Posts by Journeyman

31

End within 2 years (again)

by road to nowhere in

an old elder friend from out of town stopped to see my ailing wife.

more than the locals do.

he said elder school emphasized 2 years and the existing body will be the leaders through persecution and tribulation.

It's quite odd, given how 'unified' the Org's teaching supposedly is - the same stuff studied across the world, for example - that so many individual elders, pioneers and other supposedly devoted PIMIs have their own 'rogue' speculations about when the end will come, how various signs will unfold, what Paradise will be like, how the resurrection will take place, and so on. Often, these individuals stand up in meetings and start to sew the seeds of their own speculation among others too.

Now ok, the outlines for these meetings are from WTHQ, so no doubt some of this is prompted by the Org itself, intended to keep the R&F hanging on, but a lot of the time the elders taking the lead seem to get carried away and go "off message".

For example, I've noticed increased encouragement lately from speakers to get the R&F speculating about what specific details of Paradise will be like. What kind of home will you build? Will you have a balcony overlooking a lake? Or a chateau in the mountains? What fruit and crops will you grow? What skills or talents will you work on first? It's supposed to be to "help" the R&F to have Paradise firm in their minds, but to me it seems more like creating self-centred desires and unrealistic - or at least premature - expectations.

Surely speculation to that kind of detail is "running ahead of" Jehovah and Jesus, since they will decide who goes where and does what, not us? Isn't that the same kind of "independent" and "selfish" thinking that Satan encouraged of Adam and Eve? Shouldn't we be "waiting on Jehovah" for him to determine how things should be done once Armageddon is over, not already have our own blueprints for our personal house, vineyard and so on?!

All it shows - along with these other "pet" ideas of various elders - that most in the Org are not really thinking spiritually, but for their own material gain or to promote their own theories of how and when "the end" will come.

2952

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

Journeyman

Into November now, and the slow but inexorable drop to 300 and below continues... 😂

19

Why didn't Watchtower go online with covid?

by Hellothere in

i wasn't surprised they didn't go online, i was shocked.

the perfect opportunity handed in a silver plate.

more time goes, more proof coming they took wrong decision going back to hall's.

Journeyman

Maybe sometimes we should actually believe what people say. The Org has never implied or stated they wanted to permanently stop in-person meeting or activity and go fully online - quite the reverse.

They always intended meetings should resume, and from the very beginning have been keen to get congregations back in person. They also still promote House-to-House as the main form of ministry (even if most of the R&F disagree and would rather not do it).

I don't believe they have ever intended to go fully online or fully virtual. Yes, you can make up all sorts of ulterior motive reasons for that (people less likely to contribute or remain PIMI if they are not physically involved, etc), but the simple fact is, humans are social beings. We PREFER being together in person.

Look at how even clubs, society or groups that begin online often start to form "meetups" in person. We just WANT to be physically together with people we share opinions and beliefs with.

So I don't think it's at all surprising that the Org has avoided going fully online, and that there appears to be no intention for them to do so.

However, the challenge they have is balancing remote/online vs in-person attendance in the longer term. Since they gave the congregations the option of meeting online (which they had to, due to COVID), they've been wrestling with the consequence that for many, it's an easier option than meeting in person if they're not in the mood. Heck, even a lot of Witnesses who are generally PIMI would rather follow a meeting on Zoom from time-to-time if they're tired from work, or the kids are playing up, or whatever.

Now that that cat is out of the bag, I don't see how the Org can put it back. The simplest thing to do is just leave things as they are, and let the ones who would rather use Zoom do so. I guess you can periodically give them a shepherding call to "encourage" them to come back in person, but beyond that, let them be.

Also, the fact they want to turn over their properties for profits and treat the R&F like pawns, shuffling them from place-to-place, yet they still expect them to show up en masse in person, is also a serious mistake on their part. Sure, people generally want to meet in person as long as they are happy - but when you piss them off, they will NOT want to be there. And that's what the Org is doing now, big time: merging and moving congregations, constantly changing teachings, inconsistent rulings and 'discipline' - and of course the gradual revealing of their attempts to cover up legal cases in various countries - all these things are turning increasing numbers of the R&F off and accelerating the falling numbers.

