just wanted to pass along a recent experience that has helped open my eyes about many things.
i wasn't going to share this with the db but with all of the crap going on around here lately i thought it might be nice to post something that i found to be uplifting.
a few of you that i exchange emails with already know that my leukemia came out of remission recently.
Hi Jon,
I'm amazed at your ability to have a sense of humor during this time. Seriously, I don't know if it's becuase I'm new or something, but I didn't know you were dealing with leukemia. I cherish your sister's decision to help you out with this and I hope everything goes well. E-mail me when you get the chance, I'd like to get to know you better.
anyone pick up the latest copy of newsweek?
on the cover is a bunch of mormomns and they stare at me as if to say bwahahahaha.. anyone read the article?
it looks in favor of mormons and ignores the many signs of it being a cult.
I read both articles in Newsweek about the Mormons. Here are some interesting points I got from them.
... next February, the world will come knocking on the doors of the Mormon Zion in Salt Lake City, host of the 2002 Winter Olympics. The city expects 1.5 million visitors altogether, including 9,000 journalists—plus the steady eyes of television cameras for two-and-a-half weeks. Some local commentators have already dubbed next year’s Games the “Mo-lympics” because the church and its puritan ethos so dominate the city Mormon pioneers created 150 years ago. (pg. 46)
Personally, I think they're overestimating the attention the Olympics will receive. It's been proven that viewership for the Olympics has been going down steadily for the past couple of years, and with good reason. WHY...you may ask? Well, let's see.....THE OLYMPICS ARE BOOORRRIIINNGGG!!!!! Personally, I can't see why I'd watch them anyway, although I'm a loyal watcher Men's Gymnastics whenever the Summer Olympics comes on television.
Not since the ancient Olympiads were held under the gaze of Zeus and his randy band of gods and goddesses have the Games been staged in a locale so thoroughly saturated by a single religion. Consider: Utah’s governor, two senators and three congressmen are Mormons. So are all the state’s Supreme Court justices and 80 percent of the state and federal judiciary, 90 percent of the state legislators and at least 85 percent of the mayors, county commissioners and local school officials. Business in Salt Lake is usually done the Mormon way or not at all. Anticipating unaccustomed scrutiny by international media, Gordon B. Hinckley, the church’s president and prophet, has promised not to exploit the Olympics to proselytize visitors. But Mormon leaders also regard the Games as a God-given opportunity to flash the many facets of their faith around the globe. “When it comes to doing stories about the history and culture of this place,” says Bruce Olson, director of the church’s 34-member Public Affairs Department, “that’s us.” (pg. 46)
*SHUDDER* Well, this proves it, the Mormons are taking over the fawking World, and there's nothing that you are I can can do about it! First Utah, then the World, Mwuah-hah-hah-hah (cue, mustache twirl). Gawd, it must super-suck living in Utah with the fawking Taliban (*OOPS!*), I mean, Mormons ruling everything. This comment says it all, they already have a monopoly on the state's history. They prefer to have a Theocracy in order so any competition from any outside religion is immediately squashed.
Mormons believe everyone is resurrected to one of three kingdoms based on their degrees of faithfulness.ILLUSTRATION
a.) Celestial Kingdom - Married couples make spirit children, progress toward godhood.
b.) Terrestial Kingdom - Honorable heathens and imperfect Mormons live here.
c.) Telestial Kingdom - Mundane afterlife for grave sinners.
(pg. 46)
C'mon do they actually think that every homosexual, materialist, and fun lovin' criminal will have a mundane afterlife. YEAH, right. Sounds more like this is where the 24-hour party-people will be. If that's what it's going to be like than I can't wait to get to the Tele, whatsa, or whatever the hell it's called. I'll even redecorate the place! It's like that Far side cartoon ("Welcome to HELL, here's your Accordion!") In a side note, apparently, in order to seek God's favor you have to get married and have as many kids as possible. I swear, if there's one thing that pisses me off about Mormonism more than anything else, it's the constant emphasis on Marriage and having kids. Now that's what I call a "mundane afterlife" (BTW, that's just me).
