Posts by Gamaliel

6

I just discussed the new UN speculation with my Dad

by Gamaliel in

jw
friends

from about the time of my da/df, my father went several years without saying a word to me -- and my mother held out a year or so longer than my father.

at my uncle's funeral my mother even pulled my father away while he was actually apologizing to me for never having spoken to me since the time of my then-recent near death accident.

(a car trying to run a light went around the stopped car in front of him and ran up on the sidewalk to offer me my first and only "out of body" experience.

Gamaliel

UD,

It's a great thread you started over there...

I don't agree 100% with all the statements made in that thread about the 6/1 article because the WT will always be able to point to "UN political connections" for any expected political moves made against global religion and then the JWs. They expect the UN/beast/horns to be behind the attack on JWs, but have never been adamant about UN being directly involved in the JW attack, which they expect from the King of the North. In general the K.N. vs. K.S. conflict has always boiled down to Totalitarian vs. Democratic world powers (or coalitions). It's a safe bet that they can still get some mileage out of that.

The 6/1 article does fit a fairly recent pattern, however, of "Watchtower weaseling" for their own political, legal and public relations agenda. I wouldn't be surprised to hear a few more public talks that express the UN issue in the same old 1950s-1980s terms -- same as it ever was. I would expect to see almost nothing any more in print, however. It doesn't mean that they'll stop believing. It will just fade out, but there will be a vague collective memory that there were things the WTS used to speak of that shows they still have special knowledge. Scientology, for example, has a lot of esoteric teachings that you'd be hard-pressed to find in hard copy, but some die-hard believers will always think that the understanding of those teachings is only accessible to a few "higher-ups"-- and this validates the intellectual side of that Church's power structure or hierarchy.

The more things change...

Gamaliel

34

Did You Ever Aspire To Be Anything Special In The Organization?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i never wanted to go to bethel but when i was a teenager, i wondered what i would need to do to become a circuit overseer.

Gamaliel

minimus,

Great thread. I have to admit I didn't expect much out of it. Glad I was wrong.

YOR,

Great comments. At Bethel, my job, my attendance at the Brooklyn Heights congo and a couple of friendships put me in close contact with a few on the GB. But it became routine, and I began to respect them less and less, the better I knew them. Also had an uncle in Circuit work, and my father always worked closely with COs and DOs. (Even my own father admitted that the Apostle Paul would throw a fit over the issue of "turning in our time.")

I just mainly wanted to add that I just spoke last week with two very knowledgable old friends from Bethel (both worked in Writing for many years). One friend especially talked about the aging of the GB, the subtle changes to doctrine for PR and legal purposes, the possibility of JW reform and mainstreaming the religion for survival. He sees very serious trouble. He mentioned the fact that the increases are now only coming from poorer areas that are not able to sustain monetary contributions. He sees money as a factor in their survival.

The problem is that JWs could still survive a good shaking. With Memorial attendance worldwide near 15,000,000, relaxed membership standards could allow them to count perhaps 10,000,000. Using that number, even a 5% drop per year would still leave them with 1,000,000 members in 45 years. I still remember when there were less than a million in my lifetime. Of course, a sustained drop will create a vicious morale cycle that would decimate them more quickly, but my point is that they would still have time (and breathing room) to start over, even if a few early attempts at reform don't work out.

I agree with the idea that JWs currently have a critical mass of problems, but they also have a critical mass of people (in more than one sense of the phrase). They could still turn it around and survive with numbers quite similar to those of Seventh Day Adventists, Mormoms, and many other "household name" religions.

I'd love to talk further about this.

Gamaliel

4

looking for a particular post on Esther

by Mulan in

jw
friends

several months ago someone posted a very interesting thread on esther and a corresponding myth.

i have searched and can't find it.

i don't recall who wrote it, but they named the characters: esther/ishtar, mordecai/marduk, vashti/mashti, etc.

Gamaliel

mulan,

In the thread quoted above, runningman posted a good summary of those issues from http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/ruth.html#esther

There are many elements within the story that leads one to conclude that the origin of the story was not from history but from an ancient Persian [Babylonian?] folktale.

* The very name Esther is a derivative of the Babylonian goddess Ishtar . In fact, the Aramaic version of the goddess name was Esther. Even her original Hebrew name, Hadassah (Esther 2:7), is closely related to the Babylonian word for bride.
* The name Mordecai itself is not Hebrew and seems like a derivative of Marduk, the chief god of the Babylonians. In Babylonian mythology, Marduk and Ishtar are cousins, just like Mordecai and Esther in the story.
* Even the name of King Xerxes original wife Vashti, mentioned in the Book (Esther 1:11-2:1) was not a historical figure. The real wife of Xerxes during the earlier years of his reign, according to the Greek historian Herodotus, was Amestris, the daughter of a Persian general. The name Vashti came from, you got it, Babylonian mythology. Vashti was the name of an Elamite Goddess.
* Even the name of the chief villain of the story, Haman, the prime minister in Xerxes court (Esther 3:1), is fictional. There is no historical reference to any ministers in Xerxes court with such a name. Furthermore, the name of the chief male Elamite god is Hamman.

