According to the prevailing Watchtower wisdom (cough) when I was a JW, "celebrating" was tantamount to "worship". So I think it is clear why Neil uses the term "celebrated" when referring to his little Watchtower gods.
Gamaliel
JoinedPosts by Gamaliel
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129
607, 70 years, 1914
by crazies insorry for the long post!.
what the watchtower society says:.
24 the book of truthful historical dates ***.
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Reading WT & Awake for X years = College Education
by under_believer inhas anybody ever heard any witnesses utter that old saying "reading the magazines for 10 years [or whatever] is equivalent to getting a college education?
" a couple of things are amusing about this.
one is its utter and complete falsehood--what a crock!
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Gamaliel
A circuit overseer, [I forget his first name] "Brother" Harper, repeated it once every 6 months during his visits to our congregation in 1972,3,4. His version was:
"If you read every issue of the Awake! for 10 years you have the equivalent of a college education."
Now with the Awake coming out only once a month, I guess it would take 20 years.
My mother re-used the quote many times to keep us kids from taking advantage of scholarships. (I was the class of '75)
30 years later, she (my mother) just finished her own bachelor's degree to become a licensed teacher. My father always stayed pretty silent on this subject during what should have been our college preparation years, but always told us that Bethel was a more spiritual choice. He might have come across as hypocritical since he was accepted in 1964 as a "professor" at the university (with an "honorary degree" based on expertise and inventions). He kept his job at the University Laboratories until the 1980's. In our university town, 4 of the elders worked at the University, 3 as professors, 2 with full PhD's, which they both earned before becoming JWs. In the 1970's and 1980's the JWs were so proud of their PhD-holders that they fawned over them at circuit and disctrict assemblies for their experience. If a student got a teacher to become a JW they both became celebrities for the International Assemblies. (My wife was asked to repeat her experience 4 times from assembly platforms one summer in '79.) Yet, somehow, getting a degree AFTER becoming a JW was tantamount to a sin. -
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The Discoveries of Barbara Anderson - Eyewitness to Deceit
by Dogpatch inhey everyone!
yesterday, may 15, 2006, gyldendal publishing company in copenhagen, denmark, published an expose' about the religion of jehovah's witnesses.
the name of the new book is, "dommedag ma vente," or, in english, "judgment day must wait," written by poul bregninge of denmark.
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Gamaliel
Barbara,
Thanks so much!! That was the best Bethel experience I've read. And just in time to make the 2007 JW Year Book, too.
Gamaliel -
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just curious about Hebrew verb tense in Isaiah...
by lost_sheep ini was comparing the nwt & the niv the other day & noticed there's a discrepancy at isaiah 48:18 & 19... the niv reads: .
18 if only you had paid attention to my commands, your peace would have been like a river, your righteousness like the waves of the sea.
19 your descendants would have been like the sand, your children like its numberless grains; their name would never be cut off nor destroyed from before me.
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Gamaliel
I took Hebrew for 4 years in college but it's been half a lifetime of no use so far, so I'm just grabbing most of this from elsewhere. I agree that the NWT has misjudged the tense here, but this particular tense does give a bit of leeway.
The NWT says:
18 O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea. 19 And your offspring would become just like the sand, and the descendants from your inward parts like the grains of it. One’s name would not be cut off or be annihilated from before me.”
It's the "perfect tense" and translators are given some leeway between present and past, even between future and present for this tense. It is most often used of past (completed) action -- or present, but completing action. It is rare that it would be used for something more like a future subjunctive as the NWT does here, but I don't think it's impossible if the translator interprets the context to mean a continued condition. The near parallel in verse 19 uses the "imperfect" which is sometimes considered reason enough to translate this nearby verse as if it is a "continuing condition". That's a fair reason to imply that this is a kind of ongoing warning, therefore including the future. It should not have been limited to a future warning however, as the NWT translates it, because the emphasis is on a lesson just learned. There is no warrant from the LXX to move the tense from perfect to imperfect or implied past to implied future.
