Great story Stephen!
I expect it will be one of the most read on-line articles at the Tablet ever.
Regards,
Thirdson
'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'
Thirdson
JoinedPosts by Thirdson
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26
Steve Bates Article on UN/WTS in Tablet newspaper
by hawkaw insteve's article has just been released.. i have posted the particulars and links on the big un thread and linked below.. ( http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=13530&page=22&site=3.
the tablet is a clergy newspaper that is read by a lot of high up people in both main churches in britian.. congratulations steve.
his article is front and centre.. .
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Bringing Blood Up at the Airport! - (For Andee)
by Thirdson inthis piece is something i wrote up last january and posted it on another board.
but after andee started the tread on k-mart witnessing i mentioned this piece and threatened to post it.
it is rather long but it is rather telling.. my trans-atlantic flight home arrived at the airport 45 minutes early and i cleared immigration, customs and baggage claim in record time.
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Thirdson
This piece is something I wrote up last January and posted it on another board. Some may have seen it before. But after Andee started the tread on K-Mart Witnessing I mentioned this piece and threatened to post it. It is rather long but it is rather telling.
My Trans-Atlantic flight home arrived at the airport 45 minutes early and I cleared immigration, customs and baggage claim in record time. I called my wife to tell her I was early and she said she would leave work immediately and pick me up in 25 minutes. So with bags in hand I wondered down the claims area and saw that there was a JW counter with two ladies sat there. I thought I would spend the waiting time chatting to these two, especially as no one else was. Incidentally, they were underlining their Watchtowers for the Sunday study, and counting time I bet. I didn’t say anything about that. But there were lots of other things I could have said but I bit my lip as I didn’t have time.
This is how the conversation went, as far as I can remember. The transcript is me and the two JW ladies Sis1 and Sis2. It is not entirely word for word but the essential topics and facts are here:
Me: Hi, do you have any magazines to read?
Sis1: Yes, are you interested in our beliefs.
Me: Actually, my parents are Jehovah’s Witnesses and have been for, ooh, more than 20 years (true, but actually longer). I like an occasional read of your magazines.
Sis2: Are you from London?…England?
Me: Not London, but I am English.
Sis1: We have this nice book here (pointing to a paperback “Knowledge” book) It is all about our beliefs.
Me: I know a lot about your beliefs already, all I want are the latest magazines.
(They have several magazines scattered on the lower counter surface of various ages. Sister 2 finds a January 15, Watchtower in her bag while Sister 1 fumbles for some Awakes. After they mentioned something about the divorce rate and a brief conversation where I would loved to have said more I declined an Awake on marriage and asked for the January 22 copy on “Comfort for the Sick”.)
Me: Let me ask you something. I was reading an article in the British Medical Journal recently which I also sent to my parents. Is it right that Jehovah’s Witnesses can take all sorts of component parts of blood?
Sis2: (Looking shocked) No that’s not true we abstain from blood and blood transfusions.
Sis1: It says so in the Bible.
Me: Oh, but this article quoted a Watchtower magazine from June last year. It was a reader question or something like that.
Sis1: “Questions from Readers.”
Me: It said that the Watchtower Society allowed all minor components of blood including albumin from plasma and hemoglobin from red blood cell. Witnesses could take all sorts of things and not be excommunicated or whatever word you use for expelling members. The article also said that Witnesses could now take a blood alternative containing hemoglobin derived from cow’s blood.
Sis2: No, that’s not right. We wouldn’t take anything made from cow’s blood.
Me: The article said (I may be wrong here about the article but the statement is true) you have a support group, called “hospital liaison committees?”…they have apparently approved the use of this product for use on Witnesses.
Sis2: Well, I would not accept anything from blood.
Me: But you agree that other Witnesses could accept these component parts as a matter of personal choice and conscience?
Sis2: Yes.
Me: So is it OK to donate blood?
Sis2: Oh no, we don’t give blood it has to be poured out on the ground.
Sis1: It says so in the Bible.
Me: Isn’t that hypocritical? You can accept parts derived from blood that other people donate but you can’t donate your blood to help others?
Sis2: Err… I wouldn’t give blood or accept any parts from blood and I have faced this decision.
Sis1: There are lots of alternatives that can be used nowadays.
Me: Do you have a copy of any Watchtowers from June?
Sis1: No, I looked already.
Me: Do you have a card you carry that says what you can and can’t have? My parents showed me theirs, ooh, maybe 5 years ago at least.
Sis1: What did your parents say about the article you read?
