Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

While you may not have realized this, you have actually mixed three different types of prayer and offered them as an example as if there were all the same. This is common for those who come from a Watchtower background.

Jews, remember, had their religion and culture first, and then the Bible afterwards. This means the worship, rituals and prayers came first and these influenced what you find in the Scriptures, not the other way around. These prayers and rituals are called "liturgy," a formal structure of worship that Jehovah's Witnesses don't have, but other religions do, even other Christians like Catholics, Orthodox Christians, even Protestants like Lutherans and Episopalians and Anglicans.

The prayers of Jews are litrugical. The prayers in the Hebrew Bible are narratives.

Then you added the prayers of Jesus. These have nothing to do with Judaism. The instructions of Jesus fly in a total different direction of Jewish prayer at times, and sometimes contradict within themselves. There is some evidence to suggest that some of the instruction on prayer of Jesus comes directly from the Nazareth rabbi, but some of it might come from his followers. I will not cover that here, but the best thing to note is that you cannot mix Jewish with Christian and expect that they are the same thing. They are not.

Jewish views on prayer has changed over time as Judaism is not a static religion like Christianity. We are not based on the views of a central authority. Christianity cannot move away from its views due to it being based on the teachings of Jesus. Judaism is actually a civilization with a religion in it. The religious views are on a spectrum and evolve over time as the community grows and faces new challenges.

The Scriptures explain the views on God during various eras including the eras of Moses, the Judges, and the Prophets. The comprehension of God changes during each of these eras from an entity that creates to one that demands sacrifice and fights war to one that has no desire for the blood spilled on altars and wants all people from all nations to pray to Him. God is merely another "character" in the narratives of Scripture in order for people to relate to stories and learn their lessons. The prayers offered are no more genuine than the miracles.

Is God real? What is God? Is there a personal God? Does God require worship? Does God listen to prayer? What is the real purpose of prayer? Is prayer even necessary? Are there other ways to "pray"? This is what and how Israel worships today. The very word "Israel" means to "wrestle with God."

Judaism is not filled with answers like the Watchtower religion advertises. It is a means to ask questions, a healthy means to ask. You have to find your own and live with the answers you find. That is what Judaism teaches.

Christians like definitive answers. Jews do not offer those.

The search is part of the journey. The journey is part of what it means to be Jewish.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

KalebOutWest

Pete,

I don't know what you want.

These are not my personal thoughts or views. They come from every book I've every taught from.

Alexander the Great didn't live long, Antiochus IV Epiphanes didn't succeed in snuffing out the practice of Judaism, and the Hasmonean dynasty lasted 100 years after the first Chanukah. In fact, the Hasmoneans persecuted Jews who did not accept their form of right-wing Judaism. They even murdered those Jews that did not agree with them.

That same group that the Hasmoneans were systematically killing rose up when the Herodian family took control under Roman rule. You likely heard of them--the Pharisees.

So, no, there was not 300 years of Hellenistic control or thought in Judaism.

You make up things, Pete. That is why people argue with you. I don't care to.

You're not an academic. You can't read other languages. You make up theories. And you enjoy the fantastic fantasies you create, arguing with people who don't agree with you, talking it personal.

Nobody can win with you, Pete. To you, it's just you and your views.

I don't even believe in Jesus.

27

Do children still get destroyed at Armageddon?

by Anony Mous in

i know back in the day, that was taught, that if the parents were going to be destroyed, so would the children.

i just can't easily find reference to anything.

this thinking has been used to justify some egregious behavior towards children and their parents such as exclusion of children from jw family - why worry, the end is near, all will work itself out then - the end didn't come though.

KalebOutWest

My weekly neighborhood congregation bookstudy conductor...

I remember him literally smiling during the book study and saying: "Jehovah has to kill the children too because they will grow up one day and rebel, being angry at Jehovah for killing their parents at Armageddon. So that is why God has to kill them when the day comes. It is only makes sense. That is what a just God would do."

He would sit and point at those pictures of destruction of people dying and falling into cracks, asking us what lessons we learned from the images of humans losing their lives at the hand of Jehovah.

This is the same one who used to tell me I wasn't Jewish when I was growing up after I had to live with my aunt and would tell me things like "you Jews are Jesus-murderers" and that the Holocaust was Jehovah's punishment to insult the Jews, etc., etc.

The man used to sit across from me during our weekly one-on-one Bible studies and show me pictures of Jerusalem and tell me about the unrest in the city and say: "This is what your people deserve for rejecting Jesus as the Messiah."

The man had some serious problems with bloodlust.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

KalebOutWest

Since the Hellenistic period was so short lived in Judaism, Philo's work had no influence, at least for Judaism itself. He did, however, influence Christianity, but not until the Church Father's discovered his work.

We are not sure if John is discussing Philo, but we are certain that the Church Fathers do when settling the Trinitatian doctrine issue.

Philo lived between 20 BCE to 40 CE and he was likely using terms based on Judaism to try to influence Jews, but it did not work. If he had been born during the Jewish Enlightenment, that would have different.

