Posts by Gamaliel

2

Watchtower Society Dilemma: How do they keep the numbers UP?

by Gamaliel in

jw
friends

the society doesn't loudly report the number of baptized members.

it is more interested in average publishers, and then peak publishers in any specific month of reporting.

(the publishers can include children and those in the "pipeline" for baptism.

Gamaliel

They could start sticking bumperstickers on buses and strangers' cars, then wouldn't those bus drivers and car drivers become publishers even though they didn't know it?

[Why are you looking backwards to 1914?]

[What's my sign? --All the signs say 1914]

[Ask me about 1914]

[My "vehicle" started in 1914 and was inspected in 1918]

[In case of rapture, this car would have been a Model-T] (the resurrection was in 1918)

[Millions now driving, will never live --past 2014]

[I brake for Armageddon]

[Armageddon? Just around the corner and next to the blinking light.]

[My other car is...going to be the first Rolls Royce I find after Armageddon]

[You think you're running late? We've been waiting since 1914]

[The 1914+80 years generation ran out of gas in 1994 - but we've learned to run on fumes!]

[1914 -- running on empty, since 1995]

[If you think these signals don't work, try the sign of 1914]

Hmmm. If they could get someone at the License Plate offices to squeeze 1914 into every plate, somehow, that could drive up the numbers, too.

WE-B-1914

1914-MT?

1914-4EVER

CAR1914-WHERE-R-U?

TGIF,

Gamaliel

2

Watchtower Society Dilemma: How do they keep the numbers UP?

by Gamaliel in

jw
friends

the society doesn't loudly report the number of baptized members.

it is more interested in average publishers, and then peak publishers in any specific month of reporting.

(the publishers can include children and those in the "pipeline" for baptism.

The Society doesn't loudly report the number of baptized members. It is more interested in average publishers, and then peak publishers in any specific month of reporting. (The publishers can include children and those in the "pipeline" for baptism. The Memorial attendance also is given more importance every year, since it more than doubles the publishers.

But after they've already boosted the numbers by counting publishers (even children) and then tried out the new 15-minute reporting rule, to count a few extra publishers who might have perhaps become irregular and finally inactive otherwise -- what's next?

I'm thinking maybe they should look into a way to start geting credit for the memorial attendeers (MA's). They wouldn't want to take the whole 100% increase in one year, for fear it might drop the next year. I think they should do it like this:

2004: allow MA's to pick up a survey at the back of the hall that includes a question on whether they have ever promoted JW doctrine to anyone since last Memorial. (10% increase)

2005: hand the survey to all MA's this year (another 10% increase)

2006: take names and addresses and mail them this year with a follow up call (another 10%)

2007: go to their house, interview them, and fill out the survey for them (another 10%)

2008: change the question to "have you ever said the words: "Jehovah, Jehovah's Witness(es), or Kingdom Hall" this year in a positive context? (another 10%)

2009: add a supplementary question: "Have you ever mentioned the above words in any context whatsoever?" (another 10%)

2010: This year add: "What the hell? Have you ever used term "God" "Jesus" "Christ" "Lord" "Almighty" in any context, or any combination, swearing or otherwise? (That should get the rest of 'em)

Cheers,

Gamaliel

33

What do you think the cover title will be of the Jan, 1st, 2014 Watchtower?

by cyberguy in

.

here?s mine (he-he): armageddon, it?s closer than you think!

1914 and the "gentile times.

Gamaliel

"Where is this promised presence of his?

-- No, we mean, really , where is it?

Why, from the day my greatgrandfather* fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as from this organization's beginning."

*Great-grandfather, Bible Student "Colporteur" under Charles Taze Russell

Adapted from 2 Peter 3:4 -- "Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation?s beginning."

Gamaliel

108

"SCHOLAR" and UNFINISHED BUSINESS

by Gamaliel in

scholar,.

back on october 7, you said:i will respond to your response to the historical blunder made by franz and jonsson as alleged by me in a couple of days.. .

(the post was http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/59355/901501/post.ashx#901501 the thread was wts chronology(oslo hypothesis) from vicar;trinity college fellow,cambridge.).

Gamaliel

Alan,

scholar says:

Neither Jonsson or Alan F realized that p.208 in the Eventide is the 'smoking gun' which clearly indicates an association or connection of both 'times'.

Fuzziness is right! I see the smoke, and I assume there's mirrors -- but scholar still misses with his pot-shots at Jonsson.

Gamaliel

108

"SCHOLAR" and UNFINISHED BUSINESS

by Gamaliel in

scholar,.

back on october 7, you said:i will respond to your response to the historical blunder made by franz and jonsson as alleged by me in a couple of days.. .

