Posts by proplog2

13

WTS visits Apostate Website! (continuation)

by Rado Vleugel in

jw
friends

wts visits apostate website!

(continuation).

(i move this discussion to the top of this board because its already been buried under the other posts.

proplog2

Daniel Haase:

I don't think they are trying to come up with counter arguments to those raised on these web-sites. They know that their positions on many of these things are completely indefensible. Have you seen even one rebuttal to the attacks made here against the Watchtower Blood Policy? If the Watchtower would engage in an open dialog (live debate with their best experts or question and answer forum like this one) most JW's would tear up their blood cards.

The Watchtower has become total chicken since the days when Russel engaged in pulbic debate and "Turned the hose on hell".

10

Chapter Two-Visions of Glory

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

chapter two of visions of glory is now up at:.

http://www.exjws.net/vg2.htm.

randy

proplog2

Too bad Ray Franz doesn't write a book especially for free publication on the internet. He could set up a method for people to give voluntary contributions for the service.

34

Effectiveness of Psychotherapy

by larc in

jw
friends

on a previous thread, the question of the effectiveness of psychanalysis came up.

since then, i have done some research.. a recent article* summarized the results of three literature surveys, and the author came up with the following conclusions:.

1. for major affective disorders, and major psychoses, psychpharmacological treatment works best.. 2. for symptomatic anxiety based disorders, such as phopias, generalized anxiety disorders, panic disorder, obsessive complulsive disorder, and post - traumatic stress disorder, cognitive and behavioral treatments work best.. 3. for personality disorders and complex comorbid disorders with an underlying personality disorder, long term relationship therapies work best.

proplog2

I think cognitive therapies are good as quick band-aids. Real growth requires you discover the constitutional underpinnings of your personality. You need to know what you want out of life and your preferred way of getting what you want. You need to know what you avoid in life and your preferred way of avoiding what you don't want.
You can never change this structure. You can only manage it - live around it.

21

1975 Made Easy.

by Englishman in

jw
friends

as i was one of those people who were around during the build-up to 1975, i thought that some of the newer converts might be interested to see how the society arrived at this date with such confidence.. firstly, we need to see how 1914 figures in this.

we need to appreciate, that although the date 1914 is arrived at retrospectively - that is it was assumed initially to be the date of armageddon, only later was it re-written as the date when satan was thrown out of heaven and jesus ascended to his throne.. the society tied this in with the scripture this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur, assumed that a generation was the average life-span of 70 years, tacked it onto 1914 to arrive at 1984 but also mentioned that some would live to 80 years owing to special strength, then mentioned that this generation would by no means pass away so that quite a wide time slot was available for armageddon to arrive.

this window of time then provided endless opportunities for jws to be kept in a permanent state of anticipation as various events unfolded.

proplog2

I talked to Karl Klein around 1980 and he described the situation at Bethel among the GB. They were razzing F.Franz early in 1975 about whether he still thought that was the year. Franz's response? "Just wait. It isn't October yet."

So the GB behavior was basically ridicule toward Franz. Had us lowly ones voiced such confrontational doubt we would have been DF.

I brought to Kleins attention that a lot of the rush marriages that took place anticipating 1975 were either going through divorce or unravelling. He noted that "well that's another problem we didn't think about".

20

SAD!

by 2SYN in

well this isn't just another "boohoo, i'm so depressed, bwaaa!

" thread...this is a more detailed investigation into the reason behind my sadness.

i felt like i could share it with the people on this board, as you lot in general seem to be far more emotionally sensitive than a lot of people on the internet.. i've been listening to ok computer by radiohead, and i must say, it's by far some of the most emotional music i've ever listened to.

proplog2

The Watchtower taught me to cry. A lot!

8

What JW's are thinking about

by proplog2 in

jw
friends

jws are generally afraid to discuss prophecy with each other.

they are reluctant to express their.

feelings because they dont want to look like they are doing independent thinking.

proplog2

Actually the disjointed talk Ciro Aucilino gave after Sept 11 is typical of the JW conversations. It's like they are wandering through a maze and have to keep retracing their steps to see how they got to this point in time.

8

What JW's are thinking about

by proplog2 in

jw
friends

jws are generally afraid to discuss prophecy with each other.

they are reluctant to express their.

feelings because they dont want to look like they are doing independent thinking.

proplog2

One of the things a person should consider before leaving is the impact they might be able to have on people as an insider vs. being an outsider.

Most JW's are messing up on the "rules", but they won't reveal their feelings unless they can trust you. For instance R rated movies. The only people who don't see R rated movies are those over 60 or those who have young children. Once a JW realizes that you aren't a fanatic they will let down the barrier. You have to watch it though. Some people tell too much and then their conscience bothers them. These people will tell on themselves and YOU too.

