Posts by KalebOutWest

18

Changing the Date of the Memorial?

by KalebOutWest in

i noticed in the latest memorial invitation, the dates for the observance are odd--well far more odd than usual.. what i mean is that forever as i can remember, jehovah's witnesses use to advertise really big that this was nisan 14. they don't tend to do this anymore.. and being jewish, their dates now tend to align with passover, or at least with the second seder night of passover.. 2025: saturday, april 12 (nisan 15).

2026: thursday, april 2 (nisan 15/16).

2027: monday, march 22 (nisan 15/16).

KalebOutWest

Nissan 14 is always the first full moon after the spring equinox.

Not on the Jewish calendar, Duran. I'm a Jew.

There are 30 days to a Jewish month. Each month is Lunar. The middle of each month is the 15th. That is the day of the full moon.

Passover 2025: NISAN 15

While it is true that Jewish Scripture say that we are to "observe the festival of Passover" beginning on the "14th day of the month," that is because we begin doing that much like Christians begin observing Christmas on Christmas Eve, not on December 25th but on the 24th of December.

On the 14th day of Nisan all the leaven in Jewish homes is to be gotten rid of, either by eating and using up, selling, giving away, or burning it. Back in the days of the Temple, at 3 pm, the priests began slaughtering all the lambs, thousands of them, for the Seder meals, as that was the only way to get a kosher lamb for your plate in those days. Josephus said that in 70 CE he counted 256,500 Korban Pesach (kosher lambs) prepared by sundown, the 15th of Nisan, the beginning of Passover. In 65 CE, Josephus claimed there were “not less than three million” that had gathered for the celebration.(Josephus, Wars, 2:280) Yet as Josephus, the Talmud, and all other historical records verify, the Jews have always observed the 14th of Nisan as Preparation Day and Nisan 15 as the 1st day of Passover.

Use AI and ask if the Jews changed the date and you will see that this never happened. That is a Watchtower belief. It has always been on Nisan 15. The 14th is the eve, the day to prepare.

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

KalebOutWest

The Amidah (or T'filah) is the central prayer in the three major prayer services of most Jews: morning, afternoon, and evening.

What you are reading is merely a line from it that (in some denominations) changes according to the weather that one would normally experience in the land of Israel (namely from December 4th until the first day of Passover).

It does not mean that Jews believe that God is directly involved in the weather.

In fact, Jews do not believe that God actually listens to prayer. He might, but then again God might not. That is not what prayer is about in Judaism.

It is sort of difficult to talk about prayer in English because we are not using the same word that we use in Hebrew for "prayer." In English, the word "prayer" means to "ask." But the word in Hebrew doesn't mean that.

The Hebrew word t'filah means to judge oneself, to inspect what you are. This is why Jewish prayers consist of fixed words.

Instead of believing that one's prayers are being heard by God or one is asking God for something, like Jehovah's Witnesses do, Jews are doing something entirely different. Jews believe they are mostly hearing God talk to them.

Much of the prayers consist of words from the Psalms and Scripture as well as from the sages that go back to what was said as far back to the days when there was a Temple. When offerings were made, some of these words in the Siddur (where one finds the Amidah) were actually being said, morning, afternoon, and evening. So these words are combined together, blessing God, blessing the time of day, and literally thanking God for where one is in that moment.

There is little in the way of requests in Jewish prayer. Even when one is sick or one dies, prayer is blessing God, asking that one learns to accept their place in the constant changes of reality, blessing these as they come, etc.

Those statements about the weather, for example, are merely used to address the changes one sees in the winter as opposed to the summer when they get to that place in the Amidah.

Why fixed prayers? To learn what we should value, what we should pray for. To be at one with our people, the household of Israel. To ensure that the ideals painfully learned and purified, and for which many have lived and died, shall not perish from the community, and shall have a saving influence upon the individual.--Chaim Stern.

18

Changing the Date of the Memorial?

by KalebOutWest in

i noticed in the latest memorial invitation, the dates for the observance are odd--well far more odd than usual.. what i mean is that forever as i can remember, jehovah's witnesses use to advertise really big that this was nisan 14. they don't tend to do this anymore.. and being jewish, their dates now tend to align with passover, or at least with the second seder night of passover.. 2025: saturday, april 12 (nisan 15).

2026: thursday, april 2 (nisan 15/16).

2027: monday, march 22 (nisan 15/16).

KalebOutWest

I am thinking that they may have just done this right now, this year.

2020

MEMORIAL : April 7--Nisan 14

PASSOVER: April 8--Nisan 15

2021

MEMORIAL & PASSOVER

March 25 -- Nisan 15

2022

MEMORIAL : April 10--Nisan 10

PASSOVER : April 15--Nisan 15

2023

MEMORIAL: April 4--Nisan 14

PASSOVER: April 5--Nisan 15

2024

MEMORIAL : April 12--Nisan 4

PASSOVER: April 22--Nisan 15

So now things have changed drastically since last year. How are they calculating things? Why no mention of Nisan 14 on their invitations anymore? I used to remember that and how we used to talk about that in our door-to-door work and with our Bible studies. We used to point that out with the unique Bible readings marked on the calendars that Bethel used to print for us (remember those?). It's not anywhere on the invitation any longer.