The Jewish Enlightenment, also known as the Haskalah, was an intellectual movement that took place in Central and Eastern Europe from the 1770s to the 1880s.The Haskalah was inspired by the European Enlightenment, but had a Jewish character. Some of Philo's works even came to the fore among Jews during this time, being rediscovered, along with Spinoza's.

Again, that would have been much different if Philo were born and trying to advance his ideas then.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

KalebOutWest

Peacefulpete wrote:

In Jewish Hellenism that included the concept of Satan. What was initially thought of as a servant of God, the accuser, in the heavenly court, morphed into a figure of rebellion. The chief archon was held to be such a figure in Gnostic circles and the ideas converged.

Judaism had a very brief Hellenistic period (roughly 323-30 BCE) that was introduced mainly by the invasion of the culture via Alexander the Great’s invasion, but mostly through the influence after his death. It was short lived, dying out due to the failure of the Seleucid attempt to wipe out Judaism by the Hasmoneans via the Maccabean Revolt.

During the Hellenistic period, Jewish society encountered Greek philosophy and mythology, which includes ideas about demons and cosmic struggles between good and evil. The character of ha Satan or “the Satan” in the book of Job was ideally settled during this time, some suggest, but the concept of Satan in Judaism differs significantly from the Christian depiction.

Judaism defines Satan primarily as an agent of God, a tester of faith, or a personification of the "evil inclination" within humans. In Judaism, “Satan” can be a person or even God himself, and thus Jews don’t typically portray Satan as an independent, all-powerful force of evil opposed to God.

Christianity depicts Satan as a fallen angel, a rebellious creature who seeks to oppose God and tempt humans into sin. Satan the Devil is considered an enemy of both God and man, a powerful, malevolent entity with significant autonomy. This is very different from the ha Satan of Hellenistic Jewry.

It should also be noted that Satan the Devil is not considered an “archon” by mainstream or nominal Christianity. It is even heresy in Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity to use that term for Satan.

This term originates from the Gnostics and their set of beliefs that the Church Fathers consider anathema. In Gnosticism, archons are considered malevolent, lesser deities that rule over the material world and hinder spiritual enlightenment. Catholics believe Satan is a fallen angel, a creature created by God who rebelled and was cast out of Heaven. He is seen as the source of evil and temptation, but ultimately subordinate to God. While Satan might have influence, the Devil is not a deity or ruler.

18

Changing the Date of the Memorial?

by KalebOutWest in

i noticed in the latest memorial invitation, the dates for the observance are odd--well far more odd than usual.. what i mean is that forever as i can remember, jehovah's witnesses use to advertise really big that this was nisan 14. they don't tend to do this anymore.. and being jewish, their dates now tend to align with passover, or at least with the second seder night of passover.. 2025: saturday, april 12 (nisan 15).

2026: thursday, april 2 (nisan 15/16).

2027: monday, march 22 (nisan 15/16).

KalebOutWest

Duran,

Jewish days begin at sunset.

At sunset on April 12, Nisan 14 changes to Nisan 15.

Pesach starts on the 15th day of the Hebrew month of Nisan, which is considered the first month of the Hebrew year. The Rabbinical Jewish calendar is adjusted to align with the solar calendar in such a way that 15 Nisan always coincides with Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday, or Saturday. The Hebrew day starts and ends at sunset, so the holiday starts at sunset the day before.

--Passover, Wikipedia

18

Changing the Date of the Memorial?

by KalebOutWest in

i noticed in the latest memorial invitation, the dates for the observance are odd--well far more odd than usual.. what i mean is that forever as i can remember, jehovah's witnesses use to advertise really big that this was nisan 14. they don't tend to do this anymore.. and being jewish, their dates now tend to align with passover, or at least with the second seder night of passover.. 2025: saturday, april 12 (nisan 15).

2026: thursday, april 2 (nisan 15/16).

2027: monday, march 22 (nisan 15/16).

KalebOutWest

You are correct, Anony Mous.

I generally don't say things like "Metonic" or "lunisolar" as by the time I go there I've confused people enough with why Adar II has all the days that Adar I should have but Adar I does not (and shouldn't we call that Adar II instead? I personally think so.)

My original question was why are future dates for the Memorial now on Nisan 16? I want to know what they are doing. Hmmm...

I get the big mistake from last year. I mean, even my Christian friends--Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant--and atheists, nones, etc., knew that Passover was a month later. How did the JWs forget the leap year? How did they do the Memorial on the wrong day so badly? It shows how much they don't really know.

How are they determining the date now? And why are they suddenly landing on the later date? It's weird. They are observing the Memorial on "Second Seder" night. Huh?

But then again, when are they ever NOT weird, am I right? There would be no conversations here if they were normal.

