Posts by arko

10

My wife's sister (lengthy but I need help)

by arko_n9ne in

in march 2005, i met my future wife zuly.

a month later, i met her sister anahi.. zuly is younger than anahi, and is the only one in her family to have never conformed to being a witness.

in fact, she just today told a guy in a santa clause costume that she had no clue about the outside world until she met me, and that she realized her family had been demonizing everything for nothing.

arko_n9ne

@ABibleStudent I've read "Combatting Mind Control," as well as "Crisis of Conscience" (very emotional read, that book) as well as Robert Lifton's "Thought Control and the Psychology of Totalism," and a host of other thought control books. The odd thing was that I read them before I'd ever heard of a Jehovah's Witness.

I'm already trained to never discuss doctrine with her. With Jorge or Jesus, I do it with a smile because I enjoy straining their brains and honestly don't have an opinion either way about their sticking with the Society. But with Anahi, you can tell her the sky is blue and if the Watchtower told her it was red, she'd argue that it was red. Usual JW trait (even referenced in the most recent edition of Crisis), but she's a little further gone. If you tell her the sky is blue, reference the light spectrum in relation to the atmosphere, the process of the eye's receptors in relation to the perception of mind, just go into detail proving indisputably the sky being blue...she'll swear you were the one who said it was red. She will tell her friends you said it was red (to discredit you in arguments), and will hold you accountable for saying the sky was red.

Of course, this is all just an example. I've never had this "sky" conversation, but it should paint the picture of how much Anahi refuses to be wrong about her beliefs.

But I do like your other ideas. Roads I've yet to travel. I'll try emailing her. Show her that Zuly and I are happy. Try opening dialogues with her and showing interest in her state of being.
Maybe love-bomb her the way Witnesses do when you go to the meetings the first few times. Show her compassion and caring exists, let alone existing outside of the Society's grip.

Thank you much.

And for anyone else reading, I'll gladly take more suggestions. Anything to get Zuly her sister back. Anything to get my friend back. Anything to save a life.

21

So "The Quiet One" now has a problem with my domestic abuse article...

by cedars in

sorry about this, i generally don't like confrontation of any kind, but a situation has arisen on another thread, and i thought i would give the quiet one the opportunity to explain her reasons as to why she dislikes my article on domestic abuse without hijacking someone else's thread in the process.. the sad thing is, i had an entire thread devoted to publicizing this article and receiving feedback, but he/she chose not to say anything on that thread, but have a go at me on an entirely unrelated thread.. anyway, i'm copying and pasting the whole conversation so that both sides of the argument can be seen.. a copy of the offending article can be found here: "'won without a word' - at what cost?".

i'm not necessarily asking anyone else to join in the discussion, although you are welcome to do so if you wish to add anything.

the purpose of this thread is to give "the quiet one" the platform that he/she evidently craves to criticize the article in public (i have offered to discuss this over pms, but that offer hasn't been taken).. so anyway, sorry about this folks... (sigh).

arko_n9ne

I think the fact that in court, under oath to God, when trying to defend the Society as a religion, the Governing Body's claim that Jehovah was the editor of the magazine would be enough evidence to support the lie of the Watchtower as any kind of prophet of God.

This is, in fact, a point the Society clings to: the word of the Watchtower Magazine is law because it is the word of God and Jehovah is the editor of his Organization's publication, aka "His monthly visitor" (that's a PMS joke, boys and girls )

God is not the author of confusion. Nor is He a crappy editor who doesn't check His facts before releasing an issue of His magazine. The Society in 1953, I believe, stated Jehovah has been running the Watchtower magazine since it's inception. So apparently, the Organization will have us believe the Almighty half-arses His job at the printing press by letting false predictions, inaccurate statements, misquotings, propaganda, and other various schizms slip between His fingers.

You heard it first from the Watchtower Society everyone! God is essentially the Genie from Aladdin: "SEMI-PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWERS! Itty bitty little living space."