47

Leaked Annual Meeting Video: "Expect Sudden Changes" Jeffrey Jackson

by raymond frantz in

jw
friends

https://youtu.be/uxqqyrrffow?si=wo0jotyvjg76oljk.

well that's sort of related to the next talk on our program brother jeffrey jackson will discuss the theme don't be surprised by sudden changes, brother jeff you have our.

attention well i'm sure we all agree with this fact in recent years there have been a lot of changes even since the last annual meeting there have been many changes some of them perhaps are a little surprising or may seem to be sudden but you know brothers and sisters when we look back on how these changes have come we can see that jehovah has gradually prepared us for each of these adjustments and changes let's review some of the recent changes we've had what changes have we seen with regard to our understand understanding of bible teachings at the 2021 annual meeting we received an adjusted understanding of john 529 it was explained that the resurrection of judgment will not be a judgment of condemnation rather it will be more like a period of probation the unrighteous mentioned at acts 24:15 will have an opportunity to gain everlasting life but their names will not be written wr in the book of life at the time of their resurrection to have their names eventually written in that book these ones will need to respond positively to the great educational work that will take place during the thousand-year reign then at the annual meeting in 2023 we gained enhanced insight into what we do know and what we don't know concerning jehovah's judgments we learned that the door of opportunity for people to take a stand for the kingdom does not shut when the great tribulation starts with the destruction of false religion at that time perhaps some will be like the egyptians in moses day who took a last minute stand and joined the exodus of god's people at the same annual meeting we adjusted our views with regard to jehovah's judgments of those who died in the flood and those who were destroyed in sodom and gomorrah also at that annual meeting an adjustment was made regarding the reporting of our time and activity in our preaching work instead of focusing on reports we try to make good use of every opportunity to witness then we receive the 2024 governing body update number two in that update we saw the need to adjust how we interact with those who have committed serious sins and have been removed from the congregation what other major adjustments have we recently seen in our preaching work the emphasis now is on studing bible studies and making disciples not on distributing literature to that end the focus is on studying meaningful conversations not just on using memorized presentations were you surprised by these adjustments perhaps so but as we look back we see how one adjustment in understanding gradually helped us with the next adjustment isn't it true that gradually jehovah has prepared us and when we look back on it we see how logical this training has been to refine our understanding but events in the world likewise have changed it's true sometimes in the world you have sudden changes for example the pandemic but often times change in the world is gradual isn't it true with regard to the view of morality homosexuality abortion even what's acceptable and not acceptable with regard to conduct all of that has happened gradually in the world and it's not until you look back and see how different the world is today with regard to those matters that we see that there have been a lot of changes but this can be dangerous because as things gradually change we may get used to gradual change and forget that there are some sudden changes about to occur uh let's take our bibles please and if you turn with me to the book of luke chap 21 now this is an example of sudden change in luke chap 21 uh notice there in verse 34 the words of our lord jesus are recorded and he said in verse 34 but pay attention to yourselves that your hearts never become weighed down with oving and heavy drinking and anxieties of life and suddenly suddenly that they be instantly instantly upon you it's interesting to note that jesus had already said that this day he was referring to would occur at a time that we don't think is likely so what lesson do we learn from what jesus said it's a warning isn't it that we can't just sit back and think well things are gradually going to develop we know which way it's going and maybe it's not going to happen yet you know got a little bit more wiggle room there with regard to the schedule but you see that's dangerous thinking now what we're going to do is consider two examples of areas where perhaps we could be a little guilty with regard to that for example our view as with regard to the number of anointed ones remaining on the earth now for many years what did we think we thought well that number would go down and down and down and down now i don't know about you but me i you when that report came out just how many how many partakers and and what were we thinking we probably you maybe we didn't say it but we were thinking you know the number will go down down down down and there'll be just a couple of old guys in a wheelchair who will get their reward well i'm exaggerating but that was sort of the feeling wasn't it but now what have we seen in recent years those numbers have gone up and up and not only that younger brothers have been appointed on the governing body now i know what you're all thinking two new ones how old are they we know you're not googling now but you will be but you see we need to be careful about what we're thinking with regard to the number of anointed ones left on earth you see 19 years ago i was appointed on the governing body even i thought i was too young now they tell me i'm not so young anymore but do we see the point what does the bible actually tell us with regard to this well it doesn't say the number would just dwindle down to just having a few uh older ones left no the great crowd of other sheep will be judged on the basis of how they deal with

Journeyman

It seems that little to no real research is going on with GJ and his buddies, beyond looking at how "Christendom's" Bible translators rendered the Hebrew and Greek texts and adopting many of their translations. At least Freddie, oddball that he was, did some sort of research.