Notice now the change again in the dates.

2025

MEMORIAL/PASSOVER

April 12--Nisan 15

2026

MEMORIAL: April 2--Nisan 16

PASSOVER: April 1--Nisan 15

2027

MEMORIAL: March 22--Nisan 16

PASSOVER: March 21--Nisan 15

Strange, no?

18

Changing the Date of the Memorial?

by KalebOutWest in

i noticed in the latest memorial invitation, the dates for the observance are odd--well far more odd than usual.. what i mean is that forever as i can remember, jehovah's witnesses use to advertise really big that this was nisan 14. they don't tend to do this anymore.. and being jewish, their dates now tend to align with passover, or at least with the second seder night of passover.. 2025: saturday, april 12 (nisan 15).

2026: thursday, april 2 (nisan 15/16).

2027: monday, march 22 (nisan 15/16).

KalebOutWest

I noticed in the latest Memorial Invitation, the dates for the observance are odd--well far more odd than usual.

What I mean is that forever as I can remember, Jehovah's Witnesses use to advertise really big that this was NISAN 14. They don't tend to do this anymore.

And being Jewish, their dates now tend to align with Passover, or at least with the second Seder night of Passover.

2025: Saturday, April 12 (Nisan 15)

2026: Thursday, April 2 (Nisan 15/16)

2027: Monday, March 22 (Nisan 15/16)

The last two are generally the 16th, depending on where you are on earth, but you see what I am getting at. None of these is in any way the 14th.

It used to be that they were too, too early, like three days early sometimes. They would make a big deal saying how Jews were ways off and celebrating Passover on the wrong day. Now they are observing the Memorial on Passover because on each of these dates we are observing Passover too as we hold a Seder on the first and second nights, the 15th and the 16th.

Did they change their calculation as of late? And why no mention of Nisan 14 like they used to do? Are they no longer sure?

Lunar months are 30 days. All Jewish feasts (except for Chanukah) land on the 15th, so we can celebrate under the full moon (Jewish days begin at night, so this aided in holding a big party at night). The moon is full on the 15th (not 14th) on a lunar month, and thus Passover like all the other feasts begins on the 15th, not the 14th. I think they just learned this and have quitely shifted things perhaps? It was the Millerites who made the mistake of the Passover on the 14th, and Russell carrying that over. I was wondering if they were ever going to catch on.

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

KalebOutWest

Peacefulpete wrote:

It seems many of the Jews assign that role to the Logos.

Actually this was only what Philo wrote, not what Jews believed or understood about the universe or God, etc..

Philo's work is still studied by many scholars today for its historical and philosophical significance. While he was a Jew, he was not necessarily always writing as a Jew or claiming that what he was saying was representing wide stream Jewish through. There is no such thing. There is general Jewish practice, but there is no and never has been a single mainstream Jewish dogma. (As the saying goes: two Jews, three synagogues.)

Philo of Alexandria (c. 20 BCE--50 CE) was neither a rabbi or a Jewish theologian. He was a Hellenistic philosopher. He just so happened to be of Jewish descent, so people tend to think that because he had Jewish DNA everything he said or wrote about was a Jewish thesis representing official Jewish thought or worthy of some Jewish version of the imprimatur. Not so.

Philo was experimenting with breaking through to his Jewish contemporaries by introducing to them what he loved about Greek philosophy, particularly Platonism, and thought he could reconcile Greek philosophy with Jewish theology somehow in order to get Jews to somehow become what he was, namely a Hellenist.

Philo's work heavily influenced Christians, especially the theology of the Gospel of John where Jesus Christ is identified as the incarnate Logos. However there are significant differences between Philo's philosophical theories and the Christian incarnation. Philo saw the Logos as Divine Reason and a Creative Power, often as an intermediary being between God and the created world.

Philo's teachings were not accepted by mainstream Judaism because Philo was attempting to replace religious concepts with Greek philosophy, particularly Platonism, using these ideas as a substitute for the Hebrew Scriptures. As you might imagine, such a suggestion did not sit well with the Jewish scholars and rabbinical teachers of the time. (A similar suggestion was made by Rabbi Sherwin Wine in the late 1960s, suggesting that Humanism replace theistic language in the Reform liturgy, which as you can imagine was met with a similar response.)

Philo left more of a mark on Christianity than an on his own people as the Christians employed Hellenistic thought to help explain facets of the Trinity. Judaism speaks of the universe in very naturalistic terms and has since its beginnings. While there have been attempts, like Philo and even during the Persian Era to introduce various philosophies and dabbles with the supernatural, the view that God is part of the natural universe and vice versa always tends to win out (though again, there is no one dogmatic set of doctrines on the matter).

