Posts by Bobcat

22

The "Sign of the last days" and 2 Timothy 3:1-5

by EdenOne in

i've just published on my website a new article: the "sign of the last days" and 2 timothy 3:1-5 (click to visit).

it contains a critical analysis of the context of 2 timothy 3:1-5 and a refutation of the connection with matthew 24:3, and therefore, of the expression "sign" + "last days".. the article is divided in the following parts:.

introductionthe composite nature of the expression "sign of the last days"the context of 2 timothy 3:1-5the message of 2 timothy 3:1-5two fallacies about the "last days"conclusiondue to its lenght, i won't post it in full here, only the introduction:.

Bobcat

Concerning the "last days" and how NT writers saw the idea in relation to themselves, I posted an analysis of the verses speaking of it here.

30

EVIDENCE that Christians fled Jerusalem after 66 CE ...?

by EdenOne in

what the ot says ... what sources of evidence do we have that account for the 'great escape' of the christians from jerusalem after cestius gallus siege of 66 ce ?

do we have any christian prespective about it?

since i concluded that all nt books were concluded before 66 ce (including revelation), what do we have in order to support the story that the jerusalem christians ran to pela ...etc....?

Bobcat

Cold Steel:

Just came across your post above. Thanks! Very interesting reading.

Take Care

3

Why do the Jehovah's Witnesses focus on one meaning of the word "brother" in Matthew 18:15-17 when in fact it has multiple meanings

by I_love_Jeff in

[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:officedocumentsettings> <o:allowpng /> </o:officedocumentsettings> </xml><![endif].

[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:trackmoves /> <w:trackformatting /> <w:punctuationkerning /> <w:validateagainstschemas /> <w:saveifxmlinvalid>false</w:saveifxmlinvalid> <w:ignoremixedcontent>false</w:ignoremixedcontent> <w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext>false</w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext> <w:donotpromoteqf /> <w:lidthemeother>en-us</w:lidthemeother> <w:lidthemeasian>x-none</w:lidthemeasian> <w:lidthemecomplexscript>x-none</w:lidthemecomplexscript> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> <w:dontgrowautofit /> <w:splitpgbreakandparamark /> <w:enableopentypekerning /> <w:dontflipmirrorindents /> <w:overridetablestylehps /> </w:compatibility> <m:mathpr> <m:mathfont m:val="cambria math" /> <m:brkbin m:val="before" /> <m:brkbinsub m:val="--" /> <m:smallfrac m:val="off" /> <m:dispdef /> <m:lmargin m:val="0" /> <m:rmargin m:val="0" /> <m:defjc m:val="centergroup" /> <m:wrapindent m:val="1440" /> <m:intlim m:val="subsup" /> <m:narylim m:val="undovr" /> </m:mathpr></w:worddocument> </xml><!

[endif][if gte mso 10]> <style> /* style definitions */ table.msonormaltable {mso-style-name:"table normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:8.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:107%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif].

Bobcat

Here is how R. T. France translates the passage in the NICNT-Matthew commentary (p. 689). See if you can find the significant difference between his rendering and the NWT (and many other translations):

15 But if your brother or sister sins, go and confront them, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won your brother or sister. 16 But if they do not listen, take with you one or two others as well, so that 'every charge may be sustained on the evidence of two or three witnesses.' 17 If they refuse to listen to them, speak to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, let them be to you lke a Gentile and a tax collector.

[End of quote]

Note that France renders adelphos as "brother(s) and/or sister(s)" rather than the more literal "brother(s). He does this to show that in modern lingo both sexes are intended by the term "brother(s)." So this is not the difference I was trying to point out.

The difference France points out, if valid, is revolutionary to the understanding of the passage (especially by WT standards).

7

JW´s original bible on the British museum?

by Mr Fool in

hi, a jw told me that the original bible from they have translated "the new world tranlation of the holy scriptures" is in the british museum.. anybody with a knowledge about this?.

.

Bobcat

Phizzy:

Although this is a little aside from the thread title, I've wondered if the purpose of the WT provided guides for the museum tour was to prevent JWs from hearing any real history related to Jerusalem and 607/587. Do you have any insight into that?

Thanks.

Take Care

27

God's Word for Us Through Jeremiah - Review

by Jeffro in

a recent thread about this week's study of the watch tower society's god's word for us through jeremiah led me to decide to review how much of the bible book of jeremiah is actually considered in that publication.. unlike other watch tower society verse-by-verse considerations of some bible books, their jeremiah book instead purports to impart lessons 'for us'.

key scriptures in jeremiah contradict jw doctrine, so a verse-by-verse approach was out of the question, probably having learned from their daniel and isaiah efforts that expose problems with jw interpretations.. one good feature of the watchtower library on cd-rom is you can search for a scripture, then find all the search occurences for where that scripture has been cited in jw publications, which made the process much easier.. in god's word for us through jeremiah, much of the bible book of jeremiah is ignored altogether.

in fact, less than half of the bible book is mentioned at all, and only 16% of jeremiah is actually quoted (including portions with the instruction to "read" the cited verses.