...the church now insists it be regarded as a Christian church, albeit one with doctrines about God, salvation and the priesthood that differ radically from traditional Christianity.(pg. 48)
So? The Heaven's Gate cult regarded themselves as Christian. I bet that convinced a lot of people. Wait a minute...I guess it did!
...with Olympic fever heating up, the church’s hierarchy recently advised the media that the term Mormon Church is no longer acceptable. Henceforth, officials declared, short references to the church should read: “The Church of Jesus Christ.” In this way the church hopes to emphasize what Mormons share with historic Christianity, not what makes them different.
Hey, because of the Olympics, the Mormon religion has decided that the name Mormon is no longer acceptable! This reminds me of a C.O. I had once who told the congregation not to refer to themselves as Jehovah's Witnesses at the door unless asked, rather, we were "Bible students" engaged in a "volunteer work". It didn't fool anybody, and it won't fool what little audience the Mormons will have for their Olympic telecast. Actually, I think Church of Jesus Christ is a bit too deceptive as well, why don't they call themselves The Church of Intolerance, Misogyny, and Homophobia. Now, that's more like it....
“After a century of cultivating their separate identity as a religious people, Mormons now want to stress their affinities with traditional Christianity yet highlight their uniqueness.” Or as President Hinckley declared to Mike Wallace in a 1996 interview on “60 Minutes,” “We are not weird.” (pg. 48)
Isn't that a contradiction?!? They're Christians, but their beliefs are different from Christianity. Hmmm...all I can say is they're going to have a hell of a time convincing people that they're "not weird".
By far the most successful of America’s homegrown religions, Mormonism today cannot be understood apart from its early-19th-century roots. Like other Yankees, founder Joseph Smith (1805-1844) was obsessed by the Bible and distressed by the competing claims of rival Christian denominations. Along with many other unchurched Americans he longed to recover the pure, “primitive” faith of Christ’s apostles. At the age of 14 Smith had a vision in which, he later said, God the Father and Jesus appeared to him as bodily beings, telling him that none of the existing churches were true. (pg. 49)
Actually, I think this is encouraging news for any fourteen-year-old who wants to start their own religion: "You too can deceive millions of people to believe whatever the hell you tell them!!!" Jeez, people were less skeptical back then. Hmmmm...I guess very little has changed.
Fantastical as it seemed to scoffers like Mark Twain, the Book of Mormon—in diction straight out of the King James Version of the Bible—answered many questions that troubled religious seekers. It proclaimed that America was indeed the promised land, to which Christ would someday return to establish his millennial kingdom on earth. (Smith later identified places near Independence, Mo., as the locations of the primordial Garden of Eden and of Christ’s eventual Second Coming.) It explained the origin of American Indians—then still a puzzle to many Yankees—as lost tribes of Israel. (pg. 49)
People actually believe this crap? Hey, guess what?!? The Garden of Eden was in the Midwest. Yeah, and the Bible was written in English, Jesus' second coming will be in Oklahoma, and the Tower of Babel was in South Dakota.
“They believed, as we do now, that plural marriage is one of the experiences you should have to become like God, who has more than one wife himself,” says Salt Lake City author Anne Wilde, a plural wife and one of some 30,000 rogue Mormons who still practice polygamy." (pg. 50)
Wouldn't life be better without religion? Seriously, think about it. Damn, now I can't get that John Lennon song out of my head. Seriously though, I wonder what Gloria Stienam thinks about Mormonism?
Today Mormons have the only church structured like a corporation...(pg. 50)
Not the only one...OUCH!
Today almost every member of the Salt Lake hierarchy is a successful, politically conservative businessman—and white. The males-only priesthood was opened to blacks in 1978, after a special revelation, but the appeal of Mormonism to people of color is mainly among the less well-off.(pg. 50).
Interesting how this picture of Mormonism contradicts the one on the cover of Newsweek.
Compared with this eternal agenda, the coming of the Olympics to Salt Lake City is a brief diversion. Still, the media spotlight will be searching and intense. Good hosts the Mormons will be—to the point of tolerating more alcoholic consumption than allowed in normal times (following story). The church wants to see Salt Lake profit from the Games; it doesn’t want the blame if their hometown’s huge investment fails. But instead of missionaries asking questions on the streets, there’ll be reporters wondering what lies behind the church’s many veils. It could be Mormonism’s moment of truth. (pg. 51)
Moment of truth? How can truth hold any place within Mormonism? Thank you thank you (applause) yo've been such a lovely audience, I'd love to take you home with me...
did anyone who received this wt ,notice that loyalty was only extended to the org, marriage mates and family 'who are believers' the rest of you moms and dads sisters and brothers,etc.
you're out in the cold.. the article is titled,'what does it mean to be loyal?'....
is this damage control?