Me: Not a great deal. They were pretty annoyed that I sent it to them.
(Sister2 finds her card and hands it to me…In my haste and regrettably, I didn’t check the date it was signed. It definitely was not new though.)
Me: (Reading the card and this is from memory) “…refuse all whole blood transfusions, red blood cells, white blood cell, platelets and plasma…” But it doesn’t say you can’t have minor fractions like albumin does it?
Sis2: (Not answering question) Do you know of any cases of Jehovah’s Witnesses who have died because of not taking blood?
Me: Yes, I have personal experience of quite a few cases. (Most Witnesses do, including ex-ones)
Sis2: (Looking worried) Are you a doctor? (I am looking worse-for-wear with 15 hours of beard growth, greasy hair, just off an 8 hour flight, dressed in check shirt, jeans and parka…very doctor like.)
Me: (Smiling) No, I work in Information Technology, but I did take Pre-Med at college. I know a little about the chemistry of blood. In the cases I know of, they may have died even with a blood transfusion…
Sis1: Well…!
Me: …but they weren’t given the chance of something that could have saved them!
Sis1, Sis2: (Silence)
Me: Would it be OK then to use blood scavenging techniques?
Sis2: No not at all. We would allow blood outside our bodies if it were part of a continuous flow as in kidney dialysis.
Me: What about storing your blood for later use in surgery.
Sis2: That wouldn’t be allowed.
Me: So your beliefs are set and rigid and you know what you believe?
Sis2: Yes.
Me: So you never change your beliefs then?
Sis1: Oh no, we change them all the time. (Honestly, she really said that!)
Me: So it is quite possible that the Watchtower Society could say in the future that the medical use of blood it purely a matter of conscience?
Sis2: It’s possible…but I still won’t have blood.
Sis1: We believe blood is sacred and represents life and must not be used…it says so in the Bible.Me: But why were the Jews instructed to bleed the carcass of an animal?
Sis2: (Blank look)
Me: What is certain if you completely bleed an animal?
Sis2: (Blank look)
Me: Would it still be alive?
Sis2: No, it would be dead.
Me: So you couldn’t butcher an animal that may not be dead if you had bled it first?
Sis2: (Missing the point) But where was blood used?
Me: (I know where this is heading) It wasn’t. It was poured out on the ground.
Sis2: It was used, do you know where?
Me: Blood had a ceremonial use under Jewish law.
Sis2: YES!
Me: But it wasn’t ceremonially used for every animal slaughtered for food. Let me ask you. What could a Jew do who found a dead animal that had not been bled?
Sis1 and 2: Nothing.
Sis1: They couldn’t use it.
Me: If you read the law you’ll find that they could give it or sell it to non-Jews for food.
Sis1: Well, they were people of the nations!
Me: Exactly, and we don’t live under Jewish law. Jesus came to abolish the law.
Sis1: But Jesus said you shouldn’t use blood.
Me: Can you show me in your Bible where Jesus said anything about not using blood?
Sis2: (Looking annoyed) It wasn’t Jesus it was Paul.
Me: I don’t think it was Paul either but it doesn’t matter. Jesus himself said regarding the law when criticized for breaking it, “If you knew what these words meant, ‘I want mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent”. I believe that you make the symbol of life greater than life itself and that you sacrifice your own lives and your children’s lives unnecessarily over a doctrine that is continuing to be changed and may well be abolished…
But I am sorry I have to go. My wife is picking me up in two minutes. I do appreciate your time and thanks for the mags. Do check the Watchtower article in June and you will read up on the law given to the Jews, won’t you? You’ll be surprised what it says about the use of unbled animals. Byeee!
************************************************************************************It was a pity I had to go so quickly. I got to the drop-off/collection area just in time to see Mrs. Thirdson pulling in. She got out to give me a big hug and kiss. I was so glad to be home to my life in the normal world. I hope I said just enough to make a couple of Witnesses think about their own beliefs and research not only what the Bible says but read their own magazines.
Thirdson
Minneapolis, MN – January 20, 2001'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'
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Could I have your thoughts???
by mindfield inmore specifically, could you tell me your thoughts on verses such as:.
matthew 24:14. and could anyone give me some factual stats on the fact that jw's dont actually preach worldwide, or at least aren't recognized worldwide???.
and yes, i do need to be reassured!
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Thirdson
Hey Lionel from the UK,
Are you related to JRR Hartley? Or are you too young to remember the mini-saga quest for "Fly Fishing for Beginners".
