there have been many posts on this board about people suing the society over disfellowshipping.
there have probably been as many showing how the society endeavors at every opportunity to push the legal responsibility for disfellowshipping down to the local congregation level, and to the elders who are actually involved.
it seems to me that there is a fly in the ointment for them in this area.
I have another question to add to this mix.
I have pondered the two questions in the above and since I was baptised at the age of 17 at the time when the baptism talk etc. stressed that one was NOT joining a religion but only dedicating ones life to Jehovah. Would the use of all these technicalities at one time be of use in court?
Is there anyone here with a legal degree or source to legal advice that can answer this?
i have a son who was disfellowshipped while suffering serious depression and who was not actively "sinning".. i feel this is outrageous and want to know how widespread the practice is.
please tell me what your experiences are, i am interested and want to try to get the brothers to factor this in, so we can stop losing people to depression.
I sure feel for all of you who have posted your situation in such an honest form. Being depressed to the clinical stage is a very strong mental disorder and not one to be treated lightly. It is a genuine disorder and not an indication of weakness or any of the other silly phrases ued to discredit a person. In my case I sought medical and cognitive therapy. It helped a little in a very short time, but getting out of the depression took some time. I was told that it took some time to get this way and it would also take time to get over it.
I would like to offer encouragement to those with this struggle. Medicaton is a must. Several types may be tried to find one that fits you. Some people have found that St Johns Wart, an herb to be helpful in this situation. But I think a psychiatrist or md.is advisable. This will bring the quick fix to enable you to work on the problem. For me making some unquestionable rules was helpful. Such as suicide is just not an option. Ignoring the unhelpful people and their nonsense. Learn to respect myself and to put MYSELF FIRST in many ways. Without demeaning others. If I don't take care of myself how can I be of help to others? If I am dead how can I be of help to my children. I am a good person and I deserve respect and love from others and MYSELF. I will accept others compliments without such a reply as "ah it's nothing" Accept it and acknowledge with a thank you.
All of these kinds of conduct are discouraged by the teachings of the wbts either outright or in more subtle ways. So they will feel foreign and self agrandizing to us at first. When in fact they are the normal.
All of this can be taught to us, but WE have to do the work. It is not easy but it is not that hard either.
The main thing I want to express is that all is not lost-never- that things can and will get better. A pleasant and contented life can be had. It is all do able and will work. Many have been there before you and succeded. They were not any more capeable than you. Just do the work.
as part of the sign of his presence, jesus said: "furthermore, brother will deliver brother over to death, and a father a child, and children will rise up against their parents and have them put to death.
until recently it was difficult to imagine how such a scenario might play itself out in fulfillment of christ's prophecy.
but, with the ongoing apostasy now accelerating, and the world's financial system rapidly crumbling, and rumors of war a part of daily life, it is becoming increasingly apparent that the stage is being set for jesus' words to become a horrifying reality.
Can anyone explain how this arrogant-twisted-asxxxle gets so many replies to his posts?
All I see here is this goofus with his nonsense taking up peoples time and energy for which I can see no good cause.
i just don't get why all of you are so upset with the watchtower bible and tract society.
now, they did make few mistakes, even though they are god's channel of communication.
well, stuff happens.
Hey I am with you brother Lark.
The wbts must be truly perfect or you wouldn't have so many people that love you and the org and agree with you.
When I had problems the org stepped right up and helped me.
Hey guys can I get out of this straight jacket now? I promise to not hurt anyone again?
i have been posting on this forum for a year now.
"only" 2000" were registered when i came here back in july 2001 after lurking for a few months.
i was using another name at that time.
Hello B-G. I have not been here all that long. But the time did fly. Reading your bits of history and that of others and finding it not too different from my own has been the helpful thing I find here. Well one of the helpful things.
Glad to hear that you are experiencing some contentment in life. That is I think, the goal we all strive for.
Life when normal or close to it is still difficult and one does not need the crazyness of the wbts added to the mix of our lives.
Here is to many more years of happiness and contentment for you and yours.
i have noticed that many people that grew up as a jw have a very difficult time leaving the org.
the obvious reason is the fact that they are going to be rejected by their entire social circle and family.
but on a personal level i have noticed the culture of the average dub tends to keep them shackled also.. for instance the meeting arrangement; the multitude of meetings seemingly effect witnesses in three ways:.
I agree at least somewhat to all that is posted above. I have often pondered the question "was there an intentional effort to develope this cult control situation"? Was there an evil intent? If so, where did it originate? There seems to be a stronger hold on the members if they were born into a family already firmly in this religeon. Ones mind becomes structured in a way That quickly rejects any negative comment about wbts without a moments consideration. This is true even if the negative comment comes out of ones own mouth. I think it started with Russell and his abuse of power and desire for control. But even at that point he seemed pretty benign compared to Rutherford. Then Rutherford, the alcoholic-bombastic-overbearing-arrogant person he was took over and control of others became his and thus the societies prime motivation. The articles written by Rutherford regarding medicine and other subjects reveal him to be an uneducated fool spouting the most ridiculous nonsense. Mix all these atributes or delusions coming from a man that appears to have had some serious mental problems and we create the wbts we see today. The lust for power and control still seems to be the motivation. We see this lust being demonstrated in the most horrible ways with demands from wbts that ruins lives, causes needless deaths, destroys families and marriages, creates a pedophile paradise, punishes and demeans the victims. All the while using the bible and claiming to be Gods only true religion to to support and defend their actions.