10

My wife's sister (lengthy but I need help)

by arko_n9ne in

in march 2005, i met my future wife zuly.

a month later, i met her sister anahi.. zuly is younger than anahi, and is the only one in her family to have never conformed to being a witness.

in fact, she just today told a guy in a santa clause costume that she had no clue about the outside world until she met me, and that she realized her family had been demonizing everything for nothing.

arko_n9ne

In March 2005, I met my future wife Zuly. A month later, I met her sister Anahi.

Zuly is younger than Anahi, and is the only one in her family to have never conformed to being a Witness. In fact, she just today told a guy in a Santa Clause costume that she had no clue about the outside world until she met me, and that she realized her family had been demonizing everything for nothing. She could have just told him what she wanted for Christmas, but she's new to the holiday.

Zuly and I were dating behind her family's back because we needed to. She was living with them and they would never let a "Worldly" person date a potential recruit. Not kidding, this is what one of her brothers said to me. After about a year, they found out and Anahi told Zuly "you have to earn my trust back." It made Zuly feel like crap, but a few months later, Anahi was caught in a bold-faced lie.

She told her family she was spending the week with her best friend Berenice. Three days later, her mother called Berenice because Anahi wasnt answering her phone. It turned out Anahi was spending the week with a boyfriend no one knew she had. And it was the second time she'd pulled this gag on her family.
When I heard this, my heart jumped for joy because this girl was going to be turned in. It's what jw's do, or so I heard. But no, her family brushed it off.

April 19th, 2008: Zuly's mother was in the hospital and the whole family was there. Despite the mutual disdain her mother and I share (even to this day) I was there. Anahi told everyone she had to go because she'd had a service appointment scheduled, and she left. Two months later, we learn that she actually got laid and knocked up.
Small anecdote: Anahi had HG, so she was hospitalized. This is how we found out. With Zuly in the room, her mother tells Anahi "I expected this from Zuly, not from you." Zuly was still a virgin and remained one until a year later.

So at this point, I've got a few questions to those who've had experiences with the SOP of the WTS and JWs.
No one seemed to mind her leaving, so is it normal for a Jehovah's Witness to commit to a prospect when their family member(s) is hospitalized for a serious illness?
I've always been told, from their oldest sibling Jesus that it's common place to notify an elder if their family members are blatantly sinning. When she spent a week at a mystery man's home, was that considered sinning? And if so, why would loyal Witnesses who ratted out cousins and aunts and uncles ignore her repeated offense?

Anahi turned herself in because she couldn't hide the bag of medicine intrevenously attached to her arm. So she was censored. Honestly, I don't know the term because the family belongs to a spanish congregation. The term they use is "censurado" which means censored, but I'd never heard it applied to english congregations.
The other brother Jorge, who I mention in my past posts, told me they almost threw the book at her, so to speak but she was lucky she wasn't disfellowshipped. I suggested that their uncle (who they spent a few years living with) being the senior elder of their congregation may have had a part in her luck. He told me that "especially because he was the elder" she was lucky.

I learned this year that she was "censurado" privately (no announcement) and for only four months. She still hadn't had her child yet and was already free of punishment.

Is this a normal punishment for people in her circumstance? I've met Witnesses disfellowshipped because they were naive enough to tell their friends they had doubts. This girl lied to friends and family, had sex before marriage, and only turned herself in when she knew they'd find out for themselves when they ask what the medicine was for or when her stomach got bigger. If this is normal, then they truly are unholy beasts. But could someone help make "the light brighter?" JW Pun!!!

Now for the point:

I felt bad for Anahi when she was pregnant. She was sick and it was really a coin toss of fate whether she lived or died. All of our disagreements and arguments were pointless here. She lost her faith, she lost her health, and this was a new world to her. Anahi was scared every day for the first three months since she found out she was pregnant because she didnt know if her or her baby would make it through to the next day. The doctors made multiple suggestions that she abort her child because at this point, it was a 70% chance Anahi wouldn't make it through if she kept her baby in utero.

