17:16 shows that Babylon the Great’s political paramours will one day turn on her. As a result, Christendom will be completely destroyed along with all the other false religions.
*** w91 6/1 15 The Spiritual Drunkards-Who Are They? ***
Soon, Jehovah will carry into effect his “command upon command, measuring line upon measuring line,” and the result will be catastrophic for Christendom. Her religious leaders and their flocks will “be broken and ensnared and caught.” Yes, like Jerusalem of old, Christendom’s religious systems will be utterly destroyed. What a shocking, unexpected development that will be! And what a frightful outcome because the clergy prefer spiritual drunkenness to Jehovah’s reminders!
As we can observe the slaughter of Christendom is going to happen “SOON”. That should of course come as a great relief to all “true” students of the Bible, as the biblical “soon” means thousands of years, so there is obviously no need for panic just yet. But of course time is short so get out of Christendom right now folks, who would want to wallow around in the spiritual mud with the spiritual drunk clergy?
Get out of her folks!!
Norm.
65
The dim people
by Norm in
1. jw
2. friends
the dim people.

the new world society.

the chosen, brain dead, scared people.. the watchtower's obedient parrots.
Norm

Hi TeeJay,
The ”you” means anyone who believe in God.
You said:
You've lost me. If god showed up I'd think that even more would believe in him rather than the other way around. Unless you mean something like instead of "believe" they would "know" but that's only a play with words, imo. If I didn't believe in the Great Wall of China and someone showed me a picture of it, I'd start to believe. Or know.
You don’t have to believe in something you can observe. When you have seen or touched the great wall of China, you don’t believe in its existence anymore, you know it exist. Faith or belief only comes in when something can’t be observed or documented. You might believe that an athlete will be able to run the 100m in 7 seconds, you might have faith in him. If the athlete indeed run the 100m dash in 7 seconds you don’t have to believe it anymore, you KNOW he did it.
Hope this clears it up.
Do a search on logic on the net and you will find a lot of material.
I think that most universities and other places of learning offer courses and such on logic. Take a look at this:
http://www.kzoo.edu/phil/420.html
Norm
6
How to make a false prophecy
by Norm in
1. jw
2. friends
what happened with the 6000 years?.

jehovah's witnesses are generally very ignorant about the watchtower society history.

most of them would benefit greatly from reading older issues of the watchtower and other literature published by the society in earlier years.
Norm

