karen,
Yes, they have both doctors and nurses on staff at Bethel. Could this be a legal arrangement for some medical treatment they provide? Or a tax shelter for some actions the doctors take? Probably no big deal, just some offical nonsense.
Posts by Seeker
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9WTBTS CLINICAL LABORATORY OF BROOKLYN
by Kent inwatch tower bible & tract society clinical laboratory of brooklyn.
the watchtower is running a lot of strange businesses, and this one is just an example.
they are listed as a medical laboratory by new york state department of health - health care reform act (hcra).
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8
Meeting After Meeting?
by NikL ini went to the meeting today with the wife.
same boring talk and coma inducing wt study but.... after the meeting they called all of the attendants to the back room for a little private meeting.
anyone have any idea what was going on?
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Seeker
Could be, but those sorts of meeting occur all the time at Kingdom Halls, depending on how active the elders get in nitpicky details. It could just be they were having problems and wanted to dress down the attendants.
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5
Not Open For The Public!
by Kent inthe richmond coliseum had some interesting meetings:.
< http://www.richmondcoliseum.org/html/julyaug.htm.
thanks to nelly for the link!.
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Seeker
Those look like district convention dates. My guess is the "Not Open For the Public" part was an error. They probably pushed the wrong button and the wrong category popped up and it wasn't noticed.
I mean, we are talking about dates in the past, and no special meetings occurred then. Don't those dates match the convention dates? If so, and since we know the conventions are most definitely open for the public, my guess is this is just a mistake.
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22
Did you ever have an experiance with Holy Spirit?
by Stealth ini have never felt the intervention of the holy spirit in my life.
maybe that is one of the reasons i never felt like a good christian.. i think someone can take any situation and say it was the holy spirit acting in their life if they want to believe bad enough.
i saw my mother do this many times.. anyone here had any experiences that they felt was the holy spirit acting in their lives?
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Seeker
Has anyone had an experience with Holy Spirit that couldn't be explained by any other source? That is, you'd have to rule out wishes, hopes, delusions, mental illness, hallucinations, lies, and other possible causes.
An instantly healed broken ankle would indeed be impressive if:
a) The ankle really was actually broken, that is the bones were separated and this was certified by a medical person, not just hurt like heck and you were "certain" it must be broken.
b) The ankle really was instantly healed, that is the bones were formed correctly again, the tisses and muscles were restored to normal state, and the pain was not only instantly gone, but permanently gone.
Similarly, stories where the person was certain it was the Spirit would need to be submitted for skeptical examination, not just taken on a person's word. At least, if you want anyone else to believe it, no matter how much it convinces you.
I'm not trying to be rude, this is a serious comment. I'm all in favor of miracles occuring. I just want them to be verifiable, since a person's word is so unreliable for so many reasons even if you are dealing with a perfectly honest individual.
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Revelation- Inspired or......A case of bad Chicken
by noidea inthe book of revelation is unlike any other book in the bible.
so many visions leaving many to wonder what do they mean?
supposedly, it holds the key to the future of mankind.. john had been through so many trials and tribulations.
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Seeker
The Beatles wrote some great songs while on LSD, with lyrics that we hum to this day for they resonante with us. So it would be no big deal for John, trippin', to try to harmonize with the rest of the Bible. Any good author could do the same.
I personally like the senile angle. He would have been very old by then, and could have written any old fool thing down and who would have the guts to tell the last remaining apostle that he had lost it?
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27
Looking for definitive answers . . .HELP
by patio34 inone comment i hear from my jw son a lot is that "the organization (capital o!
) is made up of imperfect men, so they make mistakes.
" what are some answers to that?
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Seeker
proplog2,
May I suggest you take your comments to a new thread, and not hijack this thread? If you do, I will be happy to show you how every one of your points fails to point to JWs as having the truth. I won't say any more about it in this thread, however.
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7
STARTING A NEW RELIOGION!
by StifflersErSlayersBrother inlightning, has just struck my brain..... im going to start a new religion.
im gonna call it "board" witnesses.
this board has become so addictive, i look at this as a 24 hour meeting whenever i want it (minus all the lies, crapy talks, and crying babies(well, most of the time))anyway, whos with me!
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Seeker
If you are starting a new reliogion, can I be either an eloder or a miniosterial serovant or a regoular pioneer?
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27
Looking for definitive answers . . .HELP
by patio34 inone comment i hear from my jw son a lot is that "the organization (capital o!
) is made up of imperfect men, so they make mistakes.
" what are some answers to that?
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Seeker
patio, this is one of the hardest things to answer because it's such a slippery topic. Let me demonstrate how a typical conversation will go on this subject, and perhaps some of the points I bring out may prove helpful:
Me: Why do you believe JWs have the truth?
JW: Because Jehovah uses our organization, and we see evidence of this.Me: How does Jehovah use your organization?
JW: He directs the efforts of the GB.Me: He inspires them, you mean?
JW: No, not inspires, He directs them.Me: Isn't that the same thing?
JW: No, inspire would me He implants thoughts in their heads. Directs means He nudges them with His spirit to find the right scriptures at the right time.Me: So when the GB writes something, it isn't coming directly from Jehovah?
JW: No, humans write it, but Jehovah directs it.Me: How do you explain mistakes then? Did Jehovah make a mistake?
JW: Oh no, never!Me: So did He mislead the GB?
JW: Oh no, never!Me: So who made the mistake?
JW: The GB, as imperfect humans.Me: I thought Jehovah was directing them?
JW: He is, but He doesn't force them, merely nudges them in the right direction.Me: So if they make a mistake, it means they went slightly off-course and Jehovah allowed it?
JW: Uh, yeah, right. But Jehovah always corrects them in due time.Me: What if someone corrects the GB in the meantime, with correct information?
