Posts by peacefulpete

108

Why is the Bible wrong?

by StinkyPantz in

this primarily goes out to other agnostics and athiests.

this week i got into two interesting conversations that i will admit that i was ill prepared for.

one was with a jw friend of mine who wanted to know why i thought jw's were wrong.

Hooberus...Ancient Near Eastern Texts edited by James Pritchard is a defintive source for this material. It has been printed in condensed form , meaning less documents not abrieviated translation, in paper back volumes. For a quite reasonable cost you can have a word for word translation of many of these Summerian, Ugarit, Babylonian, etc writings. Newer materials found or translated in the last 40 years may be available only through trade sources, scholarly periodicals and journals. For this material we must rely upon reference works and commentaries. You can understand that very very few people would buy a book with this material and therefore noone is publishing every new item as it comes to light. Students of paleolithography and ancient culture studies have access to more than most of us. However, if you ask at the library they may even have Prichard's books.

I am still troubled by your disinterest in the NT sources though. This is after all more pertinent to your faith. If you have carefully examined the site seedy first offered and you have no questions why have you not sought to discuss your spin of this material? Are you baiting us? Is it your intention to draw attention to differences in the stories to downplay the similarities. Doing so without having a feel for ancient mythology and religion would reflect only an arrogance that you in a few days know more than professors who have studied it a lifetime. Being we have tangoed before you understand my suspicion. If I am wrong please forgive me and ignore this last paragraph.

10

Why do you think......

by copsec in

so many people who come out of the borg are so depressed and angry and freaked out?????

i have been out for 7 years now and i am happier than i have ever been in my life and was from the very first moment i left!

the only reason i even go into ex-jw groups is i like to make fun of them and other exs are the only ones who understand what i am talking about when i make a funny comment??

peacefulpete

bona dia...they will at least see a model of thinking for and being honest to oneself.

16

Who Really Rules the World???

by ARoarer in

remember the tract that had a picture of a big scary looking hand with a grip around the earth and the title "who really rules the world?

" i never really read all of the words in it until last night when i was looking at my mail.

my husband laughed and said you'll never guess who wrote you a letter.

peacefulpete

Lost me ...The concept of evil ruling the world/whole inhabited earth is scriptural. This is an ancient concept predating Christianity by thousnads of years. It is offered as the explantion for evil. A benevolent God is somehow prevented from stopping the workings of an evil God.

16

Who Really Rules the World???

by ARoarer in

remember the tract that had a picture of a big scary looking hand with a grip around the earth and the title "who really rules the world?

" i never really read all of the words in it until last night when i was looking at my mail.

my husband laughed and said you'll never guess who wrote you a letter.

peacefulpete

Well first the Bible does say that the Devil rules the world so your quite reasonable objection is to the Bible not the JWs. I also think it is possible that you mailing ws someones field service. A number of years ago they emphasized letter writting as a form of preaching. Formaly you had to if you were a pioneer to list time spent letter writing separately on your report. The hours counted but they wanted to make sure noone stopped going out in service entirely. That is no longer necessary. Now many choose to spend service time writing a stranger who may live in an apartment or was not home when visited in person. So if you don't know them they probably don't know you and that your disfellowshipped.

108

Why is the Bible wrong?

by StinkyPantz in

this primarily goes out to other agnostics and athiests.

this week i got into two interesting conversations that i will admit that i was ill prepared for.

one was with a jw friend of mine who wanted to know why i thought jw's were wrong.

peacefulpete

Hooberus.. Your response made my heartfelt advice out to be a slam. It wasn't, Iv'e been where you are. Stop yourself for a monment and take a breath. The request for more information can be best filled by your reading books such as Frank Moore Cross' work entitled: Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic. The legends of old were fragmentary and short. In fact the Scolars who study writings from the time that the oldest parts of the Bible were supposedly written find no other lenghty narrative type literature in any culture. This is indirect evidence that the books were formed later utilizing perhaps much older material from poem and song. This means then that finding a 4000 year old book from pagan sources is not possible. We must utilize reference works that reprint the short often framentary pieces that have survived. Also other sources such as temple wall carvings (such as the Krishna birth narrative and crucifiction story that parallels Jesus'. The writtten texts only take us back to about the first century CE but the story was preserved on the wall in Tripetti-Elephantine and dates to 200 BC. This is confirmed by the writer Strabo who spoke of what he saw and who died before Jesus birth.) and inscriptions offer a look at the motifs and legends associated with the culture. A good source for such books is BBsmith.com they specialize in Bibical archeological books. Another fact that must be recognized is that there are no Bible copies older than he 2nd century BC. Also in the books from this time there is considerable variation in the tales. It is not possible to cover such a subject from every angle here. It will require you read a number of books for yourself. A last thought. The old book : The Bible as History by Keller is still in print and although it does not contain the newest findings and the author's faith does at times cloud his judgement it does introduce a person to the facts of history.