18

Changing the Date of the Memorial?

by KalebOutWest in

i noticed in the latest memorial invitation, the dates for the observance are odd--well far more odd than usual.. what i mean is that forever as i can remember, jehovah's witnesses use to advertise really big that this was nisan 14. they don't tend to do this anymore.. and being jewish, their dates now tend to align with passover, or at least with the second seder night of passover.. 2025: saturday, april 12 (nisan 15).

2026: thursday, april 2 (nisan 15/16).

2027: monday, march 22 (nisan 15/16).

KalebOutWest

Nisan 1 starts when the new moon nearest the spring equinox becomes visible at sunset in Jerusalem. Counting 14 days from that event, is always Nisan 14.

To illustrate how the above is false due to Jewish leap years:

Last year was a Jewish leap year, wherein we had to add an additional month at end of the year. The extra month is called Adar I, Adar Rishon, or Adar Aleph. And then the regular month of Adar is called Adar II, Adar Sheni, or Adar Bet (I know, it's confusing).

This places everything around 29/30 days later.

So if we use Duran's calculation, what happens?

In 2024, the new moon that was closest to the spring equinox in Jerusalem was on March 10 at 9:02 AM. The spring equinox was on March 20 at 3:08 AM.

To determine the beginning of Nisan 1 in Jerusalem, add two hours and twenty-one minutes to the time of the new moon on March 10. This would make the beginning of Nisan 1 at 11:23 AM on March 10 and Nisan 14 on March 24.

That was also the date when Jehovah's Witnesses observed the Memorial.

But, alas, last year was a leap year on the Jewish calendar. You have to have leap years because it is a lunar calendar--otherwise it goes out of whack. It has always been that way.

That calculation was wrong.

Last year, Nisan 14 landed on April 21, 2024. Why do I know? Because Passover started on Monday, April 22. That was Nisan 15 of last year.

It was a leap year.

Both the Jehovah's Witnesses and Duran were wrong. They did not follow the way the Sanhedrin or the modern or the ancient Jews did it.

They forget the Jewish leap year.

Thus you have to use the Jewish calendar system and pay attention to when a leap year goes in and when it does not. It does not rely on the Spring Equinox or when anything is "visible in the sky."

18

Changing the Date of the Memorial?

by KalebOutWest in

i noticed in the latest memorial invitation, the dates for the observance are odd--well far more odd than usual.. what i mean is that forever as i can remember, jehovah's witnesses use to advertise really big that this was nisan 14. they don't tend to do this anymore.. and being jewish, their dates now tend to align with passover, or at least with the second seder night of passover.. 2025: saturday, april 12 (nisan 15).

2026: thursday, april 2 (nisan 15/16).

2027: monday, march 22 (nisan 15/16).

KalebOutWest

We still count, just as we always have, each month, from new moon to new moon.

Nisan 1 starts not with a visible event because the Great Sanhedrin is no longer in existence to validate it. It is calculated astronomically, as decided by the rabbinical patriarchate of the Great Sanhedrin.

Prior to the fall of the Temple and the later Bar Kokhba Revolt, the Great Sanhedrin was moved from Jerusalem to Yavne and then to Tiberias.

Because of this the Great Sanhedrin couldn't declare for the Diaspora when months officially began.

It was before the Great Sanhedrin dissolved that Hillel II, around the year 358 CE, created the current Jewish calendar. Hillel II introduced fixed standardizations that aligned via astronomical calculations, preserving the Jewish lunar year. He also introduced improvements allowing the addition of leap months to keep the calendar aligned with the solar year as well as allow for an automatic determination of exactly when the new moon appeared over Jerusalem, good or bad weather, something impossible before. (You had to do visible determinations prior to this, weather permitting.) You could also go backwards in time to precise dates in history using the Jewish calendar and Jewish dates, unlike before, as well as into the future.

This invention proved to be timely as the Great Sanhedrin was disbanded in 425 CE.

Counting 14 days from from Nisan 1 is always Nisan 14, that is correct. Again, it is not a visible system.

You cannot rely on the Spring Equinox due to leap years.

18

Changing the Date of the Memorial?

by KalebOutWest in

i noticed in the latest memorial invitation, the dates for the observance are odd--well far more odd than usual.. what i mean is that forever as i can remember, jehovah's witnesses use to advertise really big that this was nisan 14. they don't tend to do this anymore.. and being jewish, their dates now tend to align with passover, or at least with the second seder night of passover.. 2025: saturday, april 12 (nisan 15).

2026: thursday, april 2 (nisan 15/16).

2027: monday, march 22 (nisan 15/16).

KalebOutWest

The Lord’s Evening Meal

Song 87

Jehovah, our Father in heaven,

O this is a most sacred night!

’Twas Nisan fourteen when your glory was seen,

Your justice, love, wisdom, and might.

The Passover lamb was then eaten,

And Israel’s twelve tribes went forth free.

Cent’ries later our Lord his own lifeblood outpoured

To fulfill this divine prophecy.

(From the old brown song book, I think)

KalebOutWest

Posts by KalebOutWest

The Lord’s Evening Meal