I couldn't find the same discussion anywhere else on this forum. But I've been involved in some previous (more lengthy) discussions of this issue on the ANE forum (Ancient Near East). If you are looking for more information supporting the points from http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/ruth.html#esther, I could send you some info.

Gamaliel

4

looking for a particular post on Esther

by Mulan in

jw
friends

several months ago someone posted a very interesting thread on esther and a corresponding myth.

i have searched and can't find it.

i don't recall who wrote it, but they named the characters: esther/ishtar, mordecai/marduk, vashti/mashti, etc.

Gamaliel

I think I've seen it twice here, but the one you might mean is:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/35562/1.ashx

Edited to add -- and Blondie agrees with me...

Gamaliel

28

ALERT--ALERT--Randys Got Watchtower On Tape--Backing Bush! Money Laundering

by Voyager in

here is the thread you need: http://www.randytv.com/laundermoney.htm.

watchtower admits, from the watchtower's treasurers office, to backing bush, and engaging in political, military, and government programs.

laundering money through their holocaust fund.

Gamaliel

BTW, it keeps getting hinted at, but this isn't Randy. He just put it up on his site.

Gamaliel

6

I just discussed the new UN speculation with my Dad

by Gamaliel in

jw
friends

from about the time of my da/df, my father went several years without saying a word to me -- and my mother held out a year or so longer than my father.

at my uncle's funeral my mother even pulled my father away while he was actually apologizing to me for never having spoken to me since the time of my then-recent near death accident.

(a car trying to run a light went around the stopped car in front of him and ran up on the sidewalk to offer me my first and only "out of body" experience.

Gamaliel

From about the time of my DA/DF, my father went several years without saying a word to me -- and my mother held out a year or so longer than my father. At my uncle's funeral my mother even pulled my father away while he was actually apologizing to me for never having spoken to me since the time of my then-recent near death accident. (A car trying to run a light went around the stopped car in front of him and ran up on the sidewalk to offer me my first and only "out of body" experience.) I was in the hospital and disabled for weeks -- and yet no call from my loving JW parents, thanks to their trust in the holy spirit guidance of the WTS/FDS.

They've gotten 100% better -- and so have I. I still love them, but at least when I recall the experience above, I don't have to feel too badly about "troubling" them over their questionable doctrines.

I called him today. It started out with an expected conversation about a computer issue. I mentioned the "police state" here in parts of NYC, and he asked what I thought about the war. Wow! My parents have talked about mostly fluff for a couple years now, primarily so that they can stay on good terms with the grandkids, I figured. Still, I've never been asked an opinion about something political. That's tantamount to being asked my opinion about religion, which they can never do. So I went for it.

Dad already knew about Cheney's (and Schultz'?) monetary interests in this war, and I moved on past oil and restructuring dollars. I mentioned a Website that showed how Rumsfeld and other right-wing Bush supporters had already been pushing (since before the Bush/Gore election) for the fall of Iraq, the weakening of non-anglo European alliances and the impotence of the UN.

When he agreed to the UN, I apologized in advance for bringing up issues I'm not supposed to talk about and said that I have heard rumors for months now that the Wt will soon be dropping the UN issue due to recent events. (I think he still knows next to nothing about the UN/NGO issue.) He was uninterested until I mentioned that the 6/1/03 Wt says "we know who Gog is, but we don't know who will attack us." The UN is conspicuous by its absence. (Thanks UnDisfellowshiped for your recent post: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/50250/1.ashx ).

Since he was still listening I managed another volley. I said, maybe it's just speculation, but I think this information is accurate because when I had contacts that told me in 1984 that the "generation" would need to be redefined after 1914+70 years, it was redefined by the end of 1985.

We still managed to end the conversation cordially. He turned it back to the computer issue.

Gamaliel

43

My Memorial Experience-not so good

by wednesday in

jw
friends

well i just got back form the memorial, and well it was not all loving and warm like scobbysnax had.

two or three couples spoke to us, not one elder.

an elder came up to some people who had apparently just showed up for the first time, and they were all over them.

Gamaliel

((bigtex))

Recently my father was on a circuit assembly part as an example of "Christian fatherhood". It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

That experience is too sad to ever be funny. What he really needed was to be arrested while giving the conclusion of his talk.

Gamaliel

25

The Knock at the Door After the Prayer

by stevieb1 in

jw
friends

this experience is commoly related by jehovah's witnesses:.

a man or woman is desperately searching for "the truth" or someone is about to give up on life but before they do they utter a prayer to god and lo and behold a knock is heard on the door and behind the door are jehovah's witnesses.. these experiences are used by jw's to confirm angelic direction on their work and seems to reinforce in them that they have the "truth".. how does one argue against such personal experience?.

i am no longer a jw and no longer support their organizational teachings by the way, but i'd like to throw out the above question to you all for comment and consideration.. .

Gamaliel

stevieb1,

I was just praying that somone would ask that question.