Note Young's (18 & 19): O that thou hadst attended to My commands, Then as a river IS thy peace, And thy righteousness as billows of the sea, And as sand IS thy seed, And the offspring of thy bowels as its gravel, Not cut off nor destroyed his name before Me.
and Darby's (19): Oh that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! Then WOULD thy peace HAVE BEEN as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea;
A quick synopsis of the "perfect tense" is here taken from blueletterbible.com
The Perfect expresses a completed action.
1) In reference to time, such an action may be:
1a) one just completed from the standpoint of the present
"I have come" to tell you the news
1b) one completed in the more or less distant past
in the beginning God "created"
"I was (once) young" and "I have (now) grown old" but
"I have not seen" a righteous man forsaken
1c) one already completed from the point of view of another
past act
God saw everything that "he had made"
1d) one completed from the point of view of another action
yet future
I will draw for thy camels also until "they have done"
drinking
2) The perfect is often used where the present is employed in
English.
2a) in the case of general truths or actions of frequent
occurrence -- truths or actions which have been often
experienced or observed
the grass "withereth"
the sparrow "findeth" a house
2b) an action or attitude of the past may be continued into
the present
"I stretch out" my hands to thee
"thou never forsakest" those who seek thee
2c) the perfect of intransitive verbs is used where English
uses the present; The perfect in Hebrew in such a case
emphasises a condition which has come into "complete
existence" and realisation
"I know" thou wilt be king
"I hate" all workers of iniquity
2d) Sometimes in Hebrew, future events are conceived so
vividly and so realistically that they are regarded as
having virtually taken place and are described by the
perfect.
2d1) in promises, threats and language of contracts
the field "give I" thee
and if not, "I will take it"
2d2) prophetic language
my people "is gone into captivity"
(i.e. shall assuredly go)
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I don't know if any of this helps at all. It seems to me to be a small mistake in how interpretation could effect translation, but not a terribly seriously breach of clear-cut rules of translation.
Gamaliel -
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Judah Ben Schroeder NOT finishing law school
by Seeker4 ina few weeks ago there were a couple of threads about the wts and higher education, and some stated that judah ben schroeder (son of the late governing body member al schroeder) was attending law school at columbia university.
i got an e-mail from a very reliable source today about some inaccuracies in those threads.
here are some quotes from the e-mail, which the writer asked me to share anonymously on jwd:
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Gamaliel
If this comes across as "name-dropping", I apologize. I consider it all loss at this point. But at the time I was "star-struck" with the Schroeders at Bethel. (BTW, Judah Ben is one year younger than me.
I hung out with the Schroeders literally from my first day at Bethel. Bert had the best after-Gilead graduation parties that included a lot of expensive food and musical talent. I went to the same congregation, which means the Brooklyn Heights congregation downstairs from my room. I also lived for a few years in the Towers Hotel in the NW corner room of the same size as the Schroeders on the SW corner. The only difference was that his had only two people and the room looked palatial somehow. Mine had 4 people and most of my eclectic furniture came off the local Brooklyn Heights streets. (Some of it fixed up through the Bethel Carpentry Shop.)
Judah Ben was a nice enough young guy. Neither of us knew any better than to try to impress our elders. There was much more pressure on him, of course. He couldn't join a great clique we had formed that centered around a few musical Bethelites and a couple of local sisters in the congregation, even though he wanted to. He asked me about it but it was too awkward for him to directly ask for an invite, and he seemed to think that his presence would put a damper on the fun for the rest of us. (It might have). Anyway, I thought he was intelligent and thoughtful to recognize this. He was 18 at the time, and was getting plenty of invites to gatherings, but not the same parties where he could really enjoy himself through singing or dance.