I agree. It seems there isn't enough imagination or forethought among the current GB to realise that if you start chipping away at the pillars of support for those earlier doctrines, the whole edifice is weakened and will eventually collapse. Then again, maybe they do realise, but just don't care anymore. There seems to be much less concern about what went before - even all the talk about "our spiritual heritage" that was common up until just a few years ago seems to have lessened. (Although they're only too glad to try to milk the org's history for these bizarre museums they keep setting up).

These days it seems the current GB are too taken by implementing their own ideas, celebrating themselves and promoting their self-appointed status as God's sole channel on their ~~televangelism~~ broadcasting channel and in video, to think too deeply about how their actions are undermining their supposed power base. But then, that's usually the fate of those who are too focused on themselves. As a certain saying goes: "Pride comes before a fall (or crash, according to the NWT)"!

35

Serious sinner?

by Gorb in

jw
friends

with the statement in the study watchtower this sunday, that stop serving jehovah is a serious sin, the following:.

- can i conclude now, that we, (i, wife and 2 children), since 2008 pomo and no longer active in any religious activity, are serious sinners for jehovahs witnesses?.

writing this in a watchtower, a statement like that, could have big implications.. it makes me so sad.

Journeyman

Journeyman:
resistance against God and the holy spirit is what is the serious sin.

This right here is the problem with religious posters on a forum for recovering JW's. Piling on the guilt and fear that leaving God or the cult is a terrible thing to do.

Shameful.

That was just a statement of what is Christian doctrine, which is supposed to be what the JW org is founded on. One can choose to believe it or not, but my point was about those who supposedly do (the GB) and how they use that as a starting point to take it further for their own ends.

How you choose to react to comments about Christian beliefs (or any others) is your business. I read lots of comments or views (religious or otherwise) expressed on here that I consider wrong or offensive, but it's not for me to try to control what is said or call other posters "shameful".

Besides, this is not solely "a forum for recovering JW's". The intro to this forum says it's for "those interested in ... beliefs or the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society" and "offering support for both current and former Jehovah's Witnesses and anyone else who has been affected by the beliefs, doctrines and practices of the Jehovah's Witness religion..."

Getting back on track, I agree with blondie's post, and Listener's, which is the essence of what I was saying. The GB take broadly accepted (by Christians) doctrine and insert themselves into it, and that's becoming more noticeable in recent years as they keep talking more and more about obedience to "God's earthly organisation".

35

Serious sinner?

by Gorb in

jw
friends

with the statement in the study watchtower this sunday, that stop serving jehovah is a serious sin, the following:.

- can i conclude now, that we, (i, wife and 2 children), since 2008 pomo and no longer active in any religious activity, are serious sinners for jehovahs witnesses?.

writing this in a watchtower, a statement like that, could have big implications.. it makes me so sad.

Journeyman

Actually, they've always taught that "independent thinking" is a serious sin. It's a clever blurring of definitions though, because really "independent thought" is not the problem (we have been created with that capacity), but resistance against God and the holy spirit is what is the serious sin.

In scripture Christians are encouraged to use their own power of reason to come to conclusions, and there are various examples of Bible characters challenging God for an explanation so they could understand why he was doing or asking for something, so just asking for evidence and having an enquiring mind are not sins.

Technically, resistance against God is the "original sin", because Satan first chose it, becoming a "resister" and "opposer", then Adam and Even also chose it. It's the one which keeps coming up through history, and will continue right through to the end of the 1,000 years until the "final test", according to Revelation.

However, while using your independent thinking to resist God is definitely a sin according to the Bible, that's NOT the same as thinking differently to a group of men from Brooklyn - but that's what the GB cleverly equates it to with this overreach:

Deliberately resisting God and his spirit is a serious sin
We are God's exclusive channel (overreach number 1 - no real proof of this)
Therefore, deliberately resisting what we say is equivalent to resisting God (overreach number 2 - even if the GB are/were being used by God, time has shown not all their pronouncements are right. Christians are encouraged to "test every inspired word", and even in Bible times, Moses, David and other ones being used by God sometimes committed serious errors in their words and actions.)

