Posts by peacefulpete

26

What if JWs voted in elections?

all this political banter is exhausting, so i want to ask a question that has probably been asked before, so here it goes….

let’s try to keep this non-partisan - just give your opinion and why you think that way.. i’ll go first.

i think jws would generally lean to the right, but not by a whole lot.

peacefulpete

Funny how many of the Christian Right decry undeserving welfare recipients while praising a God who gave them undeserved grace.

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

peacefulpete

Moreover, if the early Church had simply invented authorship to lend credibility to these texts, they likely would have chosen more prominent apostles like Peter or James.

Of course, there already were Gospels of Peter and James, and they were very popular.

While this is an interesting interpretation, it lacks solid historical evidence. The idea of a Messiah ben Joseph is not attested in Jewish writings until much later, primarily in rabbinic literature.

(1) David C. Mitchell, Messiah ben Joseph in the Babylonian Talmud, Review of Rabbinic Judaism 8 (2005): 77-90 | David C Mitchell - Academia.edu

(1) Messiah bar Ephraim in the Targums | David C Mitchell - Academia.edu

Jesus reinterpreted this expectation in a radical way, claiming that His own body was the true Temple (John 2:19-21)

The expectation that a Messiah would build the temple is again from Zechariah. 6:
12Then say to him, ‘The LORD of armies says this: “Behold, there is a Man whose name is [f]Branch, for He will [g]branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD. 13Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the majesty and sit and rule on His throne..."

This Is also where the 30 pieces of silver element comes from.

On this topic see an old thread I did.

In short it seems at an early stage this tradition was altered. The statement was perceived as a Messianic claim, but as time went on it became necessary to adjust this element. Matt and Mark distance Jesus from the statement by saying it was a lie, but the Gospel John instead has him say it but turns it into a metaphor.

Sorry I have trouble with the quote function sometimes.

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

peacefulpete

aqwsed.....I'm sure you are sincere and the response you just posted was convincing to you.

The evangelists do not idealize Jesus: they describe how some people despise Christ because He is the carpenter's son (Mt. 13:54), etc.
However, if the evangelists were frauds, as Bauer (19th century) claimed, they would have certainly omitted these unfavorable details!

Or more likely the writer used the term 'tekton' craftsman/builder due to the popularized interpretation of Zech 1. There would 4 craftsman who would serve as Messianic figures. The One called Messiah ben Joseph (son of Joseph) would be killed but another named Messiah ben David would succeed in conquering the enemies of Israel. It was brilliant use of OT source material for the Gospels to say Jesus as the son of Joseph was killed but as son of David, he would be a conqueror.

There is also the then common expectation that the Messiah would rebuild the Temple at play.

And of course, the standard trope of humble beginning (such as David, Moses etc.) and reversal of fate/expectations (peripeteia) is at play. Fleshing out the story using OT and related materials as well as literary standards.

33

Museum Pic

by peacefulpete in

a lot of ink has been spilled on the topic of the cross.

the wt felt it had uncovered some deep conspiracy when they found a number of words were used to describe how jesus was understood to have been killed.

there was an extensive thread many years ago that in short strongly supports the conclusion that at least some nt writers envisioned a cross, while others had a tree in mind.

peacefulpete

btt

21

2nd Isaiah 49:6

by peacefulpete in

6 and he said, it is too small a thing that thou shouldest be servant to me to raise up the sons of jacob, and to bring back the netzurei yisroel (preserved of israel,); i will also give thee for ohr goyim, that thou mayest be my yeshuah unto the ketzeh ha’aretz.. 2nd isaiah, actually an anonymous prophet at the time of cyrus, did his best to inspire and hearten his fellow countrymen.

many judahites had lost hope and even lost faith.

the explanations offered by previous prophets, namely that their own sins had resulted in their situation, were not adequate nor convincing.

peacefulpete

btt

43

Did Jesus Die On a Stake or a Cross?

by Sea Breeze in

dominic enyart exposes watchtower deception regarding their demonization of the cross.

information packed.

interesting take on paganism as well.