My brother and I were invited to join the three of them for part of our European trip in 1979. Dean Songer had set me up for a few days of Bethel work in the Athens Branch which extended my vacation that year to 5 weeks in Europe. We met up with them in Barcelona and at the Costa Brava/Costa del Sol. (They were traveling in "luxury", and my brother and I were backpacking with a EurailPass. I think we were having much more fun than Judah Ben, and he as good as said so. I know he would have loved to join up with us rather than be attached to his parents hips. (We were meeting up with different Bethelites for parts of our trip, and were getting plenty of invites to go here and there even though our backup plan was always the local branch office in England, France, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Greece, etc.
As far as being a "koine Greek genius", I think not. Not at least while I was at Bethel. Bert made a big deal about a couple people that were studying Greek, embarrassing at least one of those people publicly. He encouraged me to study and gave me full access to his office even when he wasn't there, because he wanted to loan me his books and commentaries without letting me take them out of his office. Bert had many of his own marks in his NT Greek books that showed he himself had taken the study seriously many years earlier. He flattered me by giving me some assignments to do research on NT Greek to try to find support (he called it "more support") for pet JW phrases like "house-to-house" and a few other items of dubious importance to me now. (My NT Greek is still very amateur.) I had an impression, though I don't know for sure, that Judah Ben was not involved in any NT Greek studies up until I was 22 and he was 21. If he began studying it after that point, it's quite possible he would have done well. He had plenty of resources.
That's about all I can say.
Gamaliel -
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How old were you when you were baptized?
by moomanchu in.
reading hellriders topic made me wonder about this.. i waited till i was 21 because i was drinking alcohol as a youth and didn't want to get baptized while breaking the law.
man that is screwed up, seemed reasonable at the time.
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Gamaliel
I was 10. 7/21/67. Was it not later than I thought, you think?
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GB new members...
by White Waves indoes anyone know the process for selecting the replacements for the 2 gbs that died?
have new ones been selected?
ww
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Gamaliel
Thanks, under-believer. I should have done more than just skim a few words of Fairmind's post before responding. It was obvious when I actually read the post that Fairmind was kidding.
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GB new members...
by White Waves indoes anyone know the process for selecting the replacements for the 2 gbs that died?
have new ones been selected?
ww
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Gamaliel
Fairmind,If you are serious, I just wanted to say that this was absolutely NOT true while I was at Bethel (when the GB program was just being implemented). It was denied to have ever been the case since by those who have known the inner workings since then. And it is extremely unlikely to be the case in any of the years since then until the present. If you were referring to the idea that such decisions might be approved by the actual "legal" members of the "Watchtower Society," per se, then you should know that they are not identified as anointed, although many legal members are considered to be "anointed" as that term is used by JWs.
Also, Watchtower articles were rarely ever "approved" by any group of people outside the Writing Committee of the GB. Many articles are hardly even looked at by anyone outside the Writing Committee. And there was often NO involvement by even a single person claiming to be of the anointed for many Watchtower articles.
Gamaliel
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For those of you who went to Bethel, how was the food?
by TresHappy inhow were the doomsday dumplings?.
seriously, was the food good?
i used to hear it was awesome; somehow i don't believe that!
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Gamaliel
unclebruce,
I thought about the Battle Creek connection when I was writing the post, and was wondering if it weren't Cheerios box tops I was thinking of. It may have been, but as I recall, the Cheerios boxes had only offered Betty Crocker silverware which was always(?) only discounted, never free. But we're talking 25 years ago - nearly half a lifetime, so far.
For trivia buffs: Who's buried in Battle Creek (Oak Hill Cemetery)?
W.K. Kellogg
John Harvey Kellogg
C.W. Post
Sojourner Truth
James White and Ellen G White
(I don't believe C W Post was actually an Adventist although he competed in the cereal industry with Post Toasties and Post Grape Nuts, and a competing health sanitarium in the same town.) -
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Truth and Understanding
by 777 inthe slave is not greater than the master.. jah the almighty was the first sacrifice as the master, where jesus christ was the second as holy or perfect sacrifices.
jah the almighty had to sacrifice loved ones in order to raise a perfect family in discipline and righteousness.
without rebellion there would be no need for discipline, there was rebellion, therefore need for discipline.. .