What happened with the 6000 years?
Jehovah's Witnesses are generally very ignorant about the Watchtower Society history. Most of them would benefit greatly from reading older issues of the Watchtower and other literature published by the Society in earlier years.
Those of us that were around before and after 1975, remember the Brooklyn song and dance about 6000 years since Adam’s creation would run out in 1975. There was much excitement about this because it would fit SO well into the Freddie Franz “chronology” about how “fitting” it would be for the big A to come in 75. This article from 1968 really got the Witness community going:
*** w68 5/1 271 Making Wise Use of the Remaining Time ***
3 Hence, outside the Bible’s timetable, most dates set by historians are unreliable. Only a few “assured,” or absolute, dates, such as 539 B.C.E., can be accepted as certain. Christians, confident in Jehovah’s Word, know that the internal evidence of the Bible is the safest guide in these matters. This helps us to determine with great accuracy where we stand in the stream of time, particularly in regard to the seventh period of time, or “day,” mentioned in Genesis.—Gen. 2:2, 3.
Notice this line here: “This helps us to determine with great accuracy where we stand in the stream of time,” Quite hilarious isn’t it? If there is anything the Watchtower Society has established as “gospel truth” up through that organizations history, it is their total inability to determine anything, let alone with “great accuracy”! But it gets funnier still. Take a look at this rather amusing reasoning. The determining factor to be able to predict if Armageddon would come in 1975, was how long time Adam used to name the animals, and how long it took for him to realize that he was “alone” and needed a mate. But with the efficiency of God, it wasn’t likely to take more than a “few weeks or months” in the same year:
*** w68 5/1 271 Making Wise Use of the Remaining Time ***
4 According to reliable Bible chronology Adam was created in the year 4026 B.C.E., likely in the autumn of the year, at the end of the sixth day of creation. Then God brought the animals to man to name. Yet, of Adam, Genesis states these words of Jehovah: “It is not good for the man to continue by himself.” (Gen. 2:18) Adam would realize this lonely condition very quickly, perhaps in just a few days or a few weeks. He would realize he needed another earthling with whom he could communicate, share his experiences, and his life. Nor would his naming the animals take an unduly long time. The basic animal kinds could have been relatively quickly named, for when such basic kinds were taken into the ark in Noah’s day, it did not involve millions of beasts, but perhaps only a few hundred basic kinds. Thus, Adam’s naming of the animals and his realizing that he needed a counterpart would have occupied only a brief time after his creation. Since it was also Jehovah’s purpose for man to multiply and fill the earth, it is logical that he would create Eve soon after Adam, perhaps just a few weeks or months later in the same year, 4026 B.C.E.
So here we get a good insight into the insane ramblings of Fred Franz, the Society’s big spiritual leader and writer since Booze Rutherford kicked the bucket. Take a look at this where he is thinking out loud:
*** w68 5/1 271 Making Wise Use of the Remaining Time ***
5 Therefore, God’s seventh day and the time man has been on earth apparently run parallel. To calculate where man is in the stream of time relative to God’s seventh day of 7,000 years, we need to determine how long a time has elapsed from the year of Adam and Eve’s creation in 4026 B.C.E. From the autumn of that year to the autumn of 1 B.C.E., there would be 4,025 years. From the autumn of 1 B.C.E. to the autumn of 1 C.E. is one year (there was no zero year). From the autumn of 1 C.E. to the autumn of 1967 is a total of 1,966 years. Adding 4,025 and 1 and 1,966, we get 5,992 years from the autumn of 4026 B.C.E. to the autumn of 1967. Thus, eight years remain to account for a full 6,000 years of the seventh day. Eight years from the autumn of 1967 would bring us to the autumn of 1975, fully 6,000 years into God’s seventh day, his rest day.
This article sent the whole Witness community into a fewer pitch and the matter was addressed again the same year. This next quote mention that “lively discussions, some based on speculations, have burst into flame during recent months”. The quote also identify the reason for all these “speculations”:
*** w68 8/15 494 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
WHAT about all this talk concerning the year 1975? Lively discussions, some based on speculation, have burst into flame during recent months among serious students of the Bible. Their interest has been kindled by the belief that 1975 will mark the end of 6,000 years of human history since Adam’s creation. The nearness of such an important date indeed fires the imagination and presents unlimited possibilities for discussion.
Then, after this opening the article state the following:
*** w68 8/15 494 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
2 But wait! How do we know their calculations are correct? What basis is there for saying Adam was created nearly 5,993 years ago? Does the one Book that can be implicitly trusted for its truthful historical accuracy, namely, the Inspired Word of Jehovah, the Holy Bible, give support and credence to such a conclusion?

Then follows several pages with the most incredible insane, long-winded, twisted, hopeless and far-fetched arithmetic, ever put together. After having totally anesthetized the reader with all this mind numbing tripe, the article state:
*** w68 8/15 500-1 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
35 One thing is absolutely certain, Bible chronology reinforced with fulfilled Bible prophecy shows that six thousand years of man’s existence will soon be up, yes, within this generation! (Matt. 24:34) This is, therefore, no time to be indifferent and complacent.
You should all whip out this issue of the Watchtower magazine and enjoy this genuine piece of true Watchtower insanity in full flight. Feast your eyes on this incredible reasoning. This is precisely the same kind of number juggling that has been around in the Watchtower Society for so long and has cost them so much embarrassment up through the years. Then of course Franz would throw in the well-tried and tested old prune, the 1914-generation, another embarrassing example of the Watchtower “Bible Chronology” crap that hit the fan in 1995:
*** w68 5/1 272 Making Wise Use of the Remaining Time ***
Some of the generation that discerned the beginning of the time of the end in 1914 will still be alive on earth to witness the end of this present wicked system of things at the battle of Armageddon.—Rev. 16:14, 16.
Here we again get to watch Franz wallow in wishful thinking and hallucinating in a big way. Yes, how “fitting” it would be if the 1000 year reign could start in 1975:
*** w68 5/1 272 Making Wise Use of the Remaining Time ***
7 The immediate future is certain to be filled with climactic events, for this old system is nearing its complete end. Within a few years at most the final parts of Bible prophecy relative to these “last days” will undergo fulfillment, resulting in the liberation of surviving mankind into Christ’s glorious 1,000-year reign. What difficult days, but, at the same time, what grand days are just ahead!
Then, a little bit of prudence seeps in, “ahumm, well of course no one knows for sure, you
know”. But mind you, it would be very “foolish” with the “limited time remaining” of course. Yes sure, but not anywhere near as foolish as those listening to the drivel in the Watchtower magazine. And of course those who continue to listen to them.
*** w68 5/1 272-3 Making Wise Use of the Remaining Time ***
8 Does this mean that the year 1975 will bring the battle of Armageddon? No one can say with certainty what any particular year will bring. Jesus said: “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows.” (Mark 13:32) Sufficient is it for God’s servants to know for a certainty that, for this system under Satan, time is running out rapidly. How foolish a person would be not to be awake and alert to the limited time remaining, to the earthshaking events soon to take place, and to the need to work out one’s salvation!
Notice how the Watchtower quote Mark 13: 32, in this issue. But only a few moths later the same year, the frenzy got the better of them and they didn’t want to be fobbed off with such silly quotes from the Bible:
*** w68 8/15 500-1 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matt. 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. Make no mistake, it is sufficient that the Father himself knows both the “day and hour”!
Not only the Watchtower Society and Fred Franz was keenly aware of the imminence of Armageddon, one of the Watchtower Society’s favorites and a person of great importance to all “true” Christians was also aware of the limited time left:
*** w68 5/1 274 Making Wise Use of the Remaining Time ***
13 Satan the Devil also knows that the time left is very reduced. Revelation 12:12 states: “The Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.” Satan the Devil has a real problem where time is concerned. He has very little left. What he would not give to have more time to work out his debased purposes! But he does not, and so is furious.