OK, I bet I lost everyone now. I'll explain later if no one gets this.
Thirdson
'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'
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Could I have your thoughts???
by mindfield inmore specifically, could you tell me your thoughts on verses such as:.
matthew 24:14. and could anyone give me some factual stats on the fact that jw's dont actually preach worldwide, or at least aren't recognized worldwide???.
and yes, i do need to be reassured!
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Thirdson
Lionel,
I know what you are saying. However, I was answering the Watchtower's claim not God's.
Is the Creator, who even notices even a sparrow that falls to the ground, incapable of weighing the heart condition of those "sons of men" who, by reason of circumstance, fail to be reached by the good news in these last days of the last days?
I guess after the big A the world will be full of JWs, Arabs, Indians and Chinese people.
Thirdson
'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'
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Could I have your thoughts???
by mindfield inmore specifically, could you tell me your thoughts on verses such as:.
matthew 24:14. and could anyone give me some factual stats on the fact that jw's dont actually preach worldwide, or at least aren't recognized worldwide???.
and yes, i do need to be reassured!
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Thirdson
Try these statistics*.
Philippines 136,396
Germany 165,924
Japan 221,364
Nigeria 228,778
Italy 236,785
Mexico 533,665
Brazil 536,270
U.S.A 988,469
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Total 3,047,651These are peak publishers from 2000. Just 8 countries make up over 50% of all JWs worldwide preaching. 75% of all JWs live in just 22 out of the 235 lands they live in. Going back to the 8 most JW populous countries the total population of those countries is under 1 billion people. Therefore, 50% of all Witnesses are preaching to just 17% of the world's puplulation.
Now take India and China. Combined these countries make up over 33% of the world's population. What percentage of JWs are preaching in those countries. Using all the publishers from "other lands" (25456) to use for China combined with the total in India (22217) means that 0.8% of all JWs in the world have a territory of one third of the world.
Is this global coverage? When many Americans have harldy heard of JW's let alone what they preach how well known are they on the Indian sub-continent, central Asia or the Middle East?
Thirdson
*Source: the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania
( http://www.watchtower.org/statistics/worldwide_report.htm'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'
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British JWs ignoring the GB.
by dmouse inwhen we have american jw relatives visit they are frequently shocked at the difference between how they live their lives and how jws over here live.
its almost as if we are from two different religions.. that divide seems to be getting wider.
i have noticed in the past two or three years a noticeable relaxation among british jws.
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Thirdson
I think the variations are between individual congregations although some cultural variations exist.
I think the US is full off odd paradoxes. E.g. On British TV nudity is not uncommon, (you can catch British nudity on PBS in the US when it is considered "art") in Europe full nudity is common in TV commercials. However, you have to be 18 to see an "18" (R) rated movie in the UK. In the US you can see an R rated movie at any age with adult consent. Movie ratings are lower in the US but you can't see nipples on US TV even in documentaries (except if you are black and depicted in non-western culture).
These cultural variations affect JWs in different countries. What movies JWs freely watch in the US may only be seen by JWs in the UK on video rental (in secret).
I knew of birthday parties being held for Witness kids. In the example I knew of, in a neighboroing congregation, this particular MS held a coming of age (21st birthday) party for his daughter. It was a birthday party by the back door.
Generally I find the Brits more relaxed and less prudish than their US JW counterparts. I guess that's the Puritan influence.
THirdson
'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'
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Eighty five years ago today
by Skimmer ineighty five years ago today, on halloween of 1916, the founder, first president, and self-proclaimed jellyfish of the watch tower bible and tract society charles taze russell passed from this mortal vale.
some believe that he met his maker on that day.
others say that he met somebody else, and that it was somebody more commonly associated with the holiday.. at the time of his death, the self-appointed "god's only true channel" taught that:.
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Thirdson
Thanks Skimmer,
I would have totally missed today's significance. I truly believe that Russell was the product of the wackiness of the late Victorian age. And age of discovery but also of psuedo-science. Russell got caught up in the psuedo-science like pyramidology. The WTS legacy was to spend a long time criticizing real science while at the same time teaching the bizarre. (Aluminum dangers and vile vacinations)
Nothing of Russell's chronology survives except for the 1914/15 date but even that date's event has been substituted. While JW's claim Russell as their founder the religion we know today didn't really start until several years after the death of Russell. The Watchtower has been around for 120 years + but JWs haven't existed 85 years yet.