Here are some points I got from the article:
"It [loyalty] is intervention on behalf of someone suffering misfortune or distress. It is demonstration of friendship...It includes the idea of loving attachment along with the taking of positive action so as to benefit others" - Pg. 20
I find this definiton of loyalty fascinating since it has made me reflect on so many people who are depressed in the congregation, and have nobody to talk to, and who have verbally made it known to the elders in the congregation that they were seriously thinking about committing suicide, that their kid was being molested by a brother, or they were watching re-runs of friends...and yet, the elders didn't lift their finger in order to help. It's happened to me. Yet, when I told the elders in my congregation that I was gay their interest in me peaked at no other time as my career as a JW. Yep, I love my sexual preference and feel no need to label myself--unless, of course, you count my "Home of the Whopper" underpants. (You think I'm joking. I'm not.) However! I don't call what the elders are doing helping someone when they're in distress. I've always found that friendships in the congregation were kinda screwy.... but, move on, it gets better.
"Jehovah also demonstrated loyalty toward mankind in general in that he provides the basic necessities of life for all men, righteous and unrighteous" - Pg. 21
(Italics theirs)
Since I've left the congregation, I still believe that God is the creator of all things, even the basic necessities of mankind, so I thought this was a valid point.
"If loving kindness is demonstrated toward you, then the same can be expected in return. Loyalty is repaid in kind" - Pg. 22
How can one express loyalty to an organization when the organization refuses to express such loyalty to the individual. Isn't that why there are several cases going to the courts involving elders shielding child molesters from the full extent of the law, in order to protect the organization over the individual? I'm serious, if you found out that your kid was being screwed by some guy in the congregation, you would want YOUR kid to karate-chop that creep right in the neck, crush his spine, and fly the sociopath to the nearest police station, hang him from a street lamp wrapped in webbing, and leave a note stapled to his goddam forehead that reads, "Crime doesn't fawking pay!" Besides, how can I remain loyal to a group of people whom I have never, nor do I plan to ever meet?
"For instance, if Jehovah's name is reproached, does your concern for its reputation motivate you to speak up in his defense? That is what happened to one relatively new Christian and his wife when they attened the funeral of a relative who had been killed in a motorcycle accident. It was a non religious service, and those in attendance were allowed to say something about the deceased. One speaker proceeded to blame God for this young man's untimely death by saying, 'God wanted him in heaven, so he took him.' Our Chrisitan brother found it impossible to to remain silent. He stepped up to the podium, even though he had neither Bible nor notes. 'Do you hink a merciful, compassionate, almighty God approves of situations like this?' he asked. He then proceeded with a ten-minute impromptu discourse with Scripture quotations explaining why we die, what God has done to rescue mankind from death, and the marvelous prospect of a resurrection to everlasting life on a parqadise earth. The more than 100 people broke out into extended applause" - Pg. 20
I think when a person is moved to do so, he or she should voice their beliefs about issues like life, death, God, etc... Even at a funeral becuase we want to grasp onto something that channels our hope to the future, and nobody wants to die. My time as a JW has given me the opportunity to attend several memorial services. Boring! Every single one of them was a discourse. I doubt every single elder who has given a talk at all the services I attened truly knew the people they spoke of in their talks. Every presentation was a talk that could have applied to anyone else that could have died: Lee Marvin, Ty Cobb, and Liberace included. When we ignore a person's humanity we truly have to wonder what led us to that point. So..let's say that a person will be resurrected...well, that's fine...but, something made that person live, and walk, and breathe....and now they're gone... and there's nothing you can do about it... and they deserve to have a proper funeral like everybody else, with a person who truly knew him or her, giving the funeral talk. No wonder so many Jehovahs's Witnesses have zilch emotion. They've grown up in an environment where they're told to put their emotions under the rug, so to speak. When my grandmother died two years ago the first person to call me up was the circuit overseer in my congregation, and he immediately to me to get over it and that "these things happen". It's almost like we're told not to mourn. It's sad.
