Posts by tergiversator

71

When and where baptized

by drahcir yarrum in

jw
friends

i thought it might be interesting to see how many here remember where and when they were baptised into the borg.

for some the memory may be too painful, but i'm curious.. me.

it was 1966 in vancouver, bc.

tergiversator

Dec. 31, 1994. (What would have been my thirteenth birthday if we hadn't stopped celebrating them at 4.)

A fairly cold day even for central California, and it was a frigid walk back from the outdoor pool. There were a dozen or so baptized at the circuit assembly, and I was the youngest one. First one out in the pool, too, followed by my older brother. (And I wonder when he would've chosen to get baptized if I hadn't...?) I was absolutely sure it was the right thing, and not a little proud of myself for figuring out the truth so young. Sigh...

-T. (of the Never Make Seven Irrevocable Life Decisions Before Breakfast class)

2

Shaken Faith Can Worsen Poor Health

by tergiversator in

jw
friends

study suggests shaken faith can worsen poor health.

from the new york times:.

* http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/13/health/psychology/13reli.html.

tergiversator

Hi somebody,

I should've thought of that! Oh well, thanks for posting the article, maybe there'll be some discussion now that the laziness barrier is lowered.

-T.

2

Shaken Faith Can Worsen Poor Health

by tergiversator in

jw
friends

study suggests shaken faith can worsen poor health.

from the new york times:.

* http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/13/health/psychology/13reli.html.

tergiversator

Study Suggests Shaken Faith Can Worsen Poor Health

From the New York Times:
* http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/13/health/psychology/13RELI.html

"Religion and good health go hand in hand. Or so some researchers have asserted in studies over the last half decade, saying that people who attend church regularly, pray or are otherwise involved in religious activities enjoy longer lives and other positive health benefits.

"But in a study published today, researchers contend that some forms of religious anxiety may in fact increase the risk of death among people who are ill..."

Although there are some criticisms of the study itself (mainly stemming from the rather low number of patients), it's interesting to see something scientific confirmation of what most of us probably figured out from our own experiences: excessive worrying about what God's going to do to us can be dangerous. Sound like any religion we know?

-T.

24

Happy positive lives after leaving

by tergiversator in

jw
friends

in response to the commonly-repeated myth that all ex-witnesses are bitter angry people with nothing better to do then attack their former religion, i thought we should set the record straight.

where are you in life right now?

are you doing things that you always wanted to do, traveling to interesting places in your free time, making great new friends, generally enjoying life?

tergiversator

Hey, wow, lots of good responses here... even GodRules, for showing everyone how the witnesses (and some other Christians, most likely) try to have it all ways: if you're a Witness and happy, Jehovah is blessing you; unhappy, and he's testing you; not a witness and happy, well, Satan's tricking you; out and unhappy, well, we told you so, didn't we?

Essie - I'd give you permission to put my post on your site except you already have something I wrote up there (submitted back on the H20 days, before I dreamt up the tergiversator nick)... dunno if you want people thinking you just recycle the same stories, eh?

Englishman - I don't believe you're anywhere near York? We'll be staying up there for a little over a week, with some time near London on the ends. Otherwise, it might be pretty cool to meet up, y'know, borrow your internet connection to check my email... er, ahem. I mean, get together and have some fine upbuilding association.

Anyhow, great stories, all of you. (Seeker4 - let us know when the book gets finished...) Keep 'em coming...

-T.

(edited to fix smiley)

24

Happy positive lives after leaving

by tergiversator in

jw
friends

in response to the commonly-repeated myth that all ex-witnesses are bitter angry people with nothing better to do then attack their former religion, i thought we should set the record straight.

where are you in life right now?

are you doing things that you always wanted to do, traveling to interesting places in your free time, making great new friends, generally enjoying life?

tergiversator

In response to the commonly-repeated myth that all ex-witnesses are bitter angry people with nothing better to do then attack their former religion, I thought we should set the record straight. Where are you in life right now? Are you doing things that you always wanted to do, traveling to interesting places in your free time, making great new friends, generally enjoying life? Do you have a better relationship with God, or, conversely, are you happier than you've ever been having left the trappings of religion behind? It doesn't have to be much, just a little something to show that there is a live after the witnesses - and it can be pretty darn good.

I'll start: I'm halfway through a degree in geophysics at a very good school, with plans for grad school at least. I have a wonderful never-witness boyfriend and two big, lazy black and white cats. During breaks we've travelled to several different places inside the US, and next week we're leaving for my first-ever trip outside (to England). I have no idea what I want to be when I grow up, but I'm not (very) worried about it. I'd like to go into space someday. I'm learning Russian (and Chinese, next term) because I want to (not because it'll help me speak to foreigners in service ). I took a term of karate last year, just because I could.

On the philoshopical/religious side of things, I am mainly relishing my freedom from always having to be so sure about everything. I like being able to ask questions and not knowing what sort of answer I might get. I think I understand quite a bit better what real Christianity could be - but at the same time I find myself more and more drawn to the conclusion that maybe there really isn't anything out there. I'd call myself an agnostic, but that sounds way too sure of myself .

