Posts by KalebOutWest

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

KalebOutWest

Journeyman,

Let me begin by saying something which I rarely do. I personally believe that God listens to prayer.

However, Judaism is not a religion. We are a tribe, a community. We thus have a spectrum of beliefs. Asking "what do Jews believe" is like asking "what do Italians believe." You are born Italian as you are born Jewish. Just like there is Italian food, there is Jewish food. It's not specifically a religion. There are religious groups within, but the ideas vary. Get it?

Think of it this way. Is there JW food? No. It's a religion. There's Jewish food because we're a culture, a civilization.

Mr Peacefulpete likes to quote things from various Jewish sources as if they are representing my people, but it's a butcher job. Like Americans have a spectrum of beliefs, so do Jews. I can't help much either because I keep using words like "liturgy" and "spectrum" and you folks aren't much experienced with what I am saying. You keep giving me Jesus, someone from an Imperialist system, not from my world. You don't know the vast difference.

Jesus comes from Rome, not just the Catholic Church. The Jesus from the Gospels is not a Jewish work but an Imperialist one, a representation of the official state religion of a once great empire. That Jesus is no longer the one that walked or sounds like the rabbi who came from Judea. The Jesus from the Gospels is a God.

That aside: some of Jesus' prayers can still be found among the wording and do indeed seem to come from Judaism. There are schools of thought that resemble Hillel, for example.

The Golden Rule, for instance, seems to be a quote from Hillel: "What you do not wish to do be done to you, do not to do others." Jesus merely said it in the positive (or his disciples reworked and ascribed it to Jesus).

The "Our Father" of Matther 6 comes from bits and pieces of the Jewish liturgy. Hallowed be thy name from the Kaddish prayer where Jews pray "qadosh, qadosh, qadosh" or "holy, holy, holy" in reference to God’s name, meaning "May his great name grow exalted and glorified," as some have rewritten the prayer over the centuries.

I can go on, but there is a perfectly good resource out there. The Jewish Annotated New Testament, Second Edition.

Now...I do not, like Peacefulpete says, imagine that the Old Testament prayers were some "psychological tools for self help." They meant what they said, in the genre that they were composed, but words mean what they mean. People in the past believed that they talked to deities, not merely worshiped them.

He got that very wrong indeed.

Peacefulpete doesn't understand what I mean or comprehend where I come from. He thinks he does. And that is the problem--believing you know something and teaching others about the subject when you don't.

Offering to help others with abilities you do not possess is like offering to feed the hungry from empty pots.

I really hate that the Watchtower taught so many people to debate in a cut-and-paste way from blurbs found from "sources." It’s horrible. The correct way is to build an argument and to demonstrate the way it works, not by quotes from others, but merely a demonstration that your logic is sound within itself.

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

KalebOutWest

Two thousand years ago, Antogonos of Socho taught: “Do not be like a slave who placates his master simply to receive a reward.” What then might prayer be?

A medieval rabbi, Leon Modena, expressed the truth of prayer as follows: Imagine a man in a boat who is pulling himself to shore. If one did not know better, it could appear that he is pulling the shore to himself. But indeed, it is the one in the boat who is being moved, because the shore is fixed. So it is, he said, with prayer. We think that when we pray we are moving God closer to our will. But true prayer does quite the opposite: It moves us closer to God’s will.

If we rise from our prayer as better human beings than the ones who sat down, our prayers have been answered.

Does God answer prayer? Although I too have heard stories of miraculous recoveries and remarkable coincidences in people’s lives, stories of salvation that credit God’s power, I do not believe God supernaturally intervenes in the world in response to prayer. Although my heart yearns for such a God–and at times, I confess, my soul prays in such hopes–my experience in this often pain-wracked world belies the yearning of my heart.

But to say that God does not remove tumors is not to declare God irrelevant. For we can invoke the strength, guidance, and love of God in our prayers. Calling out to God, we elevate ourselves; seeking God through prayer, we can change our lives.

--Rabbi David Wolpe, Temple Sinai, Los Angeles, CA

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

KalebOutWest

Peacefulpete:

Another interesting parallel is the Jesuine line...

Interestingly, the Jesuine caution seems to parallel the intentionality if the Mishna.

I think we might have to thank the Watchtower for a little confusion going on here.

“Ask and ye shall receive.”--Luke 11:9.

"You cannot ask God for a parking spot."--My rabbi.

If you ask any of Jehovah's Witnesses or exJWs to draw a straight line between the two of these, using reason, to make the two meet, they likely could not do so.