That fear of man got me laughing 😂🤣😂🤣😂
The of fear of Governing Body members is not fear of man. Dumb writers

True. Obsessively following the GB is fear of man, and the GB themselves are often guilty of fear of man when they suddenly change policies and statements to suit governments when they feel like it (especially if they think they will get financial benefits, or if they feel the HQ itself is threatened).

62

Ten reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses have the true religion (plus a bonus one)

by slimboyfat in

thinking back when i was a true believer these are probably the top ten reasons why i believed jws are the true religion.

1. they show love among themselves by not going to war.

not killing your fellow believers in any circumstances, including war, would seem to be a very basic requirement for true christianity.

Journeyman

Broadly, I agree with slim's original post regarding what led him to believe at first that the JWs had "the truth". Much of the same drew me initially, too:

Refusing to fight in war or vote or otherwise support human governments.
Use of God's name (despite the arguments over the accurate form of it, they still seem to be the only organisation that is actually concerned about it enough to try to understand it and use it).
Rejection of the unscriptural and pagan Trinity teaching.
Refuting of hellfire, and a more reasonable and logical teaching about death and resurrection.
Teaching of an earthly paradise, with a heavenly government, and so on.

One of the first warning signs to me that all was not as it seemed, apart from the massive 1995 about-face on the generations which many on here have cited as an influence on them, was the appointment of Sam Herd to the GB in 1999.

That's NOT because I disagreed in principle with appointing a black man, but older members may remember, it was around that time in the 1990s that many people in the USA, UK and Europe were beginning to get exercised about ethnic diversity and representation in boardrooms and senior positions of secular organisations.As a result, some were beginning to ask the same question about religious leaders, including the JW GB. It seemed far too coincidental that it was THEN that Herd was appointed. If the Org were truly spirit-led, why would such an appointment happen JUST at the same time "worldly" organisations were putting a spotlight on race in senior roles? Why not before, or later, or not at all (if ethnicity truly doesn't matter)?

This is increasingly noticeable every time new members are appointed to the GB - like just now with Jedele and Rumph - because none of them since are non-white either. Why ONLY Herd so far, and why at precisely the time when secular organisations were beginning to talk about increasing "diversity"?

Also - and in line with worldly race dynamics in the USA and Western Europe especially - how come only a black person (known as Afro-Caribbean in the UK, or African-American in the USA) was selected for appointment? You'll notice that in the worldly racial debates to date, the primary focus and attention is on the rights and representation of black people, not those from the Indian subcontinent, East Asia, or other non-white ethnicities. Likewise, the GB have not appointed anyone else of another ethnicity to date. It was then I realised the influence "fear of man" and "worldly" thinking really has on the actions of the GB.

Since realising that, it's been obvious that many other decisions of the GB have been driven by financial and socio-political motives, especially around the handling of money (Halls, Bethel layoffs, congregation mergers, etc), legal cases over moral issues (CSA and other criminal matters) and the changing of certain long-standing teachings.

A more godly organisation would not defend the indefensible in terms of sex crimes, and would be more compassionate to its members. However, in reality there is no such organisation on earth that is like that, as so many news stories and scandals of the past few decades have shown. Churches, cadet schools, care homes, charities, schools - everywhere there are reports of sexual misconduct and abusive behaviour.

As a result, I don't think the existence of such things completely rules out an organisation being used by God, but I do believe it means such an organisation is "dirty" and so still in need of a severe shake-up. The same thing happened in the past with the nation of Israel and even with some individuals and congregations in the first century. They got too selfish, too arrogant and assured of their own position in relation to God and behaved as they saw fit, but got punished for it.

The evidence from scripture is that "judgement begins with the house of God", so I would expect to see any organisation claiming to represent God be the first to suffer a "wake-up call" if it's not up to standard, and that's what we're seeing today with many organisations that claim to be Christian - including the JWs - starting to suffer losses and setbacks.