Bobcat

Very interesting. Linked this thread to here.

51

Jeremiah Source Material

by Bobcat in

i started this thread as a single place for anyone who would like to add references to source material, or anything else for that matter, pertaining to the jeremiah book study.. .

page 52:.

here is a thread and numerous comments concerning jeremiah 13:1-11 and whether or not jeremiah traveled to the euphrates to hide a garment.. .

Bobcat

An interesting review of how much of Jeremiah is actually used in the Jeremiah Book.

See thread with graphs here.

52

When did the Last Days start in the first century

by wizzstick in

i've been reading coc and rf highlights that luke 21:28 says: "but as these things start to occur, raise yourselves erect and lift your heads up, because your deliverance is getting near.".

i'm thinking on how no one who saw the start of these things is alive from 1914. as a comparison point, does anyone know when the wt suggests the last days started in the first century?.

was it when jesus said the above?.

Bobcat

The question by Wizzstick (the OP) was in relation to what happened to the Jews in the 1st century and if there was a corresponding "last days" that began in our time. It was based on that question that I gave my response on the 1st page of this thread.

But I wanted to map out the occurrences of "last days" in the NT and how the writer was using the term.

Concerning the term "last day" (note singular) used only in the gospel of John. It occurs in:

John 6:39, 40, 44, 54 (by Jesus)

John 7:37 (by John as narrator in reference to a festival)

John 11:24 (by Martha to Jesus)

John 12:48 (by Jesus)

Besides 7:37, all these verses, except for 12:48, link "the last day" with a then future time of the resurrection.

12:48 links "last day" with a then future time of judgment.

Concerning Martha's use of the term in 11:24, the BECNT-John commentary says:

"Martha's affirmation of end-time resurrection was in keeping with Jesus' own teaching (cf. 5:21; 25-29, 6:39-44, 54), which in turn cohered with Pharisaic beliefs (cf. Acts 23:8; Josephus, Ant. 18.1.3 ~14; JW 2.8.14 ~163; see Barrett 1978:395) and those of the majority of first-century Jews (Bauckham 1998b)."

Incidentally, the topic was commented on here in this thread.

Note also a similar use of plural/singular in Luke 17:26-30

The "days of Noah" compared with "the days of the Son of man." (vs. 26) And then contrasted with "on that day" in verse 30. Those "days" precede and lead up to "that day."

Concerning the term "last days." It occurs in:

Acts 2:17 Used by Peter quoting (loosely) from Joel 2:28-32.

The context indicates Peter believes that "the last days" had arrived.

2 Tim 3:1 Used by Paul.

The Society argues that these could only refer to some then future time. (See my 1st post here.)

But note in the context: Paul tells Timothy (in verse 5) to "turn away" from the ones described in verses 2-5. Verses 6-9 also tie in with the ones described in verses 2-5 and Paul describes these as already on the scene.

This argues that Paul saw himself and Timothy in the midst of the "last days" he referred to.

James 5:3 By James against rich Christians mistreating workers.

See here for various renderings of the last phrase.

The phrase could mean they 'are storing [now] in the last days.' The verb for storing is aorist. Or it could mean they are storing up for a future judgment. It is hard to tell from this verse alone how James would answer the question, 'Am I in the last days?'

2 Pet 3:3 By Peter referring to ones ridiculing the idea of Jesus' parousia.

In verses 1 and 2 Peter seems to be preparing his readers for the ridiculers, as if they were a danger to them. Indicating that Peter believed they were already in the "last days." In verse 5 Peter speaks of the ridiculers as having missed an important point. Again, indicating that they already were in existence.

Note Peter's reminder in verse 8 that the end of "the last days," during which they would receive the fulfillment of God's promises could still be some time off. (Also note the contrast between verse 5 and verse 8 - 'They failed to notice that, but don't you fail to notice this.')

Phrases having a similar idea to "last days" occur here:

1 Cor 10:11 Paul identifies his readers ("us") as those 'upon whom the end of the age has arrived.'

1 Tim 4:1 Paul speaks of false teachers in 'the latter part of the days.' See various renderings here.

Compare with false teachers in 2 Tim 3:6-9. Paul saw this as a then present danger.

Heb 1:1, 2 "The end of these days" linked to the arrival of Jesus when he taught on earth.

Heb 9:26 "At the conclusion of the age." See various renderings here.