You can't really argue with it. It's the ideal fantasy for the door-to-door work. If the stories never really happened, they would be created. But rationally, we could assume that anyone who is truly desperate will have felt that way over an extended period of time, and will likely have a better memory of the prayer that was "answered" than the 40 times they prayed the same prayer and no one came to the door.

Also, such people will be more likely to be home on a weekend than out playing with friends. They will answer the door for anyone just to try to break a depression or monotony or loneliness. Most of the JW door-to-door converts were temporarily "without a life" or "without an activity/religion" and what we had to offer must have sounded better than anything they had in their current condition. These same people wouldn't have given us JWs the time of day the previous month, but whatever got them down, got us a foot in the door. Timing is everything!

I assume that Mormons and others also use the same experience so I did a quick google search on the phrase: [end of my rope "knock at the door"]

Ignoring a few sites with themes or poems about Jesus knocking at your door when you're at the end of your rope, and a few other sites about some kind of bondage, I found two interesting ones that prove that these stories would be invented even if they never happened:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/6111/pneumatikos/dragnet.htm

Soul Patrol, a Christian youth skit about door-to-door evangelism ...
Sunday: After hitting every house for a mile and a half. My tootsies are starting to bark like dogs singing the blues. Mundy's shoes are about ready for a retread. We decide to hit one more house before breaking for coffee and donuts. We are tired.
Miss Guide: Well, yes. You mean, you're not my new spiritual advisor, and Rafka, "Channel to the Stars"? I was expecting them.
Sunday:
No, ma'am. We're the Soul Patrol. We'd like to talk to you about Jesus Christ, the only real way to eternal life.
[edited out a bit...]
Mundy: Yeah. Jesus shed His blood for your sins. If you believe in Him, no matter what you've been, no matter what you've done, Jesus will forgive you. You can start over again with a clean slate. But this time, He'll be there to help you do better.
Needy:
Gee, that sounds awful good. I gotta tell you guys, things have been so bad, I was making plans to end it all. You know, suicide.

http://www.homeandholidays.com/rs/pages/lead-vt-skit2.html (seemed to be unavailable, so I used the Google cached version)

Here's it's conclusion after a similar skit about Sisters on errands of mercy:

Narrator: Here's a common case. The visiting teachers just assume they're not important to the people they visit. And the people they visit sometimes forget to mention how much they love to see them. These sisters provided real help to the women they went to visit. Some of it was physical labor, but it was all a labor of love. Once they got up and got motivated, they felt really good about the whole thing. The spirit prompted these sisters to go and do their visiting teaching and at first, they ignored it. We want you to recognize your worth. Visiting teaching IS important. It's a divine program and this was a small example of it in action. The scenes portrayed here were based on actual visiting teaching experiences. There was a woman laying on the floor, begging for her Heavenly Father to send her angels on an errand of mercy. It just so happened that the Father sent the sisters. And believe it or not, a piece of chocolate cake, delivered by a sister, saved a woman's life. The woman begging for a simple piece of chocolate cake had been in her bedroom contemplating suicide at the moment her visiting teachers came in. The ONLY thing that would save her from doing such a sad thing was a single piece of cake. She was very specific in her prayers.
And there you have it...visiting teachers answer prayers every day. Whose prayers have you answered? Sisters, you are angels on errands of mercy. Recognize the divine origin of this program and take part in it with a heart full of song. Make the time to become friends with the women you are called to serve.

Hope it helps,

Gamaliel

38

My Dreams Have Been Indefinitely Postponed

by StinkyPantz in

jw
friends

i woke up to a banging on my door and much to my surprise, it was a police officer.

he proceeded to tell me that my car was damaged.

i was thinking, "great, someone must've busted out a window or slashed my tires.

Gamaliel

(((Stinky)))

I don't know if it's true, but I've heard that cheap cars still flood the market as soon as college lets out for the summer. And there's another flood of cheap cars are on the market as soon as college kids go back to school in the fall. It seems that Graduations in May and June are linked to a lot of new car purchases (as gifts) and a lot of used cars become available. Also there are a lot of college students who need cars in college towns but won't need them again in the summer when they go back home to their parents. A lot of these cars are picked up by students who are in the opposite situation which balances supply and demand in a fairly closed market. Watch the postings on college bulletin boards.

I've been watching the used car market for my oldest son who just got his license. We are fortunate that in the LIRR commuter parking lot, cars for sale are left alone in the lot all weekend with for sale signs. Just saw a 95 Lexus for $7,000 that seemed like a good deal, but for temporary cars, I've seen good (running) cars go for as little as $150.

My first car came from the college market, $25 and it passed inspection. The inspection and new license plates cost more than the car -- although that was several years ago.

Good luck, and I hope you don't have to let this get in the way of your education/career plans.

Gamaliel

40

I attended my first meeting at a KH!!

by playdrums in

for the memorial service i went with my girlfriend.

she's the jw.

i also brought my best friend.

Gamaliel

playdrums,

Good comments. I enjoyed reading them. I have gone back ot their meetings on rare occasions at a different hall, or even an assembly now and then when there was something I wanted to get. It feels more and more foreign every time I go.

Gamaliel