Anecdote: Jorge told me when she was sick that he hoped she'd abort the child because he was scared and didn't want to lose his sister. Today, when I brought up Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel suggesting this past February that the scripture gave provisions for a caller of his radio show to abort a conjoined twin (without hearing first if the mother or children were at risk), he told me, and I quote "When Anahi was pregnant, the doctors wanted her to abort her baby, but it's like, you have to have faith. You NEVER abort a child." Kinda weird that he'll change his mind and rewrite history when it comes to jabbing at evangelicals.

There was a little prideful enjoyment of her situation because karma had finally gotten sick of her treating people like crap. But the majority of me was very concerned for her. She didn't get the shun treatment like everyone else. Her family was still very talkative to her and her best friend Berenice stuck by her through it all. Eventually, word got out like it was destined to at the Kingdom Hall, and alot of people wanted nothing to do with her. It brought out alot of humility in her.

She started getting healthier and Zuly and I would help her with small things she couldn't do anymore (all the bedrest made her weak). Over time, she and I became friendly to each other. Putting our differences aside, I noticed all the ways she was very much like me. We're the same age. Have the same stubborn pride. We graduated early. We've got the same taste in music and movies (differing that she likes saturated chick flicks that I can't stand, and I watch horror movies that she cant stand). The JW taken out of her, it was a little sad to realize she and I could have been best friends from the getgo but the iron fist of the WTS kept it from happening.

I wasn't aware at the time that she'd already been removed from punishment, and it wouldn't have occured to me because she was still talking to me regularly. I was there for her baby shower, and the cesarean, and I even got to hold her new daughter like everyone else who came. There was a time when she wouldn't be in a room alone with me and now I was holding her firstborn child.

Over the next few months, I would babysit and play with her daughter. I'd do everything but change her. There's something creepy about someone changing diapers of a girl who isn't their daughter. Even so, Anahi saw that I was doing a good job with her kid. She saw that I wanted to be around and help her take care of this little girl.

Anecdote: The daughter's father told Anahi shortly after the revelation she was pregnant to "take care of it." He was an elder at her congregation.

Zuly and I heard the news that she was given back her privelages (albeit not knowing how long ago it happened) and it was a little worrisome to us. Would she go back to her old ways and forget us? Or would she realize that the Society was wrong and that she had real friends and family away from the congregation? It was good gravy for a while because she would still talk to us and invite us out. What we didn't know was that she was being harrassed by her "friends" at the congregation for getting pregnant. We didn't know that grownups reverted to highschool tactics of calling her a slut behind her back but lod enough for her to hear.

If we'd known, would Zuly and I be able to comprehend that even though Anahi had her privelages restored, she was still on shakey ground in the Society's eyes? That these "friends" knew that any complaints from her would more than likely end with her being outed in a meeting and/or disfellowshipped?

Honestly, it wouldn't matter because Jorge and Anahi, who by this time, were the only active Witnesses in the family, changed congregations to where only the Governing Body could know their names. But this move was costly to Zuly in the form of a sister, and costly to me in the form of a great friend. A new congregation meant being the publishers they were before the dirt on her name.

Since moving to the new congregation, Anahi barely talks to Zuly, and outright ignores me. Her friend Berenice requested disassociation because she found herself with heavy doubts. Berenice, who'd been by Anahi's side from the moment we learned of her pregnancy, through the censor, and all the way through the childish gossip; there was no Anahi to return the love and loyalty.

Faced with humanity, Anahi turned into an amazing person who could recognize her imperfections as something manageable, not as a reason for shame. She opened up and expressed herself to "apostates" in ways the Society condemns, though they stand to be the basics of human decency. I respected her. I loved her as a sister. And now she is lost to the darkside.

MY MAIN QUESTION: Is this true? Is the great sister and amazing friend my wife and I had for only a short amount of time lost in the murky cloud of shameful domineering and cognitive dissonance? Can we ever find her or is she running through a forest not wanting to be found?

I miss her. Zuly misses her. And now she is with a group who only knows her name when she wears nametags at the assemblies. Who only knows the wrongs she's ever done and none of the good, enriching aspects that they could never appreciate the way her real friends and family could.

What can we do?