When I wrote that many Jews do not think that God listens to prayer, this might sound odd to the mind of a JW or a former JW. I tend to forget who I am talking to.

I did not write that "God does not wish to listen to" or "God cannot" or "God will not" or "God is incapable" or anything along those lines.

When I wrote what I did about why and how Jews prayed, I tried very careful to remind readers that the English word for prayer did not necessarily mean "worship" or "ask." It could include these terms, but only when these specifically addressed these subjects within Jewish t'filah. We are only using the word "prayer," because that is the English word, and we are speaking English here.

There is a lot to be desired that will escape the mind for Jehovah's Witnesses and exJWs when the subject of Jewish prayer comes up--even Catholic and Protestant prayer--because it is what is known as liturgical prayer.

Liturgy is something so foreign to the experience of Jehovah's Witnesses that you might us well just die now and be reborn as Buddhist monks who undergo gender reassignment and then became figure skaters for a living who sell hotdogs on street corner during the off-season. Sounds very weird, but that is how different "liturgy" is to the Jehovah's Witness religious experience.

And yet "liturgical prayer" is so central to Judaism and Christianity, especially first-century Christianity. The liturgy was totally wiped away from the Second Great Awakening as "evil" due to its connection with the Catholic Church, even though its connection goes back to the Jewish Temple.

The Liturgy is an order, simply put, set to the hours of the day, when the Great Sacrifices would occur upon the Altar, namely Morning, Noon, and Night. The Great Thanksgiving would occur at each, and in fact, the Greek word for this expression is "Eucharist," which is what the prayer for the "Offering of Thanksgiving" for the Bread and Wine during Mass is called. This prayer comes from the Jewish Siddur, the HaMotzi: "Blessed are you, Lord our God, Sovereign of the Universe, who brings forth bread from the earth."

When the Talmud is describing the recitation of the Shema, it is talking about learning from what you are saying. This is similar to catechesis in Catholic liturgical prayer, such as what occurs when the Apostles' Creed is prayed. Both "prayers" are central to belief within the Liturgy in the services of either faith and yet neither are actually prayers.

The Shema is:

Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.

And the Creed is:

I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

Neither is a "prayer" in the "Watchtower" sense of the word. But they are in the Catholic and Jewish sense. In fact, they are the most important of prayers to these services. While saying the Shema, Jews cover their eyes so they can pay attention to the words (which they say in Hebrew) and pay attention to the words. In Catholicism, they stand erect and face the central crucifix over the altar and say the words in unison.

The verse from Matthew 6:7, the so-called "Jesuine line" is actually a request to not pray as "the pagans" or "Gentiles." How? Jesus described it as "repetitive" or "babbling." Academics and scholars point to the lists of divine names of deities from different languages transliterated to resemble other tongues to help those who did not speak the native tongue of the deity to hopefully get the pronunciation "just right." It was the hope that by uttering of the many "names" on the list, a petitioner would get at least one of the pronunciations right and somehow get their petition heard. Jesus said such babbling or repetitions were not needed.

This is similar to the Jewish and Catholic form of prayer today. God is "omnipresent" or merely "is." God doesn't "listen." The prayers of people do not float off into the air or space. These words of "creeds" or the Shema actually instruct the listener. They do not teach God what to believe. That is ridiculous.

One does not need to utter a divine name, as if they exact use or pronunciation of a name is needed before God would "wake up" and respond. God does not respond to name or come calling like a pet dog or a genie in a bottle. (This is what Mishnah B 4.4 was getting at.) God doesn't respond to the clap of hands or dances for coin. God doesn't "have" to "listen."

The prayers of Jehovah's Witnesses are based on a different view, namely on a deity that hears and responds, that comes when asked, and the only pays attention if the right name is used, pays attention only to special people, and that gives out party favors, like the Wizard of Oz and the end of the original MGM movie. It's "trick or treat" with Jehovah of the Watchtower.

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

KalebOutWest

Journeyman,

While you may not have realized this, you have actually mixed three different types of prayer and offered them as an example as if there were all the same. This is common for those who come from a Watchtower background.

Jews, remember, had their religion and culture first, and then the Bible afterwards. This means the worship, rituals and prayers came first and these influenced what you find in the Scriptures, not the other way around. These prayers and rituals are called "liturgy," a formal structure of worship that Jehovah's Witnesses don't have, but other religions do, even other Christians like Catholics, Orthodox Christians, even Protestants like Lutherans and Episopalians and Anglicans.

The prayers of Jews are litrugical. The prayers in the Hebrew Bible are narratives.