8

Who's got it wrong - Daniel or the evil slave?

by BoogerMan in

w98 2/1 p. 22 par.

16 - "what of the dead who are resurrected on earth?...they also will have to love the name of jehovah, ministering to him, offering acceptable sacrifices......".

(daniel 9:26, 27) "and after the 62 weeks, mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.....and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice......to cease.

KalebOutWest

The information I posted is to give various options to counter the views of the Watchtower--and only against the views of the Watchtower.

I have nothing against anyone's personal views. There are various ways individuals who left the religion of the Jehovah's Witnesses can embrace and interpret the Bible.

8

Who's got it wrong - Daniel or the evil slave?

by BoogerMan in

w98 2/1 p. 22 par.

16 - "what of the dead who are resurrected on earth?...they also will have to love the name of jehovah, ministering to him, offering acceptable sacrifices......".

(daniel 9:26, 27) "and after the 62 weeks, mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.....and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice......to cease.

KalebOutWest

In so doing, he refuted the interpretation found in the book of Maccabees, indicating that the verses in Daniel, which include the phrase “abomination causing desolation,” point to a future date.

Or, as the above Bible commentaries explain, the reference is that as the heathen Antiochus once caused sacrilege and desolation, stopping the sacrifices of the Temple, so would the pagan Romans.

Apocalypse is a genre that allows for multiple and even generational interpretation, states the editorial staff of both the Jewish and SBL Study Bibles.

These are not my personal views.

8

Who's got it wrong - Daniel or the evil slave?

by BoogerMan in

w98 2/1 p. 22 par.

16 - "what of the dead who are resurrected on earth?...they also will have to love the name of jehovah, ministering to him, offering acceptable sacrifices......".

(daniel 9:26, 27) "and after the 62 weeks, mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.....and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice......to cease.

KalebOutWest

The commentary from the following Bibles, namely The SBL Study Bible, The Catholic Study Bible, The Jewish Study Bible, and The New Oxford Annotated Bible with Apocrypha (using all the most recent editions) generally agree that the verses in Daniel refer to the Maccabean Revolt, the Jewish uprising against the Seleucid Empire that took place from 167–160 BCE.

They define the verses from Daniel 9:26-27 almost exactly the same as follows (the NRSV Updated Edition is being employed in the following):

After the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing,

Sixty-two weeks, a round number to describe the period down from the 70 weeks (9:24) that point to the arrival of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Anointed one, Onias III, the deposed high priest who was murdered in 171 BCE (see 2 Macc 4:32-34).

and the troops of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The prince, Antiochus IV Epiphanes. The city and the sanctuary, Jerusalem and the Temple.

Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. He shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,

He shall make a strong covenant with many, describing the falling away of many Jews to hellenizing practices at 1 Macc 1:11-15.

and for half of the week he shall make sacrifice and offering cease,

A description of when Antiochus stops legitimate sacrifices and Jewish practice in Jerusalem (see Daniel 7:25).

and in their place shall be a desolating sacrilege until the decreed end is poured out upon the desolator.

The desolating sacrilege was described as a pig sacrificed to the Greek gods on the altar to YHWH. This ignited the war for religious freedom fought under the command of Judas Maccabeus which would in turn lead to the desolator being defeated, the re-dedication of the altar and Temple, and the yearly celebration of Chanukah.

13

Elders, Jews and Dead Bunnies

by KalebOutWest in

i thought i would give my personal experience on who i am, how i came into the world of watchtower, why i left, etc.

this would explain a lot about the answers i give and why they don't directly reflect my personal convictions (like a normal person--and i do mean that literally, kinda).

i cannot put everything here, but i can start bit by bit.. when i was 17 years old, my mother was on her third marriage and kinda starting her fourth (as she was dating this surfer dude-like guy who wasn't even 5 years older than me).

KalebOutWest

I am happy to receive any criticism that comes my way. Thank you for it.

The story was meant to come in four more parts. Like most stories, it wasn't going to explain everything right away. I gather, however, that either you just do not wish to read it or you just wish to criticize it as I go along. And that is great! I am happy for you.

I am not a victim. I am successful in life. I have a family and a successful career. I have been here on this site I guess for all the wrong reasons, so if I have failed at anything it was that.

But as you say, you have every right to do and feel as you wish. Please continue. I will stop and not continue with anything more.

Best wishes.

13

Elders, Jews and Dead Bunnies

by KalebOutWest in

i thought i would give my personal experience on who i am, how i came into the world of watchtower, why i left, etc.

this would explain a lot about the answers i give and why they don't directly reflect my personal convictions (like a normal person--and i do mean that literally, kinda).

i cannot put everything here, but i can start bit by bit.. when i was 17 years old, my mother was on her third marriage and kinda starting her fourth (as she was dating this surfer dude-like guy who wasn't even 5 years older than me).

KalebOutWest

Happy Chanukah 😊