179

The Watchtower is NOT a false prophet

by The Quiet One in

regarding what some have said here about the wt being a false prophet.. i would like to make my point regarding the wt not being a false prophet... so please, if you can be patient enough to read this, at least try to understand what i am getting at.. a false prophet is one who, according to deuteronomy, makes a false prediction of the future and claims that the prediction came from god, or in other words claiming that 'god has said he will do a certain thing at a certain time' etc.. for example, hypothetically speaking, if someone had claimed: "god will bring about the end of the world in 2010", they would have been proven to be a false prophet, obviously.

but, as an example, imagine a man who claimed the position of a prophet of god, (as moses did, because although he was not the type of prophet that predicted the future.. he was still a prophet or spokesman for god) and that he had publicised worldwide, according to his interpretation of a (for example) prophecy found in the book of isaiah, that the world would end in 2010.. and he had also stated that he was not saying that god will end the world in that year.. but only that there was biblical evidence that god might do so.

that would clearly have been a mistake.

arko_n9ne

my issue with the point of the op is that the society spent three quarters of a century making these predictions from scripture. they enforced them saying they were the word of god delivered and comprehended through the mouthpiece of jehovah. that being supposedly the watchtower society.

to cast doubt on these theories was to label yourself a fool and in later years a reason for disfellowship. its understandable that men make mistakes. the watchtower governing body made tons. but in trials when the society testified to be recognized as a religion they repeatedly accounted something they still account today.

that jehovah is the editor of the watchtower magazine.

man makes mistakes. jehovah doesnt. jehovah wouldnt flip flop. jehovah wouldnt let a magazine go into his people with his stamp of approval if there were accountability issues with the reporters sources. he wouldnt print literature riddled with spiritual typos and factual errors. he isnt dylan rattigan.

they claimed to be prophets and told everyone that would listen that they were predictions of the future supported by god as proven by their being the only working prophet of god. they enforced gods prophecies and shunned those apostate disbelievers.

it would have been acceptable to gloss over this huge error on their part but the watchtower ruined too many lives. to throw away a person because they follow the scripture with brighter light than the society is wrong. to take away a persons sense of self. their friends. their family.

its not a game. there is no reset button. you cant just decimate the lives of millions over a selfish claim of uniformity at all costs and then act like a two year old when youre proven wrong. the watchtower has no care for its people. just their money and time.

they claimed to be prophets who could predict the timeline of bible events with progressive revelation by jehovah. they published repeatedly that they were jehovahs fortune tellers more or less and when someone threw deuteronomy at them they redefined what a prophet was instead of apologizing. like grownups do.

its unforgivable and i think they should be forsaken until the society publicly apologizes individually to all the brothers and sisters they ruined since chuck russell was running things. because as i said

its not a game. this is people and their lives we are dealing with.

17

Jehovah Can Be Killed, as per the Watchtower's teachings

by arko_n9ne in

i know no one has brought this up publicly but with the watchtower teachings of death it brings up a valid point.

when anyone dies they dont go to heaven.

they stay in the ground.

arko_n9ne

paolo youre pretty much in the ballpark. no worries. this isnt so much about god being jesus or not being jesus as it is about what god can and cannot do.

the society and witnesses do tout that jehovah is infinite in power and mercy and grace etc. etc. but when you say that jesus is god thy will say he cant be in heaven and earth at the same time. so how do they say he is with us if he isnt.

then i propose that their beliefs say he can be killed. instead of saying he would never become a man they would argue he cannot become a man.

where is the infinite power we read about in the bible.

and to those who see poor puntuation and lack of capital letters im posting from a phone and this site doest format well to a galaxy s. sorry

17

Jehovah Can Be Killed, as per the Watchtower's teachings

by arko_n9ne in

i know no one has brought this up publicly but with the watchtower teachings of death it brings up a valid point.

when anyone dies they dont go to heaven.

they stay in the ground.

arko_n9ne

yan its the paradox asking if god can make a rock so heavy even he cant lift it

n drew the poison has already shown its presense

prodigalson i tried explaining that since saturnalia ended on the 24th that christmas on the 25th isnt saturnalia. i explained the roman church set christmas as the 25th probably to divert people from another feast so theyd go to the church. i tried to give him an example but neither he nor i could come up with one. 20 minutes later i tell him i am making a lasagna for christmas and he tells me he cant come because his assembly is christmas weekend. i imagine sometimes imagine the flavor of mashed potato the watchtower turned his brain into.