Then you added the prayers of Jesus. These have nothing to do with Judaism. The instructions of Jesus fly in a total different direction of Jewish prayer at times, and sometimes contradict within themselves. There is some evidence to suggest that some of the instruction on prayer of Jesus comes directly from the Nazareth rabbi, but some of it might come from his followers. I will not cover that here, but the best thing to note is that you cannot mix Jewish with Christian and expect that they are the same thing. They are not.

Jewish views on prayer has changed over time as Judaism is not a static religion like Christianity. We are not based on the views of a central authority. Christianity cannot move away from its views due to it being based on the teachings of Jesus. Judaism is actually a civilization with a religion in it. The religious views are on a spectrum and evolve over time as the community grows and faces new challenges.

The Scriptures explain the views on God during various eras including the eras of Moses, the Judges, and the Prophets. The comprehension of God changes during each of these eras from an entity that creates to one that demands sacrifice and fights war to one that has no desire for the blood spilled on altars and wants all people from all nations to pray to Him. God is merely another "character" in the narratives of Scripture in order for people to relate to stories and learn their lessons. The prayers offered are no more genuine than the miracles.

Is God real? What is God? Is there a personal God? Does God require worship? Does God listen to prayer? What is the real purpose of prayer? Is prayer even necessary? Are there other ways to "pray"? This is what and how Israel worships today. The very word "Israel" means to "wrestle with God."

Judaism is not filled with answers like the Watchtower religion advertises. It is a means to ask questions, a healthy means to ask. You have to find your own and live with the answers you find. That is what Judaism teaches.

Christians like definitive answers. Jews do not offer those.

The search is part of the journey. The journey is part of what it means to be Jewish.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

KalebOutWest

Pete,

I don't know what you want.

These are not my personal thoughts or views. They come from every book I've every taught from.

Alexander the Great didn't live long, Antiochus IV Epiphanes didn't succeed in snuffing out the practice of Judaism, and the Hasmonean dynasty lasted 100 years after the first Chanukah. In fact, the Hasmoneans persecuted Jews who did not accept their form of right-wing Judaism. They even murdered those Jews that did not agree with them.

That same group that the Hasmoneans were systematically killing rose up when the Herodian family took control under Roman rule. You likely heard of them--the Pharisees.

So, no, there was not 300 years of Hellenistic control or thought in Judaism.

You make up things, Pete. That is why people argue with you. I don't care to.

You're not an academic. You can't read other languages. You make up theories. And you enjoy the fantastic fantasies you create, arguing with people who don't agree with you, talking it personal.

Nobody can win with you, Pete. To you, it's just you and your views.

I don't even believe in Jesus.

27

Do children still get destroyed at Armageddon?

by Anony Mous in

i know back in the day, that was taught, that if the parents were going to be destroyed, so would the children.

i just can't easily find reference to anything.

this thinking has been used to justify some egregious behavior towards children and their parents such as exclusion of children from jw family - why worry, the end is near, all will work itself out then - the end didn't come though.

KalebOutWest

My weekly neighborhood congregation bookstudy conductor...

I remember him literally smiling during the book study and saying: "Jehovah has to kill the children too because they will grow up one day and rebel, being angry at Jehovah for killing their parents at Armageddon. So that is why God has to kill them when the day comes. It is only makes sense. That is what a just God would do."

He would sit and point at those pictures of destruction of people dying and falling into cracks, asking us what lessons we learned from the images of humans losing their lives at the hand of Jehovah.

This is the same one who used to tell me I wasn't Jewish when I was growing up after I had to live with my aunt and would tell me things like "you Jews are Jesus-murderers" and that the Holocaust was Jehovah's punishment to insult the Jews, etc., etc.

The man used to sit across from me during our weekly one-on-one Bible studies and show me pictures of Jerusalem and tell me about the unrest in the city and say: "This is what your people deserve for rejecting Jesus as the Messiah."

The man had some serious problems with bloodlust.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

KalebOutWest

Since the Hellenistic period was so short lived in Judaism, Philo's work had no influence, at least for Judaism itself. He did, however, influence Christianity, but not until the Church Father's discovered his work.

We are not sure if John is discussing Philo, but we are certain that the Church Fathers do when settling the Trinitatian doctrine issue.

Philo lived between 20 BCE to 40 CE and he was likely using terms based on Judaism to try to influence Jews, but it did not work. If he had been born during the Jewish Enlightenment, that would have different.

The Jewish Enlightenment, also known as the Haskalah, was an intellectual movement that took place in Central and Eastern Europe from the 1770s to the 1880s.The Haskalah was inspired by the European Enlightenment, but had a Jewish character. Some of Philo's works even came to the fore among Jews during this time, being rediscovered, along with Spinoza's.