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Gamaliel
777,
Without addressing any of my questions, except one, you said:
"...Also, providing food at the proper time occurs during the end time when Jesus Christ takes his throne."
When do you think Jesus Christ takes his throne? What do you mean by "during the end time"? If you have already written or explained these views somewhere let me know please. I don't mean to make you rewrite your views if you have already put them on a website or in a series of previous posts.
Also, can you tell me what draws a person like yourself to a site such as this? As an ex-JW do you feel that other ex-JWs are a more likely audience, a more necessary audience, the nearest available conduit back to the Governing Body? Are you trying to reach JWs here? Confused JWs who left for reasons you think could be similar to your own? Do you feel that there was something obviously missing in ex-JWs who found their way here instead of back to the JWs, and that you have something that perfectly fills that "gap"?
You added: "A composite of many signs have been fulfilled and I relayed many message upon this forum and also to the governing body as instructed by JAH."
You must feel that the governing body has some responsibility because of some past, present or potential relationship with "truth". I think they are about as indifferent to truth as most any other religious group.
You said: "Please tell me, what is your belief as to fulfillment of any prophecy. How much longer cam man continue to reign upon the earth in wickedness? Which do you prefer, that the Kingdom take full reign or that man continues to rule?"
My personal beliefs are irrelevant. My personal preferences should also be irrelevant. There has always been the "ego of the current generation" to think that it must happen for them. This was already noticed by Bible commentators for hundreds of years. Each generation since Jesus has therefore produced the necessary prophets to make the claims that appeal to their generation's ego.
You quoted the NWT:
20 But on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them and said: “The kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness, 21 neither will people be saying, ‘See here!’ or, ‘There!’ For, look! the kingdom of God is in YOUR midst.”
I doubt that you are aware that the idea of "striking" observableness is quite nearly the opposite of the meaning of the Greek. The Greek refers especially to things that one might attempt to perceive no matter whether they were barely perceptable or not. "Striking observableness" was used here because it is an attempt to get rid of a Biblical idea that goes against the thrust of a major JW doctrine. The idea in Luke is that you can't observe the coming of the Kingdom of God through any perceived signs. Matthew, Mark and Luke all happen to agree on this point when they report that Jesus spoke of wars, earthquakes and famines all as things that might MISLEAD someone into thinking the end was upon them, when in actuality "the end is not yet". That's why the same context in Luke could report Jesus as saying: "Do not go after anyone who says the time is at hand." Yet, one of the most popular religious books in the world around 1914 was called just that: "The Time is at Hand". It was part of a series of books intended to convince people of that very thing Jesus said not to follow. Those books by Charles Taze Russell spawned an entire religion that could sweep all its many false predictions and errors away simply by refocusing attention on questions like yours above. "How much longer cam man continue to reign upon the earth in wickedness? Which do you prefer, that the Kingdom take full reign or that man continues to rule?"
I have no reason to get sucked into such ideas that happen to be precisely the kinds of ideas warned against in Matthew, Mark and Luke.
Relative to the verse in Luke which many JWs mistakenly think is about "striking observableness", you added: "The Kingdom arrived in the heavens and has been established. A spirit is not visible to man and this is what Jesus Christ meant when he spoke to the pharisees."
What you say might make sense if you are saying the Kingdom had already arrived when Jesus had said those words. If anyone thinks he meant some time around 1914 or today, then of course, your explanation would make no sense. It would be senseless. So, may I ask if you believe the Kingdom arrived back when Jesus stated those words? Since a spirit is invisible, does this fit the idea that there would be no signs to look for after that point? Or do you still think that one might observe signs after that date that would indicate the coming of the kingdom? Or do you believe that we are in the same situation as the wicked generation that would get no sign beyond the sign of Jonah - referring to Jesus in the belly of the earth for parts of three days?