17

Jehovah Can Be Killed, as per the Watchtower's teachings

by arko_n9ne in

i know no one has brought this up publicly but with the watchtower teachings of death it brings up a valid point.

when anyone dies they dont go to heaven.

they stay in the ground.

arko_n9ne

i know no one has brought this up publicly but with the watchtower teachings of death it brings up a valid point

when anyone dies they dont go to heaven. they stay in the ground. dead. even jesus before his resurrection was dead for three days and he needed jehovah to bring him back.

so if jehovah were to pour himself into flesh would it be possible to kill him

my jw brother in law says its impossible for god to fit his power into a human body. a man who created humanity from dirt and a rib. created the universe out of nothing. impossible.

i guess another question would be how could a jw look me in the eye and tell me there are things god cannot physically do.

11

jw-media's take on blood: huh?

by arko_n9ne in

this is my first post here, and i don't know if this has been talked about yet.

but today i was on the jw-media site to see what it was about.

i was curious how they handled their stance on blood and it was a bit of an annoying read.. from the site (http://www.jw-media.org/aboutjw/article01.htm#accept):.

arko_n9ne

@Sir82 You know, for a long time, I tried to grasp why someone could let themselves ignore facts that clearly showed them they were living in the wrong direction. I was like "I can change their mind" and fought hard. I'd never heard of cognitive dissonance before.

I got a copy of Shepherd the Flock, the 2010 Elder Manual and the 1991 Pay Attention to Yourselves and the Flock. I'd shown my fiance's brother that they have shifty practices. That in Shepherd the Flock, out of 12 Chapters, 10 were about disfellowshipping. That in Pay Attention, Elders are told that if a publisher needs spiritual correction or guidance, have them read Watchtower literature or encourage them to spend more time on service. That there is no mention of directing them to the bible.

I pointed out to him that in their study version of the Watchtower Magazine (showed him with his own copy), it refers to the bible as a reference bible. I brought up the story of the True Faith Jehovah's Witnesses and showed him in his copy of the Yearbook that in reference to the 1962 change in doctrine back to their 1929 belief of who the Superior Authorities were, they credited the New World Translation for helping them see the light brighter. Even though Rutherford, the writer of the 1929 belief used the KJV Bible to come to his conclusion.

I showed him the Watchtower's own writings saying that "even if a prophet is right most of the time, if he is wrong once, he isn't a prophet of Jehovah." And then directed him to the article "Millions Now Living Will Never Die" and 1914, 1918, 1925, and 1975. Also Beth Sarim's failure.

He acted like he didn't know about any of it.

A few days later, I joked about wanting to start a cult. He said "this isnt the time to do it. people are leaving religions, disillusioned." I told him it sounded like the perfect time and mentioned that the Watchtower had a good turnover rate. His response:

"That wouldn't work. Most people who leave the Organization don't go anywhere else because they know we're the Truth. So they stay away from other churches. Most of them come back and the ones who don't are embarrassed because they made the wrong decision and are too prideful to come back."

This man-child learned nothing. Seeing the proof of his error written under the Watchtower Copyright did nothing to free him. And I learned it's because he didn't want to. He spent most of his life in what he considers to be the Truth, and he doesn't have the stones to admit he wasted is time. He's rather be wrong than free.