Edited by - peacefulpete on 6 February 2003 17:16:25

22

JWs & the Concept of Conscientious Objection

by Scully in

jehovah's witnesses and the concept of conscientious objection

- by scully .

the concept of conscientious objection is one that has existed for centuries and has been recognized under the principles of free exercise of religious beliefs in both american and canadian law.

peacefulpete

Air tight and provocative. I wish I had your gift for words.

108

Why is the Bible wrong?

by StinkyPantz in

this primarily goes out to other agnostics and athiests.

this week i got into two interesting conversations that i will admit that i was ill prepared for.

one was with a jw friend of mine who wanted to know why i thought jw's were wrong.

peacefulpete

Hooberous did you read and carefully consider the link provided by seedy? If you did and wish to discuss it I will provide more details. If not then your question must be viewed as insincere. The other guys here of course will do what they feel is constructive. Progress involves equal parts learning and unlearning. If a person only learns new things without evaluation of how this alters their ideas it will only become disconected trivia having no influence upon his thinking. Unlearning is painful as it involves threatening and dismantling beliefs that have seemed secure. While it is possible for everyone it is a minority whose desire for correctness will let them go there. It was said that belief that what is true of oneself is true for all is genius. Therefore being aware that our feelings of religious confidence are not unique to us is a first step. All believers in all faiths feel just as sure of the grounding of their faith. This confidence therefore is not the measure of accuracy of those beliefs. A willingness to consider the possibilitythat we are equally likely to be as mistaken as others of different faiths is not a common quality. Is it in you? Do some research, start with the link provided. We can talk if after this you have more questions. The other guys here of course will do what they feel is constructive.

17

To Be or Not To Be - Like God

by Satanus in

that is the question, brothers and sisters.

often the verse about having to be perfect as their god is perfect, is repeated by persons of the bible.

does that mean to imitate only their god's perfect qualities, while avoiding imitating his imperfect qualities/actions?

peacefulpete

The implication is in verse wherein Jeh says he will bless or curse depending upon the obedience of Isreal Then he lists terrible plagues and other monsterous deeds that he will curse with. The blesings include an absence of miscarriages and failed crops. Verses like Deut 28:18 says " cursed will be the fruit of your belly and your animal" (substance) if you disobey. Lev 26:21,22 says that cuse includes sending wild animals to eat your children. Ex 23:26 says Jeh would Bless them with no miscarriages IF they obey ,inplying the curse was the opposite. Hosea 9:14 has Jehovah's prophet praying that the unfaithful Jewish women uffer miscarriages. Chapter 13:16 says Jehovah will rip the bellys of the disobediance pregnant women open. The test of adultry wherein the accused is to drink bitter abortion causing water (belly swells and thigh ie:embryo and tissue, fell out) also speaks loudly. ( Numbers 5) The reward for not being found pregnant by another man was for her then to become pregnant by her accuser, WHAT A REWARD!

108

Why is the Bible wrong?

by StinkyPantz in

this primarily goes out to other agnostics and athiests.

this week i got into two interesting conversations that i will admit that i was ill prepared for.

one was with a jw friend of mine who wanted to know why i thought jw's were wrong.

peacefulpete

hooberus ...thats a tall order. The O.T. was a melding of Jewish origin legend with other Mesopotamian cult theologies reedited through the 3rd to 1rst centuries B.C. under Greek influence. The N.T. was a mix of possible historic kernels, Christian plagiarizing of O.T. stories, Greek, Persian, Indian, and Egyptian Savior stories, Mystery cult practices and ritual, and a hundred or more years of reediting. This information is readily available in book form or on line. Almost any word search ike "pagan Jesus" will produce essays and references. I and other have posted some of these uncanny parallels but you have not seen fit to consider them. This information is no longer in dispute in the scholarly community. Authors like Robert Nash and Shadon Gutherie ,both Baptists, hae published books in an effort to belittle the mountain of research on the subject. Their arguements are poor and never address the issues. Mostly they say," nobody really believes that" when at a loss for what else to say. Or begin splitting hairs about theological differences in an effort to make Christianity appear new and original. I will not engage in a debate. It is worth mentioning that due to the multiple influences upon Christianity's formation authors on this subject differ as to the extent one influence had over another. This can be unsettling to those of us unfamiliar with how research is done. Noone but a few fundementalistwriters deny the basic indebtedness of Christianity to previous faiths, only one of which was Judaism.

8

Dubs And The Matrix

by SYN in

yours truly has probably posted something similiar to this before, but yours truly also happens to be too lazy to wade through 9 pages of previous threads to go & look for it.. this is one of my more serious posts .

now, while i do definitely take interest in the writings and rantings of the conspiracy theorists out there, that is all they are, theories.

i have yet to see any of these theories being vindicated.

peacefulpete

Nice comments...The Matrix movie was deliberately drawing frm the familiar Christian tory as many sci-fi stories do. The part I enjoyed most was when their comrad turns traitor in exchange for his returning to the matrix with memories erased. I asked myself, would I prefer to not know the facts that have now changed me forever? Who would I be willing to hurt to have my ignorance back? Or would I be strong and face the facts, knowing this will require a reinventing of myself. We the audience in such a movie are faced with some soul seaching questions.