"Loyalty to God also includes loyalty to the organization... unquestionably, Jehovah has stuck with his modern day organization. Can we not do likewise?" - Pg. 22
Let me ask a question, "Who is 'Jehovah's Organization' loyal to?" How is it loyal to God? By acting in ignorance of his teachings? By removing many people each year from the congregation for petty offenses? The Governing Body are just like the Pharisees of the 1st Century. They feel like they have a monopoly on Bible truth, and they've accumulated so much power they don't know how to handle it properly.
"In addition to being loyal to the organization, will we be loyal to one another?" - Pg. 23
This far into the study article and they've finally mentioned the importance of being loyal to one another.
"Remain loyal to believing friends and family. As the years pass, do not forgot them" - Pg. 23
...but as for your unbelieving friends and family, they don't matter? All I can say is I'm glad I've left. I have two good friends, and that makes all the difference...
BTW, thank you for letting me rant and rave, I have never posted this long before. I just had to get a lot of things off my chest before I went to bed tonight. Thank you for listening...and remember, push out the jive, bring in the love!
i thought this article from the september 2001 kingdom ministry was very interesting.. get out there and sell those books!!!.
is it an obstacle to preaching?.
most people lead busy lives.
I know that a lot of people in my congregation said that they felt happy preaching from house to house, doing business territory, and even incidental witnessing. I even enjoyed it for the period of time I spent in the organization. It's just unfortunate that the article gives two impressions, both of which are heavily biased: 1.) that the present state of the economy should not be a factor that prevents a person from having a "full share" in the field ministry and 2.) that a person's value is directly related to how much time he puts into it. There is not one single scripture in the Bible that says that all people are required to preach (Eph 4:11). From what a lot of people have told me, it's not something that comes natural to to them. The vast majority of hard-working Jehovah's Witnesses in the congregation have tough working schedules, more so than the Governing Body can fathom. It's articles like these that help me become more cognizant of the fact that the organization is a closed society that gets more closed minded on the way up.
i've been studying the bible with a jehovah's witness in my town, and i'm rather enjoying it.. but why do so many people hate the jw's.. i've researched on my own and have come to the conclusion that they are right on most accounts including the trinity, blood, nationalism... etc.... and the more arguments i hear against the more i'm drawn into believing what they stand for.. and every argument i've seen in support of the things jw's are against the more i think the jw's are right.. so why are they so bad?
Hi DF, I think the question is worded a bit deceptively becuase I think most Jehovah's Witnesses are good people who want to get the sense of what the Bible says and who want to do the right thing. It's such a diverse conglomorate of peoplle I think it would be wrong to stereotype Jehovah's Witnesses becuase everybody's different. I think you will like my opinion though, becuase i consider myself a fairly unbiased person. For a lot of people on this site, including me, I found being a Jehovah's Witness more of a burden than a joy. There is very little room to formulate an idea on what the Bible says on various susbjects if they run contrary to what the Organization says. I do agree that Jehovah's Witnesses are correct on numerous issues, including some that you have mentioned, but nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jehovah's Witnesses must refrain from Blood Transfusions (Acts 15), even the word "Transufsion" is not in the Bible. Likewise there is not a single scripture that says that all Jehovah's Witnesses must preach (Ephesians 4:11). Furthermore, for the longest time, Jehovah's Witnesses looked down on secular education until a couple of years ago. IMHO, this is not the sign of a progressive organization. It is also very difficult to make friends inside the congregation, just ask your Biblle study conductor if that's so. Even James said that the true religon is one that looked after orphans and widows in their tribulation. I am not telling you these things as propaganda. In fact, I would be much more comfortable if you put more weight on finding these things out for yourself. And one way to do that is to investigate both sides (pro and con). You might also want to ask study if it is okay for Witnesses investigate both the pro and con stances of Jehovah's Witnesses as well. I hoped I have helped you in some way.
i posted this onto a previous thread, but wanted to start it on a new one as well.
as jws, we lack the "social outlet" all humans need, to have true friends one can speak openly and honestly with and not be afraid of judgmentalism.
what i've seen firsthand is that the "nucleus" of the congregation often has this need filled: elders, ms's, pioneers, and their families often do things together.