peacefulpete

btt

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

peacefulpete

The Gospels are not just creative adaptations to make Christianity more accessible; they are rooted in the eyewitness testimony of those who knew and followed Jesus. Early Christians did not believe in an abstract Christ who existed only in the spiritual realm—

That of course the often-repeated orthodoxy of believers. You are aware however that the Gospels themselves are anonymous works. The names in the identical superscriptions on each were chosen by someone in the mid/late 2nd century with the idea of masking the fact that the Synoptics especially are in fact revisions of the same document and create the myth that they were produced by eyewitness and associates. It seems somewhat ironic that 2 men who were said to be illiterate, (perhaps as a literary device explaining their having not written anything) were later assigned as authors of Gospels. Many other Gospels were similarly attributed to characters within the Gospel story or Pauline material. It is special pleading to insist these 4 are different. Was the Gospel of Thomas written by Thomas? The Gospel of Judas, the Gospel of Barnabus, Gospel of Peter, the Gospel of Nicodemus and many others?? If the motive for assigning these works to 'eyewitnesses' was to add persuasiveness, why not assume the same for the other 4.

You again returned to a statement that 'early' Christians believed in a Jesus as the Gospels describe. What you think of as "early" is in my mind already the 2nd or 3rd layer of the onion.

Ascn, of Isaiah again:

11. His eyes indeed were open, but his mouth was silent, and the mind in his body was taken up from him.

12. But his breath was (still) in him, for he was seeing a vision.

13. And the angel who was sent to show him (the vision) was not of this firmament, nor was he from the angels of glory of this world, but he came from the seventh heaven.

14. And the people who were standing by, apart from the circle of prophets, did [not] think that the holy Isaiah had been taken up.

15. And the vision which he saw was not from this world, but from the world which is hidden from the flesh.

It must be acknowledged that at least some 'early' Christians such as the author and readers of this work (and likely Paul as well) did not understand the passion drama as earthly.

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

peacefulpete

Comparing this development to how Hinduism may have turned metaphors into literal stories overlooks the unique emphasis that Christianity places on historical revelation. While there are metaphorical elements in Christian teaching, the core of the faith is grounded in historical claims about Jesus’ actions and identity.

This comment could be taken as a confirmation of my earlier statements. In the marketplace of ideas, the forms of Christianity that euhemerized the Christ as a guy walking around Palestine doing countless miracles before being killed by humans, had an advantage over the esoteric revelatory versions. In my mind it is easier to create a cult of a man than a cult based upon what might have sounded like a metaphysical abstraction. The addition of the Gospel narratives unquestionably saved Christianity from obscurity.

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

peacefulpete

Is this page loading oddly for everyone else? The comment box is in the center of th page.

Perhaps my word choice was poor. I'm quite impressed by the mystical origins model of the faith. Belief of a revelatory mystical event would be regarded as 'historical' by those so convinced. Perhaps I should have used expressions like earthbound or material.

There seems two points that bear mentioning, one that earliest Christians could have, and I suspect they did, understood the death and resurrection very differently. Before the Gospel narrative tradition that fleshed out the Christ in recent corporeal terms, the drama may have been thought of as happening in the spirit realm. Pre-Christian texts betray a belief that the heavens were a mirror of the earth in ways that seem foreign to us. The ascension of Isaiah is a marvelous peek into pre-Orthodox thought and there we find the simple expression" “As above, so below". The multilevel heavens included scenes much like the earth, trees grew there, and in fact the tree of life was thought to be there. Also, heavenly spirits were busy conducting sacrifices to God on an alter in heaven. Given these facts, it is not a stretch to think the death and rising up was an entirely, or mostly, heavenly drama.

The Ascension of Isaiah is a marvelous find, apart from some rather obvious later edits, reveals a Christianity completely without the Gospel narrative. The Christ descends through the layers of heaven unrecognized by the spirits of heaven and below.