All right, who's next?

28

Truth hurts

by Decidedly_Unsure in

jw
friends

i can't believe it's all a sham!

remember before i was baptized, i wondered onto a hostile site and felt a sickening dread, when i confronted the sister who studied with me she reassured me that i shouldn't worry, all the stuff on those sites are written by bitter outcasts who have nothing constructive to offer, "after all", she said, ""did you ever read anything upbuilding there?

" well, here i am baptized, back on the net 4 years later and wham!!

tergiversator

Decidely Unsure,

Welcome!

I used to wonder, before I ever doubted anything, why people didn't just move on if they didn't want the "truth"; but now I realize that it's often because there's no honorable way to leave. If you disagree with the Society, you can't just 'say in the manly fashion of the world, "I have found something which I prefer; goodbye!", unless you don't mind losing all of your family and all of your friends. It's hard enough working out matters of God and life and salvation, without having your support network yanked away from you just when you could use it the most. Some people do get bitter, yes; most just feel very sad and hurt and sorry for their friends still inside, and if they speak out it is because they don't want others to be as badly burned as they were.

As far as having something constructive to offer... as you seem to have discovered, there are hundreds of sites that expose the "truth" for the sham that it is. But after that? I would venture to say that most former witnesses have built up some sort of constructive belief system. Some are atheists or agnostics because the evidence seems to point insurmountably that way; others enjoy the closest relationship with God that they've ever had. Some decide they've had enough with worrying about the ultimate questions and just focus on living a good life. (And some, granted, don't learn their lessons too well and go back to other high control groups.) There is no common group of "opposers", really - just a bunch of people recovering from a mistake and trying to find their own right way in life. If you want to find people who are working on their post-witness spirituality, keep looking - you might be surprised how many there are out there (and, for that matter, on this board).

-T., of the More-sure-what-I-don't-believe class

14

How Long Did the Transition Take?

by troubled in

jw
friends

i was wondering, for those of you who have left the organization, how long did the transition take?

i mean, how long after you left did you feel up in the air, in turmoil, lost, unsettled?

long long before you felt comfortable with the decision and basically happy with your life?

tergiversator

Hi troubled,

I'd divide my departure into 5 categories:

~1 year: The Uneasy Stage

I was gradually growing uncomfortable with a few things, such as how I was told to treat my da'd dad and why organ transplants had been forbidden once. But those were my fault, and I was sure I would understand them, given time and research. I was also growing more and more distraught as I continued to be unable to make myself believe.

~1 year: The Disagreement Stage

I acknowledged that I didn't agree with the society on a few things (eg, evolution, the role of women), was growing to hate meetings and service and the publications, and finally just wanted OUT. But, at the same time, I was terrified of the consequences of "reinventing myself from scratch", and even more terrified that I just wasn't clever enough to realize a way out of my quandaries.

~3 months: The Decision Agony Stage

After moving out from home, I went all but inactive, showing up a few token times at my new hall but generally just working up the nerve to leave. Oh, the guilt at going to my friend's birthday party though... It was somewhere in here that I realized I was doublethinking myself into insanity and that, if God really did exist, he wouldn't want me to go mad trying to figure him out.

~9 months: The I'm Out - Now What? Stage

On Nov 16, 1999 (see, I remember the date), I finally decided that I, in good conscience, could not continue pretending to be something I wasn't and believe something I didn't. The immediate precipitation of this was reading online about all the many ways strugglers and doubters had been hideously mistreated in the name of congregation "cleanliness" and "unity", and I realized I had had enough. That was the first time in a long, ling time that I *knew*, deep down, that I was making the right
decision - even if I did couch it in terms of "well, given what I know now" or "barring future evidence to the contrary".

It took a while, even so, to work through all the residual guilt and fears. ( I half expected my boyfriend to say something like "gosh, they sounded pretty reasonable" when I took him to a meeting just to show them what they're like; he didn't.) Reading a copy of Crisis of Conscience (borrowed, 'cause I was still a little scared to buy it myself) was what let me finally let go of that last .000001% chance that had been nagging me. I still continued to be emotionally and intellectually agitated at times, though not to the degree I had been earlier, worried over who I was, what I really did believe, what I should believe.

~1 year ago until now: The Free At Last, Yippee I'm Freeee Stage

Somewhere in there (no precise moment I can think of), I realized that I just needed to take a break from all the ultimate questions of life, the universe, and everything (at least those for which 42 isn't a satisfying answer). I've got the rest of my life to figure it out, so why worry so much now? If I never do find all the answers... at least I'm finally able to ask all the questions.

I can live with that.

-T.

15

No Christmas

by tattoogrl333 in

jw
friends

jesus was not born on december 25??????

what is the reasoning behind this belief?

tergiversator

Hey Tattoogrl,

Back to your original topic, I noticed that you said you never were much
for holidays and cited some of the sillier bits of folk mythology. (Which
I agree are, well, silly.) I think, however, that there can be more to the
holidays than annoying inane little jingles that get stuck in your head if
you dare venture in public between October and January.