(the post was http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/59355/901501/post.ashx#901501 the thread was wts chronology(oslo hypothesis) from vicar;trinity college fellow,cambridge.).

Gamaliel

scholar,

I guess the assumption is based on the reference already provided on page 208 (v2) when Brown says:

The times of these monarchies are fixed by the ?seven times? of the symbolic image, and by the 1335 years of the Mohammedan Imposture.... then must it be maintained that the forty-five years of Daniel are the period of the second judgment; and commencing in 1873, are attended by the sitting of that judgment, and by the general resurrection, the last hour of which terminates with the ?seven times? of the monarchies, and with the 1335 Mohammedan years, in 1917.... The Saviour himself, speaking of the signs of his second coming, foretels all these events; and upon that memorable occasion, when he predicted the treading down of Jerusalem, and ?that the Jews should be led captive into all nations, during the times of the Gentiles, obviously refers to the sitting of the second judgment, at which he is to appear as the Judge. [Vol. 2, p. 208]

Brown is saying that the 1260 days (622AD-1844) would fall within the 2520 days (604BC-1917). Therefore the Gentile Times -- being a shorter period of the "3 and 1/2 times" of Mohammedan monarchies -- had to fall within the longer period of "7 times" of the image which covered the time of rule from Nebuchadnezzar until God's judgment crushed the rulers in 1917. In other words, Jerusalem couldn't very well be trodden down by the Mohammedan nations AFTER God had crushed the rulers of the earth in 1917. So the "3 and 1/2 Gentile Times" had to fall completely within "7 times of the Image."

Is there something else I'm missing? Is that the extent of the "association"?

Gamaliel

108

"SCHOLAR" and UNFINISHED BUSINESS

by Gamaliel in

scholar,.

back on october 7, you said:i will respond to your response to the historical blunder made by franz and jonsson as alleged by me in a couple of days.. .

(the post was http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/59355/901501/post.ashx#901501 the thread was wts chronology(oslo hypothesis) from vicar;trinity college fellow,cambridge.).

Gamaliel

scholar,

OK. I don't have the book, so are you saying that on page 208 that J. A. Brown says something different from what he stated earlier on page 35, 48, 60, 105 and 170?

I have to assume the quotes that Alan made from those other pages are correct, since you didn't challenge them.

The Proclaimer's book gives me the impression that Brown equated them, but you admitted before that Brown never did, and that the Society never said he did. I haven't yet figured out in what sense they are associated. Apparently the definitions from AlanF's references are:

The "Seven Times" are 2520 years from 604 BC to 1917. (Nebuchadnezzar to 1917)

The "Gentile Times" are 1260 years from 622 AD to 1844. (Mohammed to 1844)

Now all I have left to do is find out how Brown "associated" the Seven Times with the Gentile Times. Am I right so far?

Now you do say there is more information on page 208. I am interested in what it says.

According to Brown the Gentile Times are the duration of Mohammedan power. Is this correct?

The times of the Gentiles then are the duration of the Mohammedan power; and when the period of that tyranny is accomplished, Jerusalem will be no longer trodden down of the Gentiles. [Vol. 1, p. 35]

They are 42 months or 1260 days, turned into 1260 lunar years which are The Gentile times are connected with Revelation and are forty two months of years, or 1260 years long, and they are lunar years, or 1222 solar years: 1260x(12x29.5) = 1222x(365), correct? [446,040 = 446,030]

the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled;? and their times are defined to be 1260 years, or ?forty and two months.? [Vol. 1, p. 105]

...are to be reckoned twelve hundred and sixty Mohameddan years, or 1222 solar years, which end April, 1844. [Vol. 1, p. 60]

The closest "association" I've seen so far is that although the two time periods are distinct, that they can both be worked into a larger chronology (by adding some extra years from Daniel's 1290/1335 day periods) that can ultimately both reach to 1917.

both these positions serve mutually to confirm and illustrate each other. [Vol. 2, p. 135]

But this exactly like JCanon saying that the 490 years of Daniel's 70 weeks of years are "associated" with the 2520 years because the beginning of the 490 is at the decree Cyrus decree and that although the 2520 years doesn't begin with the decree of Cyrus, there is another period of 70 years mentioned in Daniel/Jeremiah that takes us back to 70 years before the decree of Cyrus.

That association (and Brown's) would be a sham because the focus is on how even though they don't start on the same date or end on the same date (and are discovered in mutually exclusive time prophecies), they both can be used to support a "Cyrus decree" date in one case and a "1917" date in the other.