JW: That would be wrong, because it would mean they are running ahead of God.Me: So sometimes the GB is teaching wrong things, but we are supposed to just go along with it since that is God's will?
JW: Right. Loyalty counts.Me: So sometimes you are taught things that do NOT come from God? But God allows you to think that they DID come from Him even though they didn't?
JW: Uh, well, no, it always is directed by God...Me: But later the teaching is revoked, so while it was believed it wasn't really from God, but from imperfect humans who went on the wrong track?
JW: Not 'revoked,' more like the light got brighter.Me: What about cases where the teaching really was revoked, not just changed.
JW: That never happens.Me: Sure it does. What about alternative civilian service. Russell had the right idea (the current idea), then Rutherford changed it to something the "Bible doesn't teach" (according to the most recent WT on the subject), and then in the 1990s it was changed right back to what Russell said.
JW: Uh, I'll have to research that...Me: Go ahead. And then realize that for decades, according to the process you said occurs, Jehovah allowed the GB to teach something that wasn't in the Bible, causing thousands of young men all over the world to go to jail rather than risk the threat of being disfellowshipped for something the Bible never taught. That's what you are implying, right?
JW: Uh, I don't think so.Me: Sure, if you posit that the organization is run by imperfect humans, but they are 'directed' by Jehovah in the right general direction, then it means sometimes they go off-track and teach things that "aren't in the Bible." You say Jehovah allows that for a time, but eventually corrects it. So all those decades of having young brothers go to prison rather than accept alternative civilian service was really Jehovah's plan all along.
JW: Oh no, that was just mistakes humans made.Me: But Jehovah allowed it, right?
JW: Right.Me: And if you said at the time that the teaching wasn't actually in the Bible, you would have been disfellowshipped, right?
JW: Right!Me: Because it meant you weren't loyally waiting on Jehovah to fix things, right?
JW: Right!Me: So that means it wasn't yet time for Jehovah to fix things, right?
JW: Right!Me: Therefore Jehovah intended for those young men to go to prison over an issue that wasn't in the Bible.
JW: Uh, no, He allowed a mistaken idea to take hold among imperfect humans.Me: And then enforced that mistake under threat of disfellowshipping.
JW: Uh, yeah....Me: So it means it was Jehovah's will that young men go to prison for an idea that wasn't in the Bible at all, but a mistake humans came up with, and so Jehovah enforced the wrong idea rather than correct the GB.
JW: Um...Me: And where in the Bible can we find a similar example of Jehovah enforcing mistaken ideas rather than correcting them among His people?
JW: Uh, I'll have to research that...etc. It's a slippery topic, and one you have to go in circles on before a JW will see the silliness of it all. I hope the above dialogue gives some ideas.
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35
Speculation on special October 7th meeting
by Seeker inwe have been discussing the special meeting being held in various locations on october 7th.
note, this is the day after the annual meeting, not part of the annual meeting itself.
reports have come in that certain individual congregations have been invited to attend.
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Seeker
I don't really know anything else other than what I've posted and what I've read here. I am hoping others can join in and add details.
With "unbaptised pubs" being invited, that might not indicate necessariy indicate "no big news", but rather that the "big news" is not "doctrinal" in nature, but possibly another type of "big news".
Possible. But you'd think they would have announced such at the summer conventions that have just now ended. The fact that they didn't may mean this is a new development that couldn't have been included in the conventions in time. If it's a new development, it probably is related to the coming bad publicity.
We'll see.
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93
"Mire of atheism..."
by Julie in:i welcome those of your quality of character and refusal to sink into the mire of atheism or deep cynicism, .
i found these words to be so interesting.
i have seen posts (albeit few) that discuss the bible and whether or not it is of god.
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Seeker
Hi Julie,
The thing about atheism is that you are free to examine and study everything under the sun without fear of what you might find. Nothing you find can possibly shake you, for if you find something that alters your world view, you merely do just that: alter your world view. No problem.
The believer, in contrast, is always at least sub-consciously aware that certain areas of study = danger. What those areas are vary depending upon which belief you subscribe to. To take a neutral example, if you believe in a flat earth, you had best steer clear of astronomy and geography. In Orwell's 1984, he describes how a true believer in the system would sub-consciously reject a forbidden thought before he had even thought it.
So when you question the world view of a Christian by questioning the morality of their God, you jump right into one of those danger zones for them. They absolutely cannot admit that their God could have a fault, so they automatically reject any suggestion that seems to indicate this. One way to handle this is to ignore the information. Another way is to attack the questioner. A third way is to wave the evidence away with a grand gesture and say 'God knows best. Who are we to question Him?' A fourth way is to create convoluted arguments that seem to explain away the atrocities until you look closer and realize that they were just using smoke and mirrors.
We've seen all four of those approaches many times in the past. Only very rarely do we see your kind of response: 'Yes, those really are atrocities, aren't they?'
Life is simpler as an atheist or agnostic. You need not fear any knowledge whatsoever. Even proof of God's existence would be welcome, for the atheist is such not because he or she has anything against God, but merely sees a lack of evidence for God. If such evidence were ever to finally manifest itself, they would gladly believe. So life is indeed simpler for the atheist, and much more complicated for the believer. And no, atheism is not a belief, but is a lack of belief.
For you believers out there who wonder how anyone could be an atheist, remember that you reject thousands of 'false' gods because you see no proof for Thor, or Odin, or Krishna. The atheist believes just like you...but also rejects the one god you worship because of a similar lack of evidence. So when you realize why you reject all those other gods, you will understand why the atheist also rejects your god. And that's true no matter what god you picked as the 'true' god, Christian, Hindu, Moslem, whatever. They all pick one 'true' god and reject all the other gods. They just can't decide on which is the one true god. The atheist sees no evidence for any of them.