Some background: I can, just barely, remember my last Christmas at age 4
(and perhaps a little bit of the one previous). After that, my mother
became a witness. Her main holdup as for why she didn't become one a few
years earlier, in fact, was the holidays. (Or, as she now calls them, the
"stupid" holidays.) I think she had to make herself hate them, because
from all accounts her extended family had very close, family-oriented
holidays. Although she was raised nominally Catholic, religion wasn't the
prime focus of Christmas and Easter.

BUT: somehow, the witnesses convinced her that the coincidence of December
25 and the festival of some ancient bunch of pagans utterly contaminated
everything to do with modern celebrations. Pagan roots made it eeevil -
no matter how tenuous these pagan origins actually are, how much they
have been forgetten by 99.9% of people, how completely irrelevant they
are to both purposes people associate Christmas with today (remembering
Jesus on the one hand, and getting together with family on the other).
(And there's also the matter of inconsistency: how is Christmas more or
less evil then days of the week named after ancient gods, or wedding
bands, etc.)

I, a bright eager-to-please sort of 5 year old, agreed with the reasoning.
Unlike many (most?) witness kids, I never really did miss Christmas. My
mom was really poor right after she got baptized, and we probably wouldn't
have gotten very many presents for Christmas anyways. Also, she and my
worldly grandparents were good about getting us presents at other
times of the year. In other words - I grew up as best a witness kid can
hope to: not really missing the holidays, scoffing at their silly
trappings, decrying the commercialism and greed of celebrators, and
growing to prefer leaving school early rather than attend Christmas
parties. (Heck, I even wrote an essay in sixth grade on "Why I don't
celebrate Christmas", which somehow made its way into the Awake magazine.
I'll post a copy if you'd care to see it.)

That being said, I now realize that I missed out on a whole lot. I was
able to adapt to always staying out of school activities (I had enough
other reasons to be a bit of anti-social kid), but I know most of the kids
in the congregation struggled mightily. And I always had to be soo careful
not to "offend Jehovah". Were these snowmen I was cutting out for
Christmas, or just winter? Did singing Jingle Bells mean that I was, in
fact, siding with Satan? Should I eat candy canes, since they are, after
all, mainly associated with Christmas? I remember thinking rather poorly
of a girl in the congregation because she had Christmas lights (you
know, the pretty little white ones) decorating her bedroom. (Honestly! I
really struggled with these and other issues in elementary school.)

That's mainly why I would urge you to be careful what you decide about
Christmas (and the other holidays). I think adults need to be careful that
their own personal beliefs and quirks don't cause their children to grow
up too fast (like I think I did) and turn into critical, judgemental, and
disillusioned teenagers and young adults, which is what I felt myself
becoming. Because Christmas doesn't have to be just greed and silliness
and smarmy religious billboards reminding us that "Jesus is the reason for
the season". It is certainly not some demonic holiday originating with
horrible God-hating pagan savages. It can simply be an excuse to have
some fun and relax with your family, or to think about Jesus if you're so
inclined, or simply to be able to eat some of the cookies that a
celebrator brings into the office or classroom without having to go on a
tirade condemning the celebrators for following a pagan ritual.

And Christmas should not be a cause for your children (if and when
you have any) to always feel as if they are left out, the outsiders
looking in on everyone else engaged in innocent fun.

Take it from someone who remembers.

-T.

3

``Fine:" The Most Abused Word in a JW's Le...

by Room 215 in

jw
friends

hello all,.

is there any word more overused by jws than ``fine?

'' has anyone ever had the temerity to suggest that a talk or demo was ``awful,'' ``boring,'' or ``pathetic?

tergiversator

How 'bout "upbuilding"?

-T.

24

TatooGrrl and Her Tats - A Question

by Stephanus in

jw
friends

the mention by tattoogrrl of her tattoos and the discomfort they seem to produce in the r&f around her prompted these questions:.

*would the tats be considered to be a possible stumbling block to those "weak in the faith"?.

*if she gets baptised, will pressure be put on her to have them removed?.

tergiversator

If I recall correctly, there was an elder (PO? I forget) in my first congregation who had very extensive tattoos from some whispered-about past. The first I saw of the tattoos was some private (ie, non-congregational) get-together (details are fuzzy... I was only 11 or 12), which was when I realized I'd never seen him in short sleeves before. He always wore a long sleeved shirt and a suit jacket when doing anything witness related.

So yeah, I don't think the congregation TattooGrl is involved in will make her remove them, so long as she keeps them covered. But I think there may be pressure, subtle or otherwise, for her to change her attitudes about being proud of her beautiful pictures to being somewhat ashamed of the mistakes she made when she was "worldly".

Question: you mentioned earlier that some of your tattoos were dragons. Have you gotten any talk about dragons being bad creatures yet (vis a vis Revelation)? I would be surprised if someone wasn't shaking their head about this young lady with Satanic images all over her body...

-T.