For the GB, this is despite their attempts to claim the org is completely separate and has already been "cleansed" and is in "good standing". There are so many examples of choices and events that indicate to me that the GB collectively are still facing a "wake-up call". That's why I strongly disagree with a lot of the recent comments in the org about JWs already being in the "spiritual paradise", living "the best life ever", etc, since that's blatantly not true. They are simply platitudes to placate the R&F and discourage them from asking questions about things that are still not right in the Org.

6

The Bible Does Not Say

by blondie in

jw
friends

the wts often uses the phrase about then follows with their idea of what their god meant.

i have p0sted some of the most recent.

it is worth a look at more.

Journeyman

The hypocrisy of their frequent use of the phrase "the Bible does not say", is that there are numerous occasions when the GB have presumed to know what was going on behind a Bible account when in fact - the Bible does not say! Sometimes they've even made rules or doctrines around these presumptions - often having to make embarrassing U-turns years later.

This inclination to presumption has of course become worse now that they insist on making regular videos and even feature-film length dramas of Bible accounts, because this necessarily means adding details that are just not known or provable, since the Bible accounts are not detailed enough to provide adequate material for film scripts!

A glaring recent example of that was making up a sister for Jonah in a Bible drama for the convention. Did Jonah have a sister? The Bible does not say!

Also, on another thread I recently posted an example that stood out to me from their "Imitate The Faith" book (which is supposed to be a biography of various Bible characters).

In the chapter on Elijah, the Org implied that his servant was sceptical about an incoming rainstorm prophesied by God, was possibly wondering what the big deal was, and may even have been reluctant to do what he was repeatedly asked by Elijah. Yet there is absolutely no evidence in the Bible account (1 Kings 18:42-44) to support these suggestions. The Bible does not say!

I can only imagine that the reason for the Org to cast doubt on the servant's faith was perhaps to make the reader think "would I believe if I was in that situation?" and also to emphasise Elijah's actions, but it seemed pretty lame to me.

There are many examples in the literature of the Org assuming motivations of characters or background to Bible accounts which are just not supported in the text.

3

annual meeting and Helene

by enoughisenough in

i was wondering if any on here watched the meeting and if so was anything mentioned about the disaster in the path of helene and the suffering of those people ( included jw ) just curious.

Journeyman

The org has had info on their News page up for about three days now on Hurricane Helene.

56

Annual Meeting live updates

by ukpimo in

i have obtained the live link for the annual meeting tomorrow:.

annual meeting live link.

the meeting will begin at 9:45am eastern time, for those of us in the uk, that will be 2:45pm.

Journeyman

I'm not sure about WWIII as such - that suggests a coordinated, global (or near-global) war of the kind we saw in 1914-18 and 1939-45, and because we're in the nuclear age, would be very likely to lead to near-total destruction of the world. Usually, that also needs a united cause against a specific enemy, eg: the Allies vs Axis powers. But the world is much more ideologically fragmented than that now.

What looks more likely - and in fact is already happening - is a series of simultaneous and overlapping major regional conflicts that encompass the whole world, while not necessarily all being fought by all nations. That would tie in better with Jesus' prophecy for the end times that "you will hear of wars and reports of wars".

As for "political elements" turning on "religion", there have been lots of tensions building in the past few decades that could lead to that. The global political movement clashes with most religious organisations over many issues, including creation vs evolution, abortion, sexuality and LGBT issues, and, as economic pressures grow around the world and issues of poverty and homelessness increase even in wealthier nations, the wealth of churches is also coming under the spotlight. Not to mention issues of legal legitimacy, with many religions resisting the authority of governments and states, some overtly (like Islamic terrorists attacking Western governments and even governments in Muslim countries that are not seen as "Muslim" enough, and other conflicts over religion in the Middle East and Asia), some more passively, like the resistance of groups like the JWs who will not join armies, vote, etc.

All these things are already irritating the political elements of this world, and are likely to continue to do so. Religion is rapidly losing its influence in places like Europe, Canada and Australasia, and while it might seem unlikely for the USA, South America, Africa and the Middle East to turn their backs on religion at the moment, there will come a tipping point where organised religion will be seen as the aggravating factor of all the intractable problems we have and that it will be a solution to unite people and break down barriers. Many people worldwide already believe this to be the case.