Through my teen age kids I learned a lot of garbage on the Elders. The Elder's kids are usually the worst. They have been steeped in hypocrisy and know how to play the game. Since teens like to "out" their parents to get even with them - their teen friends get to hear all the dirt that goes on behind closed doors.

It's interesting to watch a presiding overseer get up in front of the congregation telling everyone to use language that pleases Jehovah and you know from their kids that their vocabulary is filled with f--k, s--t, b-t-h etc. along with sp-c, n-gg-r, etc.

Wonder why the young people leave???

8

What JW's are thinking about

by proplog2 in

jw
friends

jws are generally afraid to discuss prophecy with each other.

they are reluctant to express their.

feelings because they dont want to look like they are doing independent thinking.

proplog2

JW’s are generally afraid to discuss prophecy with each other. They are reluctant to express their
feelings because they don’t want to look like they are doing “independent thinking”. Occasionally
late hours at a social gathering or perhaps a couple of drinks will open the door to an open
exchange of opinions on prophecy. A little encouragement by a renegade is all that is needed to
get things going. I must confess this has gotten to be one of my favorite pastimes at JW’s social
gatherings.

It is simply a matter of asking some of the same questions JW’s use to get a conversation going
with a householder in field service. “So, what do you make of current events?” “Do you think
you are going to see the end in your lifetime?” “Do you think we will ever give a thorough
witness to Moslems and Chinese?” “

Half the people I talk to, ( in their late mid to late 40's) figure they will probably die before the
end gets here. Most of the people figure the work is fairly advanced in China although
underground. As for the Moslems, they figure they have had their chance and have rejected the
truth as a community. The really strange conversations center around trying to fit world events
into the Watchtower prophetic paradigm. What’s going to get the governments to turn on false
religion? Some feel its going to be a worldwide economic collapse that will make the
governments raid the Church treasuries. Others feel that religious sponsored terrorism such as
September 11 will eventually bring all the governments together to ban religion. Another
question that generates endless speculation is the identity of the King of the North. No one
believes its Russia. A lot of witnesses think its China. Quite a few think its Iraq. Still others
speculate that it will be a United Europe.

What is strange is that the conversation always ends up the same. We just have to wait ‘til the
faithful slave reveals what’s going to happen. Does it occur to them that the Watchtower writers
are just as confused as they are? If the “slave” really has special insight and the end is “really
close” why is the vision so fuzzy?

4

More psych. stuff for Waiting and others

by larc in

jw
friends

waiting,.

on the self esteem thread you brought up some psych.

stuff, which i did not comment on, because the discussion took a different direction, so let me refer to my notes and i will put some reply stuff.. blank slate at birth: used to be the prevailing thought but it is now known theat we are prewired to be receptive to certain kinds of learning.

proplog2

Larc:

Temperament theory interests me. I see people as love,wisdom,justice or power people.

Love = Phlegmatic
Wisdom = Sanguinic
Justice = Melancholic
Power = Choleric

This also underlies my feelings that there can't be a persoal God. Personality is marked by both an excess in one or more aspects and a deficiency in others. When a person exhibits equal weight on all of the dimensions of a test it is usually an indication that they need to re-test.

7

Roman Empire Still Alive and Kicking

by Defender in

jw
friends

there has been a lot of discussion here about the succession of world powers and where we are now in the timeline of things especially when compared to scriptural prophecies.. of interest is daniel's interpretation of the dream that king nebuchadnezzar had of a large image recorded in chapter 2:40.

"and as for the fourth kingdom, it will prove to be strong like iron.

forasmuch as iron is crushing and grinding everything else, so like iron that shatters, it will crush and shatter even all these.

proplog2

Britain was anti-Rome. After Rome left Britain it tried but could never get things back to normal in Gaul which was a prerequisite for reestablishing itself in Britain - accross the channel.

Henry the VIII now there was a pro Roman Brit! The Watchtower has an amusing view of history.

If there ever was a successor to the Roman Empire you would have to look to Russia. They even considered Moscow to be the 3rd Rome. The Russian style of rule is Roman. They used their iron fist to beat people on their borders into submission. That's how Russia got to be the biggest land empire the world has known - stretching accross 11 time zones.

Modern history has shown up Russia's biggest weakness - it is in a continuous state of falling apart due to its 100+ nationalities. It still has the strength of iron - the ability to obliterate any serious enemy with its nuclear arsenal. The USA would never consider attacking Russia like it did Serbia or Iraq. There is still nuclear parity between Russia and the USA. As much as both want to declare the cold war is over you just have to ask what are the targets of their missiles.