Troubled, I think its fair to say that a lot of people understand where you're coming from. I've always viewed relationships in the congregation as being kinda screwy. In a way, I think the majority of people in the congregation want to do the right thing (they want to make God happy, obey the Bible, etc, etc, etc...) but living in such a closed organization, has prevented a lot of people from understanding how REAL friendships work. After all, the majority of people in the organization live a separatist life always behind a brick wall, (so to speak), separating themselves from society. In such a case, you can either do two things: break the wall down, or stay within the confines of the organization. In the congregation, you have to follow the letter of the law and put God above people, so a good brother or sister understandably wants to feel safe in such an organization where safety is measured by obeying everthing the Bible and Organization says. To feel safe many feel attracted to people who don't think for themselves, who have a strong family background in the organization, and who don't get into "trouble". Likewise, there are a lot of other values, which are valued within our society as the congregation as well: such as being great socially, good looking, fun to be around and cheerful as the Jehovah's Witnesses in the Watchtower and Awake (essentially the so-called ideal). I agree that I feel more comfortable with people who know how to talk, listen, have a great smile, but, it seems like it's hard for people in the congregation to break out of their mold and associate with people who don't fit the "ideal". Even I associate with people who don't fit the ideal. I can probably count the number of good friends I have on my right hand. Likewise, how many cheerful people will you really find in the congregation. To put it very bluntly, it hurts being one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and when I'm hurt, I'm not going to smile for anyone unless my profession requires it, and it doesn't. In the congregation, you can't cry when you feel sad, you can't voice your disagreements when you're moved to do so, you can't grieve when you truly want to. It's almost like a job, which, in a way, it is. While striving to be so professional, it seems so hard to be an emotional person. You live a life behind a psychological brick wall and behind a figurative brick wall. And that's wrong, it means, you can never be liked for who you are, or you can never be who you are, or you've part of a minority of people that feels 100% comfortable handing over their personality to whoever's in charge. I say, "no more brick walls", being a Jehovah's Witness is a burden that nobody should carry, especially if you have no friends. Jesus said that those who would come to him whould have no shortage of friends or mothers or brothers or sisters, so when people in the congregation don't have it you know something's wrong. I think its also fair to say that you're not the only one who feels this way in your congregation. There are many, many, MANY people in the congregation who feel neglected, unimportant, etc.... which is sad becuase many people have sacrificed their jobs, family and even their friends in order to find their niche in the organization. When I voiced my concerns to the elders I was always the one criticized for not having friends...I was too scar, intimidating. I was also probably the only person in my age group to associate with the elderly, the disabled, orphans.... Needless, to say, the elder didn't have a clue as to who was really reaching out to people. Troubled, you have talked before on the difficulty of making friends and to tell you the truth, you're too good of a person to feel this way, and God doesn't like seeing you upset while feeling like you're serving him. He wants you to be happy and make friends, so join a club, take a theater class, join a hiking club...everybody's looking for something, especially friendship, hope, love... and it should make you feel happy that you're not the only one. Just keep these four words in mind: THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX. You won't regret it.
recently at my local district convention it was stated by a speaker that he had met someone on the the ministry who had told him that fred ranz was one of the three best hebrew scholars in the world.. this didn't sound true to me for several reasons, but could anyone with knowledge of this suject shed some light on the matter?
Interestingly, the presiding overseer in my old congregation liked to say that "without question" F.W. Franz knew more about blood than any other person in the World and that many doctors and physicians would invite him to speak at Universities and such. Needless to say, I was skeptical. I'm sure the same goes for thousands of doctors and physicians as well. I just think it's another case of people in the congregation elevating members of the G.B. to Godlike status. I've even heard them described as "pilars" of Christian faith. So it's typical for many people to say that they're unique in the sense that they hold special knowledge...which is odd because they look down on critical thinking, not to mention going to a University, reading books by secular sources, etc, etc, etc....
joel, i want you to know i can think of no other poster who shows as much humanity, as much compassion and insight as you, particularly when it comes to the human condition.. thank you for sharing yourself and your journey so openly; i'm grateful for that.
you obviously have picked up many helpful tools in your recovery toolkit, and when you not only share them with us but show how to use them, how they can benefit us, we are the richer.. i need not say more, than that you are loved very much.. maximus.
who once in a while learns from joel a leeeetle more than he needed to, but what else is new?