10:

8 “Go out and descend through all the heavens. You shall descend through the firmament and through that world as far as the angel who (is) in Sheol, but you shall not go as far as Perdition.
9 And you shall make your likeness like that of all who (are) in the five heavens,
10 and you shall take care to make your form like that of the angels of the firmament and also (like that) of the angels who (are) in Sheol.
11 And none of the angels of that world shall know that you (are) Lord with me of the seven heavens and of their angels. And they shall not know that you (are) with me
12 when with the voice of the heavens I summon you, and their angels and their lights, and when I lift up (my voice) to the sixth heaven, that you may judge and destroy the princes and the angels and the gods of that world, and the world which is ruled by them,...
9:14 And the god of that world will stretch out [his hand against the Son], and they will lay their hands upon him andhang him upon a tree, not knowing who he is.
15 And thus his descent, as you will see, will be concealed even from the heavens so that it will not be known who he is.
16 And when he has plundered the angel of death, he will rise on the third day

This certainly reminds us of 1 Cor 2:8

None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Apart from a few suspect passages and the insertion of a doxological hymn, Paul in the most probably authentic works offers us nothing about the years Jesus was to have spent on earth, nor does he show any interest in interviewing those who the Gospels (not written yet) describe as intimate associates. Rather he declares and swears he learned nothing from anyone else, but only through revelation and visions when he was taken to what he assumes was "the third heaven".

Paul seems to reflect a Christology more akin to Ascension of Isaiah than the Gospels.

Secondly, the intertextual nature of the Gospel narrative betrays the source of these stories was not collective memory but typological pesher of OT stories. I used to use the term Midrash-like but learned some Jews are passionately protective of the expression.

For a sample of this process, some years ago Leolaia put together a marvelous composition identifying the ingredients to the Judas betrayal and arrest.

The Evolution of Judas Iscariot.

So while undoubtedly you are correct that death and resurrection of Christ was a pivotal break from the Jewish precedents, it was likely inspired by a growing interest in martyrdom and suffering prophets of old as well as other mystery faiths featuring a similar sense of divinity and sacrifice. I'm not going to invite criticism regarding direct links between Christianity and other Mystery faiths as I'm aware of the overstated popular suggestions of copycatting. It would however be a mistake to overlook the cultural realities of the day.

I'm sure none of this will persuade someone convinced their faith represents the 'one truth faith', but for me it fits the facts and certainly offers an explanation for Paul's statements of faith and works like the Ascn. of Isaiah and the many Gnostic forms of Christianity.

152

Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat in

i would suggest:.

the short answer is yes.. the longer answer is a qualified yes, with some caveats.

the short answer is yes because jehovah’s witnesses teach that jesus is michael the archangel, their leader, eldest and most powerful, and have taught this since the very beginning of the religion.

peacefulpete

I agree with the spirit of your comments. My focus is upon the faith of the earliest believers in a revelatory Christ. Attempting to model their complex transformation into a powerful institution. I think it reasonable to begin where the faith broke from its roots, Judaism. I think you do as well. Am I arguing there was no 'break''? of course not. At some early phase a new 'revelation' identified one sect from another. This process repeated many times. Such is why in a short span of time we find seemingly radically different schools of thought under the umbrella of Christianity. Johannine Christians, perhaps a century or more later, IMO represent a response to some of these developments. It's my opinion it preserves, in a post-Gospel way, some of the earlier flavor. Briefly said, the break from Hellenized Judaism was real but yet it was no more radical than Docetism from its precedents, or that of the scores of other 'heterodoxies' the later Catholic church denounced in its efforts to homogenize Christianity into a powerful institution.

While many find the notion radical or fringe, considering the possibility that Christianity followed a path similar to most faiths, beginning as a concept rather than an historical event, is quite rational. Having spent years in a Hindu culture, I observed just how seamlessly the mind can transform spiritual/metaphor into live action characters. The less initiated can be excused for literalizing stories of Ganesh, Lord Vishnu and countless other emanations of Brahman. Millenia of dramatization through story telling have given these 'concepts' a temporality/corporeality not intended by their Vedic faith's founders. Many reformed Jews would understand the same took place in their faith. Yahweh walking around in his park or riding a chariot and such.

Ultimately every faith is unique and at the same time indebted to its precedents.