So I need to know what is different on page 208 (which volume?) that changes that focus.

Thanks.

Gamaliel

108

"SCHOLAR" and UNFINISHED BUSINESS

by Gamaliel in

scholar,.

back on october 7, you said:i will respond to your response to the historical blunder made by franz and jonsson as alleged by me in a couple of days.. .

(the post was http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/59355/901501/post.ashx#901501 the thread was wts chronology(oslo hypothesis) from vicar;trinity college fellow,cambridge.).

Gamaliel

scholar,

Well feel free to inform us of your reasons either in this thread or the thread where you originally said you would deal with it. There is no real urgency, of course, but the information that Alan provided directly contradicts your claim and that of the Proclaimer's book. Alan's information comes directly from John Aquila Brown's "Even-Tide". So I'm not sure what you mean about something else on page 208.

It appears that you are missing something. Carl Jonsson made some statements that turned out to be exactly accurate. The Proclaimer's book made some statements that according to the original sources, appear very inaccurate. I certainly hope you will present what you mean, because as of now, it appears that you are stretching the truth and then feigning ignorance of the actual point in context, to try to support a "connection" that isn't a "connection". Tell me that this isn't what you are doing, because as you have presented it so far, it gives every appearance of dishonesty.

You are damaging your credibility further, the longer you leave us with this as your only argument to date:

Yes, I believe that Jonsson and Franz have made a historical blunder which renders the Jonsson hypothesis as worthless. The fact of the matter is that the claim that John Aquila Brown did not connect the seven times with the Gentile Times is frankly stupid. The Society in its Proclaimers book stated that a connection of these events was made by Brown and is supported by Brown's description on page 208 of Brown's Eventide.

I'm sure you see why this is inadequate and I was afraid for a minute that you were presenting this as your actual argument. I think it is possible to make an argument that the Society in Proclaimer's thought there was a connection, and in some perverse sense, there was a connection in that they were mentioned together so that no one would misunderstand or misinterpret him and accidentally see them as connected. (In other words, Brown connected them only in the sense of saying the 7 (2520) times are not connected with the Gentile (1260) Times.)

Even if you could argue the word connection in some perverse sense that makes it mean the opposite of the author's intention, I still don't see how you can argue your main point. Your main point, you said, was to show that it "renders the Jonsson hypothesis worthless." Everyone can see that Jonsson was much more accurate and his statement does not require the "sleazy and perverse" twisting of the meaning of the author.

How does showing that Jonsson was more accurate than the Proclaimer's book make Jonsson's "hypothesis" worthless?

Gamaliel

108

"SCHOLAR" and UNFINISHED BUSINESS

by Gamaliel in

scholar,.

back on october 7, you said:i will respond to your response to the historical blunder made by franz and jonsson as alleged by me in a couple of days.. .

(the post was http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/59355/901501/post.ashx#901501 the thread was wts chronology(oslo hypothesis) from vicar;trinity college fellow,cambridge.).

Gamaliel

scholar,

Back on October 7, you said:

I will respond to your response to the historical blunder made by Franz and Jonsson as alleged by me in a couple of days.

(The post was http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/59355/901501/post.ashx#901501 The thread was WTS Chronology(Oslo Hypothesis) from Vicar;Trinity College Fellow,Cambridge.)

You made a claim you couldn't substantiate. Just wondered if you had come up on anything yet.

Gamaliel

28

Mother Teresa Comments WT 09-15-2002

by jgnat in

i have been waiting to see what the wts has to say about this little nun.

here it is in can saints help you?

wt september 15, 2002, introductory article, the modern appeal of saints .

Gamaliel

Newsday reported that Mother Theresa required the services of an exorcist on one or more occasions. Interviewed another Church official that backed up the story. Don't know what their motive was (in reporting this). Maybe it came from Hitchens' book.

I've got no problem with Mother Theresa. Seems like she was on the right track. I don't worry about Catholic motives, as long as they continue to build hospitals and schools and shelters and soup kitchens and things like that...I think it makes up for a lot of bad doctrine.

Gamaliel

19

Need Help With My DA Letter...

by shamus in

hello friends... .

i was wondering if you all could help me with my disassosiation letter... i am planning on writing it tonight, and am looking for scriptures based on "love"... and how the org shows a lack thereof.

any help would be greatly appreciated... .

Gamaliel

shamus

Confuse them. Say, I am temporarily withdrawing my membership until such time as Christian love is given the highest priority within this organization. I will let you know when I am a member again.

Gamaliel