Isn’t it really funny to read this drivel, written 32 years ago? Open a recent Watchtower and read exactly the same drivel about “living in the final years of this system”. It is incredible how they seem totally unable to change anything in Brooklyn. This seem to be the only “record” they own, and they play it over and over again:
*** w68 5/1 274 Making Wise Use of the Remaining Time ***
By measuring and calculating time, we know we are living in the final years of this system of things. It is crumbling before our very eyes in one orgy of violence and crime after another. Minute by minute, day by day, year by year it moves without fail toward its catastrophic end. There is no going backward for this system. How true,
then, in our day, what Paul stated at 1 Corinthians 7:29: “Moreover, this I say, brothers, the time left is reduced.” It is especially reduced in our day, as we are near the end of 6,000 years of human history.
The next quote tell us that the apostles didn’t know about 1975, well as it turned out the Watchtower Society didn’t know anything about 1975 either. Just as little as they know about anything else. Like the apostles who had their own period of frenzy, also had the same experience, absolutely nothing happened. Did they learn anything from it? Nope, nothing, nada! So all of you Watchtower followers, heed the call, no delaying or dilly dallying, go out there and spread the Watchtower literature like there’s no tomorrow, because to you there is no tomorrow, to you it is forever “ground hog day”:
*** w68 8/15 501 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
36 Even if one cannot see beyond 1975, is this any reason to be less active? The apostles could not see even this far; they knew nothing about 1975. All they could see was a short time ahead in which to finish the work assigned to them. (1 Pet. 4:7) Hence, there was a ring of alarm and a cry of urgency in all their writings. (Acts 20:20; 2 Tim. 4:2) And rightly so. If they had delayed or dillydallied and had been complacent with the idea the end was some thousands of years off they would never have finished running the race set before them. No, they ran hard and they ran fast, and they won! It was a life or death matter with them.—1 Cor. 9:24; 2 Tim. 4:7; Heb. 12:1.
*** w68 5/1 275 Making Wise Use of the Remaining Time ***
The more time they spend working with Jehovah’s visible organization, the less time they will have left to get into difficulty.
The more time they spend in “Jehovah's organization” the less time they will have to have a life. Of course the 6000 years since the creation of Adam, hasn’t been heard of the last 25 years. The elaborate example of this “accurate Biblical chronology” which was “proved” by calculations and twisted ”reasoning” which took several pages to “explain” is totally forgotten in Brooklyn and by the Witness community. In the next 50 years, the rest of the completely nonsensical Watchtower “chronology” will go the same way, but the “end” will of course always be “imminent”! Millions of Witnesses will have wasted their lives chasing this Bible/Watchtower “rainbow”.
Norm.
9
Official WT Report?
by nicolaou in
1. jw
2. friends
the following report was sent to me anonymously.

it's huge!.

at over 30,000 words and 68 pages it's a lot to take in.
Norm

It looks like the publication, Branch Office Procedure" which there is supposed to be only one copy of in each branch office.
Norm.
65
The dim people
by Norm in
1. jw
2. friends
the dim people.

the new world society.

the chosen, brain dead, scared people.. the watchtower's obedient parrots.
Norm

Ello TeeJay,
You said:
Many of the bigger problems of life must be solved by using more than one methodology. In other words, perhaps determining the existence of god requires more than just logic.
Just a thought.
peace,
todd
The existence of God requires faith, pure and simple. You believe that God exist and that's that. If you knew that God existed you could produce observable, testable evidence for it and faith would no longer be neccessary. If God showed up and presented himself to us, no one would BELIEVE in him anymore. Right?
Norm.