Happy Halloween,
Thirdson
'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'
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Help me... please...
by mindfield init's funny how 2 hours can make you question the doubts you've had for months.
just got home from the hall after speaking with an elder... had a friendly chat about my doubts... finally culminating in my admitting that i didn't believe the discreet slave really existed, and that all my jw beliefs were non-existent.
2 hours.
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Thirdson
Fedup,
I can empathize with you about the teetering back and forth over doubts, I went through a lot of that when I was on the way out. I read some things, think about it, feel I was getting back to believing the WTS and then I’d go to a meeting and realize what a sham it all is.
The things I dwelt on were the WTS chronology, eschatology and the blood doctrine. I couldn’t get over the 607 BCE date for Jerusalem’s destruction. No one else suggests that date. (Look in a few reference books) The reason? They don’t have to make it fit with 2520 years and 1914 as being significant. Without an agenda there is no reason to fudge facts and make it fit. Besides, the date used to be 606 BCE until they discovered that the math was wrong, there was no year zero. They didn’t change the end date, they changed the start date!
!975 was a fiasco, I remember that time period. I got over that but when the “generation” was suddenly elasticated to get it stretch past 1995 I realized that the WTS had not a clue.
Blood; ask an elder to show in the Bible that red and white blood cells, platelets and plasma are banned but components of these are OK. The WTS has no clue. The blood component ban is neither medically nor Biblically valid.
The elder asked who else is preaching worldwide. That is bovine excrement. The WTS preaching is not worldwide, is an utter waste of time and hardly anyone in even the most JW-populous nations has a clue what JWs believe or teach. Do the math. Take the number of hours wasted knocking doors and divide it by the number of converts baptized each year. See how many hours it takes to make a convert. Divide that time by the average amount of time you soent in FS. How long will it take you in years to make a convert?
Add up the number of JWs in India and China (1/3 of the world’s population) and ask yourself if JWs will impact any of those people in their lifetime. The preaching work is a money making venture and a means of controlling JWs. It is not an effective means of making converts. Christianity is growing in South America, Africa and Asia at a far faster rate than JWs convert people. Who is doing that converting?
Are JWs doing any good? Why not find out about the good that others do. If you live in or near a large city find out where the homeless and poor go to be fed. Go volunteer at that place and work with people willing to make an impact in the real lives of people without being judgmental about how or why the needy are in need.
Don’t feel bad. Don’t feel that you didn’t convey your doubts properly or feel you were suckered. Take time to think and research. Read the stuff on this board about the lives of the people here. Research the places others have suggested. There is a long way to go but the journey is great.
Thirdson
'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'
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12/8/01 Awake! help for Arthritics
by RationalWitness inon page 10 of the december 8, 2001 awake!, the article "hope for arthritis sufferers" feigns to offer encouragement to those afflicted with chronic arthritis.
note how the article describes some of the sad consequences of this condition:such limitations can cause frustration and negative felings about oneself.
gaku, aged 27, is one of jehovah's witnesses and says: "not being able to share fully in the evangelizing work or fulfill congregation assignments makes me feel that as a person i have no value whatsoever.
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Thirdson
Rational,
Thanks for posting this. It makes me puke but you do a great service by highlighting the dumb stuff still being printed. I can't wait for the on-line version to come out, NOT!
Gopher,
I hope you are doing OK at the moment. We should get together again. Are there any plans for an "apostofest" this fall?
Outaservice
Your comment about the sizeable number of JWs who don't read the mags is so true. I was a poor reader of mags when I was at my best. I guess I'd flip through the mags quickly, read about 25% of the Watchtower, skip the study articles knowing they'd need the 10 minutes of underlining a few weeks later and I'd read about 50% of the Awake. Actually, 50% isn't bad. I bet I don't read much more than that content of Newsweek each week. However, I enjoy Newsweek.
I used to cringe frequently listening to my FS partner try to place magazines on a Saturday morning. I'm sure the householder knew the person hadn't read them. Not the best way to sell.
THirdson
'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'
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The Big Five-Oh-Oh
by Thirdson inthis is my 500th post.
it has taken a long time and i notice i never get in the top 20 posters for any 7 day period.
do i count as a half-jedi or is jediness an all or nothing thing?
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Thirdson
This is my 500th post. It has taken a long time and I notice I never get in the top 20 posters for any 7 day period.
Do I count as a half-Jedi or is Jediness an all or nothing thing? I guess not a Jedi by any means.
As Obie-Won-Fernandez said of me, "the force is weak in this one."
Thirdson'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'