Referring to Jesus' arrival to sacrifice himself.

1 Pet 1:20 "At the end of the times."

Referring to Jesus' life on earth which was the basis for faith in him.

1 John 2:18 "The last hour."

John speaks of it as already arrived due to arrival of false teachers from among Christians.

It should be noted that John uses "hour" idiomatically. In english it might be comparable to say "the last time." See various renderings here.

I thought I would conclude with a quote from the BECNT-Acts commentary (Darrell L. Bock, p. 112) concerning Peter's quotation of Joel, and his use of the term "last days":

The apostles read such texts as last-day, kingdom texts and saw themselves in the last days. Since the day of the Lord is also alluded to in this citation, what Peter is really saying here is that the coming of the Spirit is the beginning of "those days." An era of righteousness will conclude them, and that era comes with the day of the Lord.

24

Jehovah Will Put it in Their Minds

by ctrwtf in

jw
friends

just mulling over the demise of religion in general as we humans progress away from fear of the unknown.. i was wondering when some country or group will try to outlaw religion.

then i recalled how an all out attack on religion is what is supposed to trigger armageddon.

after 9/11 the first thing george bush said was that islam is not the problem, extremist terrorists are the problem.

Bobcat

Bro. Hawk:

All the verbs in Rev 16:19-21 are Aorist tense (Past/Historical), save for for the hail 'coming down' in verse 21, but the cursing that follows is Aorist.

The entire passage is presented or described as something that 'happened' after, or as the result of, the 'great earthquake' in verse 18, which itself is the result of God 'pouring out' the 7th bowl of his anger in verse 17.

Another point of note in the passage (19-21) is the use of polysyndeton. (The connective used is kai, rendered "and"/"also" in the NWT.) The effect is to produce a temporally sequential list of individual events, one after the other.

Thus:

The great city split into three parts (an allusion to Ezek 5 and the 'great city' of Rev 11:8).

The cities of the nations fell (paralleled in the 1st century by Mt 24:29/Luke 21:25, 26 - the Roman civil war of 68/69 AD)

Babylon the Great handed the cup of God's wrath.

Of interest is that the angel (at 17:1) takes John aside to show him about this. The explanation in Rev. 17, especially 17:16, 17, has political powers 'hating the harlot.' This may link their motive to what happened just before, 'the falling of the cities of the nations.' They see the harlot as a significant factor in the preceeding disaster, and needing eliminated. Yet what happens is put to the providence of God and his wrath towards Babylon.

The passage in 16:19 itself ('the great city being split into 3 parts') gives no particular reason for why this happens (other than there being in earthquake in vs. 18). But the allusion to Ezek 5 indicates it is a judgment from God against this "great city." The object of judgment in Ezek 5 is "Jerusalem." (Ezek 5:5) And the description of "the great city" in Revelation 11:8 is alluding to Jerusalem, or something pictured by Jerusalem.

I commented some more about Rev 16:19 on this thread.

The idea of God turning on religion I commented on in this thread (same thread, 2nd page, near bottom).

Whether a person believes God would actually do these things, or if the Bible actually represents God's view, is a seperate matter.

The WT explanation of Rev 16:19 is especially skewed because they view 19a (the great city) as being the same as 19c (Babylon the Great). This turns the rhetorical effect of "and"/"also" into nonsense.

I might also add:

The passage in Rev 17:16, 17 does NOT have God 'putting hatred for the harlot' into the minds of the political powers described as the "ten horns." Note that "the ten horns AND the wild beast" hate the harlot in 17:16. But God is only described as 'putting' something into the "ten horns." The passage says he puts into their hearts to give their "power and authority" to the wild beast until God's thought (about destroying the harlot) is completed. In effect, God sets the stage, and then lets the events take their predictable conclusion.

Take Care

52

When did the Last Days start in the first century

by wizzstick in

i've been reading coc and rf highlights that luke 21:28 says: "but as these things start to occur, raise yourselves erect and lift your heads up, because your deliverance is getting near.".

i'm thinking on how no one who saw the start of these things is alive from 1914. as a comparison point, does anyone know when the wt suggests the last days started in the first century?.

was it when jesus said the above?.

Bobcat

bttt

30

Beside reading Thucydides the author of Daniel read Herodotus

by kepler in

over a year ago, i engaged in a discussion on a similar topic.

it was titled, "has anyone read thucydides beside the author of daniel?".

since my annotated new jerusalem bible mentions a number of reasons why the text was probably written largely in the 2nd century bce to address events happening in that period ( the seleucid occupation and desecration of the temple), i was aware of a number of arguments for the case.

Bobcat

Yes, I appreciate being able to share ideas peacefully. You never know what they might unearth someday. (Darius might be Kilroy!)