Again, that would have been much different if Philo were born and trying to advance his ideas then.

408

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

KalebOutWest

Peacefulpete wrote:

In Jewish Hellenism that included the concept of Satan. What was initially thought of as a servant of God, the accuser, in the heavenly court, morphed into a figure of rebellion. The chief archon was held to be such a figure in Gnostic circles and the ideas converged.

Judaism had a very brief Hellenistic period (roughly 323-30 BCE) that was introduced mainly by the invasion of the culture via Alexander the Great’s invasion, but mostly through the influence after his death. It was short lived, dying out due to the failure of the Seleucid attempt to wipe out Judaism by the Hasmoneans via the Maccabean Revolt.

During the Hellenistic period, Jewish society encountered Greek philosophy and mythology, which includes ideas about demons and cosmic struggles between good and evil. The character of ha Satan or “the Satan” in the book of Job was ideally settled during this time, some suggest, but the concept of Satan in Judaism differs significantly from the Christian depiction.

Judaism defines Satan primarily as an agent of God, a tester of faith, or a personification of the "evil inclination" within humans. In Judaism, “Satan” can be a person or even God himself, and thus Jews don’t typically portray Satan as an independent, all-powerful force of evil opposed to God.

Christianity depicts Satan as a fallen angel, a rebellious creature who seeks to oppose God and tempt humans into sin. Satan the Devil is considered an enemy of both God and man, a powerful, malevolent entity with significant autonomy. This is very different from the ha Satan of Hellenistic Jewry.

It should also be noted that Satan the Devil is not considered an “archon” by mainstream or nominal Christianity. It is even heresy in Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity to use that term for Satan.

This term originates from the Gnostics and their set of beliefs that the Church Fathers consider anathema. In Gnosticism, archons are considered malevolent, lesser deities that rule over the material world and hinder spiritual enlightenment. Catholics believe Satan is a fallen angel, a creature created by God who rebelled and was cast out of Heaven. He is seen as the source of evil and temptation, but ultimately subordinate to God. While Satan might have influence, the Devil is not a deity or ruler.

18

Changing the Date of the Memorial?

by KalebOutWest in

i noticed in the latest memorial invitation, the dates for the observance are odd--well far more odd than usual.. what i mean is that forever as i can remember, jehovah's witnesses use to advertise really big that this was nisan 14. they don't tend to do this anymore.. and being jewish, their dates now tend to align with passover, or at least with the second seder night of passover.. 2025: saturday, april 12 (nisan 15).

2026: thursday, april 2 (nisan 15/16).

2027: monday, march 22 (nisan 15/16).

KalebOutWest

Duran,

Jewish days begin at sunset.

At sunset on April 12, Nisan 14 changes to Nisan 15.

Pesach starts on the 15th day of the Hebrew month of Nisan, which is considered the first month of the Hebrew year. The Rabbinical Jewish calendar is adjusted to align with the solar calendar in such a way that 15 Nisan always coincides with Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday, or Saturday. The Hebrew day starts and ends at sunset, so the holiday starts at sunset the day before.

--Passover, Wikipedia

18

Changing the Date of the Memorial?

by KalebOutWest in

i noticed in the latest memorial invitation, the dates for the observance are odd--well far more odd than usual.. what i mean is that forever as i can remember, jehovah's witnesses use to advertise really big that this was nisan 14. they don't tend to do this anymore.. and being jewish, their dates now tend to align with passover, or at least with the second seder night of passover.. 2025: saturday, april 12 (nisan 15).

2026: thursday, april 2 (nisan 15/16).

2027: monday, march 22 (nisan 15/16).

KalebOutWest

You are correct, Anony Mous.

I generally don't say things like "Metonic" or "lunisolar" as by the time I go there I've confused people enough with why Adar II has all the days that Adar I should have but Adar I does not (and shouldn't we call that Adar II instead? I personally think so.)

My original question was why are future dates for the Memorial now on Nisan 16? I want to know what they are doing. Hmmm...

I get the big mistake from last year. I mean, even my Christian friends--Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant--and atheists, nones, etc., knew that Passover was a month later. How did the JWs forget the leap year? How did they do the Memorial on the wrong day so badly? It shows how much they don't really know.

How are they determining the date now? And why are they suddenly landing on the later date? It's weird. They are observing the Memorial on "Second Seder" night. Huh?

But then again, when are they ever NOT weird, am I right? There would be no conversations here if they were normal.