Hi Joel, again, I'd like to offer you thanks for helping me with my various struggles as well. I really appreciate your insight into a lot of things, not just homosexuality. There's a lot you have offered me and a lot of other people on the boards that has been very useful. Thanx!
for me that is a hard question to answer.
it seems like when your in the borg it is always pounded in your head that you need to do more so they made you think you were never doing enough.. the last five years that i was in it i guess you could say i was pretty gung-ho, i regulare pionered for almost three years as well as served as a ms, i used my home for book study as well as saturday field service.. but you know what all that does not amount to a hill of beans, you know why?
because the whole time i was a doubter, i never liked it from the time i was a kid.
I WAS THE WORST!!!!!!!!
I virtually worshipped the elders in my congregation. I was super-conservative and would have stepped over my own mother to further their cause. I was also extremely zealous in the ministry and heartly obeyed the counsel and direction of a snotty MS who was in high school and about my age the time I started going to meetings. In other words, I never made any of my own decisions and did everythng that was told of me. I even went a step further by disowning all of my worldly friends and isolating my family (although, not intentionally) I criticized my worldly father for using foul language. JEEZ, I couldn't stand even myself looking back. I was also a team player who assisted in the Theocratic Ministry School. I would have only shown the slightest interest in you if I knew you could give a substitute talk in the congregation. Likewise, I tried to put up with my internalized homophobia to the best of my abilitly, and tried to keep my sexual orientation in the closet. At my highest point of spiritual activity I was THE most Asexual person you ever met, and the elders LOVED it. As long as I wasn't involved with girls or guys that was A-OK. I was doing their bidding anyway! If you were a brother and sister in my congregation you would have viewed me as very zealous and a person that truly loved God and was willing to help you out in any way. What you didn't know was that I was extremely depressed and often entertained thoughts about suicide. I hated myself and never beleived in anything I did. I also secretly mistrusted many people (think Tarvis Bickle from Taxi Driver). Interestingly, going to an acredited University was my wisest decision since it opened my easy to reality. Ironically, the elders in my congregation never complained about me going to a University. in fact, they were very supportive. The good thing about me was that the last two years of my career as a JW, I was 100% reluctant to administer counsel or tell you what to beleive in. I would have called you up just to see how you were doing and wanted to get to know you better. I liked you for who you were, not by how many meetings you were going to. Now, I spend my time with friends, do activist work for the Gay, lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender community and have received my B.S. in Computer Information Systems. I feel better about myself than ever before and have gotten the chance to be proud of my physique for once. Things really are much better, and contrary to what my picture indicates, I do not spend most of my time laying around in my underwear. Seriously...
i have to post tonight.
i'm feeling so alone.
stopped here at the library to post this, on my way to the book study.
Hi Troubled, I very soooooooo sorry that feel sad right now! I honestly think some counseling would do and your husband some good. Personally, I think I'm a pretty unbiased person and you would benefit yourself if you started looking at other avenues where you can build your support group. Alot of people on the boards will be quick to tell you that you need to take an immmediate stand and simply stop going to meetings. While such an option is considerable for some, I don't recommend it right now, since such an exit can be very disheartening and you need encouragement now more than anything. Many people on the boards have felt comfortable getting some degree of spiritual education (albeit deeply flawed) at the meetings while continuing to build a support group elsewhere. Personally, I think I was kind of lucky. I was able to distance myself well from the meetings while I was going to college where I was able to see a University counselor and build my support group. Now, don't get me wrong, my Mom was upset, but then again, she hasn't gone out in service for two years so her spiritual zeal wasn't as uppity as that of other family members. But seriously, start building up a support group in your area, see a counselor if possible.You're a very sweet person, and I want you to get some happiness. A good person like you shouldn't have to suffer by feeling shunned and isolated. I hope I have given you some good advice.