21

Jehovah's Witness bogus NEUTRALITY claims during war examined

by Terry in

this detailed article presents a large number of give and take propositions, suppositions and conjectures.. it challenges ray franz chapter in crises of conscience on jw policy for mexico/malawi, et al.. http://settingtherecordstraight.wordpress.com/category/ray-franzs-conscience-not-really-in-crisis/.

the important fact missing from the consideration and analysis is that the watchtower society privately advised draft age brothers who were facing draft problems.

i was personally taken aside, for example, by the congregation overseer and his assistant to the kingdom hall library.

arko_n9ne

Neutrality is a joke. I live with my fiance and her two JW brothers live with us. They both have an opinion that the US is better than an Islamic nation. They both support the President and will make comments about the GOP. They both vocalize their opinions on the pointlessness of the war. All of their friends in the Society have vocalized opinions in war. It just seems that the only time neutrality is recognized is when it comes time to pay your dues or to serve.

To say "we are in the world, but we are not of it," it's a matter of picking and choosing. How much property does the Watchtower own, again? They will buy up the land in this world, which can be defended as "we're taking it from the world." But after they use Congregation donations, and free labor to flip the property, they sell the property for 3 to 40 times it's worth. How does making a profit in Satan's world remove you from it?
How does buying a quarter of the available land in a town and refuse to pay taxes under a farsical religious exemption remove you from the world?

Again, it seems they are only neutral and removed from the world when it comes to military or paying taxes.

11

jw-media's take on blood: huh?

by arko_n9ne in

this is my first post here, and i don't know if this has been talked about yet.

but today i was on the jw-media site to see what it was about.

i was curious how they handled their stance on blood and it was a bit of an annoying read.. from the site (http://www.jw-media.org/aboutjw/article01.htm#accept):.

arko_n9ne

hello everyone. this is my first post here, and I don't know if this has been talked about yet. But today I was on the jw-media site to see what it was about. I was curious how they handled their stance on blood and it was a bit of an annoying read.

from the site (http://www.jw-media.org/aboutjw/article01.htm#accept):

"Jehovah’s Witnesses request nonblood alternatives, which are widely used and accepted by the medical community. We do this because of the Bible’s command to “keep abstaining from . . . blood.” ( Acts 15:29 ; see also Genesis 9:3, 4 ; Leviticus 7:26, 27 ; 17:1, 2 , 10-12 ; Deuteronomy 12:23-25 .) While we refuse blood for religious rather than medical reasons, many have acknowledged that this refusal has helped the Witnesses to avoid contracting many costly and fatal diseases such as AIDS and hepatitis."

They also cite Acts 15:20, 21:25

My issues are threefold. First, none of their citations talk about blood transfusions. Mainly because the bible didn't talk about this modern concept. You would think that to be enough since this same article says they can use "blood fractions" because the bible has no stance on it. So if I understand correctly, the use numerous citations (all about eating or drinking blood) to defend their stance on not accepting transfusions.

My fiance's brother, who is a 20+ year Witness explained that when you are given a glucose IV, your body eats the fluid to keep you alive. So blood in an IV is the same.
I explained to him that the body cannot eat blood intravenously. The blood cells, red or white, cannot be broken down and used in the blood like glucose and vitamins. Even when you drink blood, it can make you sick because the body cannot use the blood as food. So an intravenous blood transfusion is in no way "eating" in the highly proven, Jehovah created world of science.

He replied, and I'm not making this up: "Yes, it is." He then went on to use as an excuse, point number two of my issues.

Blood transfusions WILL give you a disease. I've read all the literature the Watchtower offers on blood disease through transfusions. They offer statistics and the likelihood of getting them but fail to ever off a ratio or odds at comparison with never getting sick. I guess it's how it works with them. Make up an excuse that God said no, and when you prove He said no such things, you fear-bomb everyone you talk to.

Point three, and I'll wrap this up:
"keep abstaining from...blood" when you look at the actual scripture, doesn't this Watchtower paraphrase seem misleading?

Acts 15:20 Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from eating food offered to idols, from sexual immorality, from eating the meat of strangled animals, and from consuming blood.

Look at how much of Jehovah's Word was ignored in the attempt to garner an idea that blood should be avoided at all costs. It was Jewish law to refrain from eating blood because blood was the life source to them. The bible could in no way speak of a procedure that didnt exist until 1600 years after the death of Christ.

Thank you for reading. I'd love to hear your thoughts and opinions on this issue.

arko_n9ne

Posts by arko_n9ne