There is in my mind one question left. Where did the evil intent come from. Was it completly from the sick mind of Rutherford and those that succeeded him? Or did it come from that evil realm that the wbts is always pointing to as the source of all evil in the world.
i have a son who was disfellowshipped while suffering serious depression and who was not actively "sinning".. i feel this is outrageous and want to know how widespread the practice is.
please tell me what your experiences are, i am interested and want to try to get the brothers to factor this in, so we can stop losing people to depression.
It seems that a large number of people are in clinical depression at the time of df or da. I know in my case I had experienced a lot of problems, a suicidal wife, due in part to childhood molestation and incest, finding out that a daughter was molested by an elder a few years earlier and a 17 yr old son who decided alcohol and drug abuse and fighting with the police was to be his life. All of this in about a 2 yr period. This along with my wish to get out of the borg and trying to run a business and I found myself in clinical depression.
It was at this time that the elders wanted me out and my now ex wife decided this was a good time to get a divorce and keep the elders approval. keep the borg in her life and get rid of me.
It seems to me that this is a pattern that when one finally has enough they are emotionaly worn out and the vultures take this as the time to kick one when they are down.
Being born into a jw family, the final decision that one has been deceived their whole life and the dysfunctional family and dysfunctional friendships all collapse.
I believe that most if not all jw families are highly dysfunctional and ill prepared to deal with the challenges of life.
When one is severly depressed the only strong emotion still intact is usually anger. An angry & depressed person that elders or others want to abuse is a very dangerous person. I am surprised there are not more physical attacks or killings in these situations. I would not be surprised to see some of this as this current situation with the jw's causes more and more to walk away.
remember when we were kid's at school, how we used to love to make up book titles with fictitious authors to match?.
this sort of thing:.
"the dangerous cliff" by eileen dover.. "the un-answered telephone" by isabelle ringing.. "bare-back horse riding" by major bumsaw.. the fad faded for a while only to surface in a re-generated form for "the simpsons".
Hole in the matress - by Mister Completly
Miles & miles of little brown piles - by Squat and Leavit
Edited by - outoftheorg on 1 August 2002 19:45:1
(not, ray franz owes us an apology) .
(ok lets add this on)do those who are or were governing body members have a greater amount of responsability than witnesses in general?at what point do we stop being victims and become instigaters?
this may have been discussed before but i'm not sure.so sorry if it has.
Well Sleepy and others this is a question I have pondered. I as an elder for 5 yrs tried to be understanding and not dogmatic. However I did promote the wbts teachings. From that aspect I and all others carry some responsibility and for myself a measure of guilt.
I have read where others consider it a situation of followers of followers and victims of victims all struggling under a cults influence. My largest guilt and shame comes from seeing now what effect all of this had on my children. Some are out of the borg and some still in it. I see the damage to all of them from their exposure to wbts.
I think Ray Franz has done a lot to expose the wbts for what it is and to direct people to an acceptable practice of religion on an individual basis. I agree that he does also feel some guilt and sadness at his part in all this.
For those like Ray and others that have pointed out what needed to be exposed and no longer promote the cult and are willing to help those just leaving the borg, I believe we should not hold onto any bad feelings for them or give them any more grief over their past association with the wbts.
I do believe that Ray and the others who grew up in the borg or got sucked into it later in life are also victims suffering from their exposure to the cult.
I believe that those who vigorously and arrogantly promote and defend the wbts in its present actions are the ones on which we should focus our energies and anger.
the plain fact of the matter is this: if you are standing for "right," then you are never alone!
yes, if the `blind lead the blind,' then "both" will fall into the pit.
" do you see anything wrong with that???
Well GRITS--Talk about food for thought. This post deserves some attention. I wonder if that book is still in print? You know I kind of got away from looking at jw scriptural or biblical errors as they are not so easily seen or understood or accepted by ones I may talk to. Besides that they take an awful lot of mental energy to dig into them. At least for me it does. I guess I just got weary of the constant circular twisted way the wbts presented all these claims-demands-nonsense ideas and the effort needed to expose them. So I stick to the issues that are no brainers such as scream now if you are raped and next year scream not needed. Transplants a sin yesterday ok today and forget the people that died yesterday. The same with the blood issue and alternative service for military and etc.
But this book caught my interest so I guess I will be straining my brain to understand the conflicting thoughts and ideas.
Thanks a lot.
